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How to decide to propose or not yet?


Sunlight72

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I've been seeing an amazing woman for 7 months. I'm 46, she's 29. We live almost 3 hours apart, and neither of us wanted to do the long distance thing. I go to stay at her home and take her on dates for 3 to 7 days at a time when I can also do a little work in her city, which is 2 or 4 times a month.

 

When we first met, she mentioned several times that she wants to get married and have a child. I have no children, and with her, I would love to be married and have a child.

 

We have talked about marriage quite a few times. She has also told me several times that we won't work out long-term, she loves me, and she wants to split because we are perfect and if we stay together, we like each other so much that we will just get closer and closer, and it will be harder to split later. That is, we are perfect except having a child.

 

A couple times, I've taken her at her word, packed my things to leave her place (with no drama), and had her ask where I'm going and do I have to leave right now? Why don't I just sit and talk a little more?

 

Then, she's quite relaxed, we have some nice small talk, and she'll get very affectionate and she'll lead me to her bedroom. A couple days later I'll leave, and we're back 'on' again, with her calling me 1 to 3 times a day (which I like). I call her maybe once each week, since there's no need or time for me to call more than that.

 

When we're together, she enjoys spending most of every hour together (as do I). I've met her whole extended family repeatedly and quite a few friends. She invited me to a close friend's wedding reception where it was only she & I and the couple's immediate family. She has cried several times when I've been telling her exactly how I care about her, and she says she has never opened up to anyone as much as to me, and that she has never let anyone see her vulnerability as I have. I think that's true. She's very stoic in public, and quite well respected by all her colleagues and peers.

 

As I say, she wants a child, and I had a vasectomy 20 (?) years ago. I've done a fair bit of research, and there's something like an 85% chance I could become fertile following a reversal surgery. When we've talked marriage the last couple months, she says either, "where's the ring then?", or more often, "have the surgery, and then we can talk about marriage." I've told her, "no way am I getting the surgery first. If we are engaged with a wedding date set, I'll gladly get the surgery. If it doesn't work, and I'm not fertile by a year or what ever the surgeon expects, we can break the engagement."

 

I know it's a strange situation, where with the distance we don't get to date so much as play house when I'm there. We can't really build up to more serious. It's either long distance, or living together. I'm thinking now of proposing, and if she says yes I'll move there.

 

She is incredible, and fussy, and beautiful, and exciting, and boring, and delightful, and she farts sometimes, and intelligent, and sometimes lazy (thank goodness), and sexy, and affectionate, and expressive, and independent. She seems to be very attracted to me, and love me as I am. I feel we are both emotionally healthy. We have yet to fight or raise a voice. We have had a couple problems, which we have worked out with adult talking. We laugh a lot together, and our lifestyles work very well together.

 

She has mainly had relationships with older men, more of an age difference than we have. She doesn't seem to respect or have much interest in men closer to her age. She has lived around the world and seems to think younger men are childish and dull.

 

I am concerned that she will want more money than I currently earn. I also think my income will increase if I move to her city, as most of my business happens there currently. But, I could be wrong and the money might not increase.

 

I love her, and am busting to propose. I also believe strongly that real love is built, consciously over time - therefore I don't think of engagement or marriage as the end result, but as the beginning of a chance to make a whole life. I've been married twice before, and they both left me (one 'discovered' she is a lesbian, the other didn't like being poor with me, so she decided to be poorer on her own. I'm over both of them, and last divorced 10 years ago). I've spent a good portion of the last 7 years learning about relationships and myself, and changing my behaviors and expectations about myself and women, and have had two good long-term relationships, and also been content to be on my own.

 

I've always wanted to be married. I thought a while back that my life was not going to end with marriage, and I was happy enough about that. Then I met her. She knocked my socks off. I'm very much feeling the butterflies with her, and want to be engaged and living together.

 

So - how the heck do I assess if I should propose, or if it's just lovey-dovey and great sex? What markers can anyone suggest? I'm not interested in months/years, I am asking what signals should I be looking for? I expect there is something huge that is more visible to you on the outside looking in, that I am not aware of. I absolutely do not ever want to get divorced again.

 

I am a sucker for being in love. I also am very giving and steady in long-term relationships, and I am not worried my feelings will fade with her. They are getting stronger and calmer as time goes on.

 

Thank you for any input!

Edited by Sunlight72
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The right time will be when the relationship gets stable i.e. no 'on/off's in interest levels and behaviors, just 'on's . The way how she acts (standoffish one time, close another time) makes me think you are far from ready for commitment being engagement or moving together.

 

Your age difference, although in principle is fine, is on the larger side. I was about her age (27-29) when I dated a man about your age (46-48), and although I was definitely the 'older soul' in the couple, the difference bothered me and I didn't want to continue long term with him. I had lots of fun, also lost my virginity to him and he thought that will attach me to him but it didn't work out that way. I just thought he's a fun guy introducing me to the 'outside world' since before him I was interacting with lab nerds 99.9% of the time :lmao:.

 

The vasectomy is a non-issue (it is reversible most of the times) but don't think about it before clearing things up. To me it sounds like she's like me in my aforementioned relationship and she enjoys her time with you but doesn't see herself getting old with you. Even if you marry her there are no guarantees she'll stick around, so don't rush it - before you see her being 'on' with you all the time.

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Ruby Slippers

I'd have one more very serious conversation with her, make sure she's on board with the plan to: get engaged, you have the surgery and see if you become fertile again, then get married if so.

 

If she's all in on that plan, then propose when you're ready.

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My brother had a vasectomy reversal and they conceived another child. It had been less than five years since his vasectomy, and the doctor told him that his odds were 50/50. I would warn you, given the length of time since your surgery, that your odds may not be as high as you think they are...

 

Otherwise, I don't think that you have known her long enough to build a solid foundation for a proposal. I would proceed cautiously. But, what do I know...

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Many thanks for the thoughtful replies already. I am reading, and rereading.

 

 

BaileyB - good point. I could certainly be optimistic about the odds (I am optimistic about most things). My research has shown that the choice of surgeon makes an enormous difference as some specialize in delicate situations, and most don't. However, I appreciate your point, and will keep it in mind.

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You sound wonderful. I would question the importance of having a child bit. There are other ways to have a child, if your vasectomy reversal doesn’t work out. I would worry if that’s the dealbreaker in the relationship.

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So glad you're happy in your new relationship, Sunlight! :D

 

With that said, it is still new. I think 7 months of dating is too short a time to make a commitment to stay with a person for life

 

And considering you guys are on and off again, plus she's not sure about having kids with you...it's way too early

 

Maybe just try to enjoy the new relationship and continue to let her know how you feel about her. If someone was thinking about proposing to me after 7 months I'd be a little taken a back...not in a good way. Impulsivity isn't conducive to long term sustainability.

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From what you wrote, I would be worried.

 

She is putting conditions on your relationship (you have to do X, Y, and Z to keep her long term).

 

And what’s up with the pseudo breakups?

 

I think the women here are saying you’re wonderful because you have unconditional love (your gf does not). It’s why they get all misty when watching movies like this.

 

Unfortunately, that only works in the movies.

 

 

What would be the advice if the genders were reversed? Would they tell a woman to meet the demands of a boyfriend who stated they won’t work out long term?

 

I get you love her, but really look at the situation logically.

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Frankly, I think it's best to wait a year before a marriage proposal.

 

You guys sound like you've experienced "real" sides of each other, but man, there is a difference between 7 months and one year.

 

How intoxicated-infatuated are you? I ask because I think it's good to not act while that infatuation is just filling your body and brain with hormones.

 

And I do think you guys cannot get married while this whole "You should leave now, because it'll be too painful later if we split."

 

That has to be resolved, tied up ... put away.

 

Marriage does not solve people's pain or their insecurities. It does NOT. For some people marriage makes their insecurities worse.

 

What's the rush? Forget about your age. You want to make sure the relationship is rock-solid ... you'll know when it's time to get engaged. And it'll be when she drops her insecurities talk and actually opens up to you about that and tells you that is all cleared up.

 

I've dated people where I wear one of us hid key elements of ourselves for a good six months.

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RecentChange

I'll just say.... 7 months long distance is like 3 normal months.

 

You two are very much in a limerence phase.

 

Long distance makes things feel special, adds an extra energy and excitement to each meet up.

 

It wards off familiarity, complacency and just noticing all their annoying little habits.

 

Marriage is a WAY bigger commitment than living together, and kids are a much bigger deal than either.

 

I say move in together first, play house and see if it's plausible to make this work till death do you part.

 

Then work on your fertility issue during that time - curious, why do you want children now when in the past you made a permanent decision not to have any?

 

Once you have a greater understanding of your level of compatibility, and you have explored your fertility options and have come to a favorable out come - THEN propose to beer her husband forever, to be the father of her children etc.

 

To me, that is the proper order of horse before cart.

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Thanks all. I continue to read and reread.

 

 

Lotsgoingon - some good thoughts that are not simple for me to answer to myself, but I am glad you bring them up.

 

 

RecentChange - in the past I first married a woman whom we both agreed would make a poor mother, and who needed a lot of care and feeding herself. I was completely committed to that marriage and as I considered my life with her permanent, I made that decision to coincide with my anticipated life with her. Second woman I married felt she was too old to have children when we married (she was 40, I was 30). My girlfriend has asked this repeatedly also, and I answer the same way each time. I know it's unsettling for her to consider that I made such a permanent choice in the past though.

 

 

With my girlfriend, I really can see a beautiful future family that I have long just considered out of the realm of possibility in my life. It feels like a magical chance at a new world and a new life with her, and I think it will be quite challenging to have a child (I did teach parenting classes for 2 1/2 years recently, and have seen how bad things can get in some instances) and yet with this woman I get teared up to think of us raising a person together. I would love to make such a team with her.

Edited by Sunlight72
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Happy Lemming

How is your overall health??

 

Do you think you would be able to keep up with a toddler in your 50's... deal with a teenager in your 60's... and you will be close to 70 when the child becomes a legal adult. Will you be financially prepared to send that child to college or will you be working until you are 75+??

 

Run the numbers... I know you may feel pretty good right now, but soon those little aches and pains are coming...

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Veronica73 - very kind of you to say. I'm pretty good myself, but together I really feel we are wonderful and I am wonderful with her. In my life I find that to be an exceedingly rare combination, and so I am eager and comfortable for us to be together more seriously.

 

I am also trying to gauge if this is accurate, or I am missing some obvious element that will turn that all around at some point. It's tough for me to see clearly because to me the most valuable station in life is to build a life together that is greater than the two lives separately, and so I want to see the best of what we are. Thanks for your kind encouragement - it reinforces my feeling that I've done things well so far :)

 

HappyLemming - fortunately my health is good. The aches and pains have been here for a couple years (my job is quite physical). I've found relief through rolfing massage this year, and yoga even twice a month really makes a positive difference. I work out 4 to 10 times per week, and eat a 75% healthy diet. I carry my girlfriend around the house and up a couple flights of stairs for fun sometimes, so currently I feel good about the next 10 years of moderate activity (like with a small child for instance).

 

While I do have some concern about my energy level in the future, and fitness to chase a kid around and be playful, I also have time and flexibility in my life beginning about 2 years ago that I could actually devote meaningful time to a family now in a way I couldn't have imagined any earlier. I currently earn more than I ever have and work about 20-26 hours a week, as opposed to the 55 to 70 hours per week I worked most of my life. I still earn only a modest income though.

 

I think at least some of your questions are rhetorical, but it is helpful for me to piece together and write down my thoughts in response.

 

 

Disillusionment - thanks for the thoughts. Sharp points to consider.

Edited by Sunlight72
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Happy Lemming

I think at least some of your questions are rhetorical, but it is helpful for me to piece together and write down my thoughts in response.

 

I'm not too much older than you (53), and I threw my back out twice last year. In one of those instances, I was on the couch for 3 weeks (in pain). At the time, I was working from home and ahead of schedule, so I could just relax and let my angry back quiet itself.

 

If you are dealing with aches and pains now and have a physical job, do you have a contingency plan if your health goes downhill or if you throw out your back?? Its one thing to take care of yourself (financially); its completely different when you have dependents and you are off-line.

 

Also, do you plan on working until 70-75?? Kids aren't cheap to raise. Have you done any retirement planning?? I'm glad you have found lucrative work, but if that job goes away, can you earn similar money in your field at a different company??

 

Just giving you some food for thought...

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healing light

I think her on/off mercurial disposition in your relationship is related in part to not having a ring if she's been parroting that to you. Do I think this is a good reason to propose this early? No.

 

But I think that's part of why she's going back and forth, figures that it will not work out long-term due to the age difference unless there is a real commitment. However, what is her rush? I always throw up a bit of a red flag when someone wants to rush into the foundational steps like moving in together, getting engaged, etc. Maybe her clock is ticking on the even of 30 if she feels like kids would be on the table, especially with an older man.

 

I would have a proper conversation with her about her hesitations and fears the next time she displays this ambivalent on/off attitude. Figure out exactly where it is coming from if you can.

 

and she wants to split because we are perfect and if we stay together, we like each other so much that we will just get closer and closer, and it will be harder to split later

 

Be careful with this bit. If she is normally stoic and only made herself vulnerable to you for the first time in her life, this tid bit would have me concerned that she may be emotionally unavailable. This is especially common in push/pull relationships. That's a really tough train to turn around without lots of therapy and awareness. Love doesn't come without risks, that's just part of life. Someone who wants to push you away when you get close in order to avoid future hurt needs to work on where that fear is coming from.

Edited by healing light
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Ehya sunlight.

The first thing pops out to me is that it's only 7mths.

That's not long man.

When l got married l knew the day we met l'd marry her but we still strung it out 3yrs non the less first. Sadly it not working after 20yrs wasn't really about us but other stresses, nother story.

but l know sometimes ya need some solid idea in place with the distance and all to even keep handling that but yaknow, it is only 3 hours and only 7mths, she's young enough to have the time yet.

 

ls there any real reason apart from it just being awkward, distance and all , that you guys can't just keep on enjoying for another 6 or 12mths first ?

 

As far as income well , that's more about the quality of person she is than you sounds like you both work anyway but later with kids and stuff, all takes time.

Any half decent women with any depth at all should be happy to work together until then and later in support . Takes time for any couple to build up .

The other thing is you must be both paying 2 rents or repayments now so together that's only one later , that alone is big , add better work in her city.

 

Anyway best of luck in whatever you decide.

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Be careful with this bit. If she is normally stoic and only made herself vulnerable to you for the first time in her life, this tid bit would have me concerned that she may be emotionally unavailable. This is especially common in push/pull relationships. That's a really tough train to turn around without lots of therapy and awareness. Love doesn't come without risks, that's just part of life. Someone who wants to push you away when you get close in order to avoid future hurt needs to work on where that fear is coming from.
Heavy food for thought healing light, thank you.

 

 

Chilli -"...l know sometimes ya need some solid idea in place with the distance and all to even keep handling that..."

Reading this a couple times, I think this is a bigger issue for me than I gave credit earlier. I really do want some concrete recognition that we are together, moving closer. .. ..

..

..

 

...I guess I want to move there and be with or quite close to her, but I also don't want to do that just to see how it goes (!). I'm ready and eager to uproot and replant my life, but not if it is a one-sided event.

 

What is she doing to change her life toward becoming our life? (if I move there and rent my own place, but we don't get engaged, and I don't move in with her)

 

 

I'm thinking out loud here - not to a conclusion yet...

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...I guess I want to move there and be with or quite close to her, but I also don't want to do that just to see how it goes (!). I'm ready and eager to uproot and replant my life, but not if it is a one-sided event.

 

What is she doing to change her life toward becoming our life? (if I move there and rent my own place, but we don't get engaged, and I don't move in with her)

 

I'm thinking out loud here - not to a conclusion yet...

 

As I was reading your original post, I couldn't help wondering why you haven't proposed if the relationship is going so well. I also wondered why you haven't moved to her city. But now your post above is telling. It seems you are not certain of her commitment. You know she probably loves you and many other things but you are not sure if she's really on the same page.

 

You have to do things in the right order:

 

1. One or both of you move so that you live close by. Or move in together.

 

2. After that, then consider proposing. By that time you should be sure of where she stands.

 

3. After being married, then consider having a child.

 

To talk about surgery before you're even comfortable to go rent an apartment nearby is simply daydreaming! A fantasy. You sign a lease with the landlord - that's reality. And that's where you stopped yourself?

 

In general, having a child is the most serious decision. Many people think the marriage is the big decision and having a child is automatic. But you can get a divorce while you can't undo a baby. By comparison to bringing a life to this world, moving to a nearby city is not a huge decision. Because it is so doable, it is real.

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I've been seeing an amazing woman for 7 months. I'm 46, she's 29. We live almost 3 hours apart, and neither of us wanted to do the long distance thing. I go to stay at her home and take her on dates for 3 to 7 days at a time when I can also do a little work in her city, which is 2 or 4 times a month.

<SNIP>

 

Wow! The thing doesn't matter you love her she loves you. 3 hr away one say or 3 hrs total. But beside that you have to deal with her needs and you just have to make it work. I don't see anything else you should be concern about either.

Edited by a LoveShack.org Moderator
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Heavy food for thought healing light, thank you.

 

 

Chilli -"...l know sometimes ya need some solid idea in place with the distance and all to even keep handling that..."

Reading this a couple times, I think this is a bigger issue for me than I gave credit earlier. I really do want some concrete recognition that we are together, moving closer. .. ..

..

..

 

...I guess I want to move there and be with or quite close to her, but I also don't want to do that just to see how it goes (!). I'm ready and eager to uproot and replant my life, but not if it is a one-sided event.

 

What is she doing to change her life toward becoming our life? (if I move there and rent my own place, but we don't get engaged, and I don't move in with her)

 

 

I'm thinking out loud here - not to a conclusion yet...

 

That's a bit of twist, you don't want to move in with her? Why is that?

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I'm ready and eager to uproot and replant my life, but not if it is a one-sided event.

 

Seems to me it is already pretty one sided, why are you doing all the running to her place? Does she make any effort to come to yours?
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I'd have one more very serious conversation with her, make sure she's on board with the plan to: get engaged, you have the surgery and see if you become fertile again, then get married if so.

 

If she's all in on that plan, then propose when you're ready.

 

I do think Ruby is right..

 

I will say once I dated a woman who had 3 kids and had her tubes tied, while being younger than me and still able to have kids we talked about her having a reversal and she was onboard but I felt weird about it and felt like I needed to find someone more of a fit for me.. I felt like she already had her kids and I hadn't so we were in different places in our lives and felt her having a reversal meant she wasn't doing it for the right reasons.

 

However in your case neither of you have kids but she may still feel you are in different places since you had already have taken the avenue of no kids.. maybe she feels you are both in different places in your life and her asking you to do the reversal isn't good enough, that you will still be on different pages..

 

Time to talk it out, I wouldn't move to her without moving in with her, that commitment IMO should require a commitment from her too..

 

Maybe you are closer to being on the same page and she needs encouragement that you are okay with the reversal and that you are REALLY okay with having kids...

Do you see how at odds having a vasectomy is with having the reversal in YOUR situation ? it means you will have changed a life long decision for her.

 

Good luck man, you deserve happiness and it seems you have found it.. now you have to figure out if the future has you both in it..

Edited by Art_Critic
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introverted1

I feel bad being a Debbie Downer here, but I am just not feeling it for this relationship. :(

 

Aside from the fact that the age difference is quite significant -- maybe not so much now as in the future -- I am not reading that this woman is all in. I am particularly concerned about this:

 

She has also told me several times that we won't work out long-term, she loves me, and she wants to split because we are perfect and if we stay together, we like each other so much that we will just get closer and closer, and it will be harder to split later.

 

Combined with the breakups-that-aren't-actually-breakups, I get the sense that she is not serious about this relationship at some level.

 

I don't think it's a good idea to move nor get your vasectomy reversed without a lot more initiation from her. I see you being willing to make changes to make the relationship work. What is she doing?

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Happy Lemming

Can I ask a question out of "left field"??

 

What would be wrong with getting married and having her artificially inseminated with a donation from a sperm bank if/when you want to have children together?? Surely you can find a suitable donor that shares your physical characteristics.

 

Anytime I hear "surgery", I think of complications and risks, infections, problems post surgery, etc. Are there additional risks involved over and above the normal complications with this type of "Reversal" surgery??

 

Also it appears much, much cheaper to go the "artificial insemination" route vs. vasectomy reversal. I don't know if that is a factor or not, but I thought I would mention it.

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