Did I mess things up?

[rkm86]

I [28M] had a girl [25F] over at my apartment last night for our second date. She was on vacation last week and stayed in touch by texting and calling. She was eager to meet again and I bought her red wine and M&Ms for when she came over, since she said she liked those two things and I wanted to make her visit comfortable for her. My first silly mistake was I didn’t have wine bottle opener, so she couldn’t enjoy the wine. We ate pizza and then watched a movie where she cuddled up right next to me. We kissed a little throughout and at the end she got up on my lap and started making out with me. She said she didn’t want to go any further. She said she didn’t trust herself, but she trusted me. What does that mean? She then wanted to leave since she had things to do before starting summer school today. She wouldn’t take the wine or M&Ms with her when I requested that she did. Also, she didn’t want me to walk her to her car (which is something I always like to do). She texted me “Home!” when she got home and I said “Ok good. Thanks for letting me know. I enjoyed your company tonight”. She texted like an hour later “Me too”, but I was asleep. My gut after she left last night was telling me something was off and that I probably won’t see her again. Does anyone think I messed something up or could I be worrying for nothing?

Edited July 2, 2018 by rkm86
Clarity

[coolheadal]

We kissed a little throughout and at the end she got up on my lap and started making out with me. She said she didn’t want to go any further. She said she didn’t trust herself, but she trusted me. What does that mean? She then wanted to leave since she had things to do before starting summer school today.

 

What happen when she sat on your lap and made out? Something you left out there? For her to say she didn't want to go any further meant something she didn't like or she's hiding something? She trusted you but she didn't trust herself. She might not be ready for what you want with her. So she pulled out and did a 180 on you.

[Gaeta]

I [28M] had a girl [25F] over at my apartment last night for our second date. She was on vacation last week and stayed in touch by texting and calling. She was eager to meet again and I bought her red wine and M&Ms for when she came over, since she said she liked those two things and I wanted to make her visit comfortable for her. My first silly mistake was I didn’t have wine bottle opener, so she couldn’t enjoy the wine.

 

At 28 you should know how to open a bottle of wine without a bottle opener! C'mon!! To me you would have come across as someone with no initiatives and resourcefulness. You could have opened it with a nail, or simply go out to the convenience store to buy one!

 

We ate pizza and then watched a movie where she cuddled up right next to me. We kissed a little throughout and at the end she got up on my lap and started making out with me. She said she didn’t want to go any further. She said she didn’t trust herself, but she trusted me. What does that mean?

Meh...it means she was wiling to take it further and trusted you to stop before any 'accident'.

 

She then wanted to leave since she had things to do before starting summer school today. She wouldn’t take the wine or M&Ms with her when I requested that she did. Also, she didn’t want me to walk her to her car (which is something I always like to do).

I don't care if she said yes or not to be walked to her car, YOU DO IT. You don't take no for an answer! from your front door to her car she's under your watch. She probably just said no to not be a bother.

 

Does anyone think I messed something up or could I be worrying for nothing?

Yes, sorry but I think you came across as boring.

 

 

.

[Happy Lemming]

You made out, so I think that is a positive sign. I don't know that I would do a "house" date on the second date. I would ask her out again, but do an activity "out" for the third date and see if she wants to come back to your place afterwards.

 

Yes, get a bottle opener. You dropped the ball on that one. You should always have two can openers, and two bottle openers in your kitchen (in case one breaks) Also, I thought "dark chocolate" went with red wine?? Maybe purchase some nice "dark chocolate" for the next date?? Do you have wine glasses/stem ware for the wine??

 

Pizza can be heavy, maybe more of a "lite fare" next time. She is your date, not one of your guy friends coming over to watch a football game.

 

Don't put too much pressure on yourself, dating is supposed to be fun. Allow her some time to get to know you better before pushing the relationship to the next level.

 

Just my two cents....

[kendahke]

I [28M] had a girl [25F] over at my apartment last night for our second date. She was on vacation last week and stayed in touch by texting and calling. She was eager to meet again and I bought her red wine and M&Ms for when she came over, since she said she liked those two things and I wanted to make her visit comfortable for her. My first silly mistake was I didn’t have wine bottle opener, so she couldn’t enjoy the wine. We ate pizza and then watched a movie where she cuddled up right next to me. We kissed a little throughout and at the end she got up on my lap and started making out with me. She said she didn’t want to go any further. She said she didn’t trust herself, but she trusted me. What does that mean? She then wanted to leave since she had things to do before starting summer school today. She wouldn’t take the wine or M&Ms with her when I requested that she did. Also, she didn’t want me to walk her to her car (which is something I always like to do). She texted me “Home!” when she got home and I said “Ok good. Thanks for letting me know. I enjoyed your company tonight”. She texted like an hour later “Me too”, but I was asleep. My gut after she left last night was telling me something was off and that I probably won’t see her again. Does anyone think I messed something up or could I be worrying for nothing?

 

I don't see anything that you messed up, except for the wine bottle opener (buy one today!!) but that's so inconsequential as to not matter since she didn't make a big deal out of it.

 

But, I'm struck by her saying she couldn't trust herself but could trust you. To me, that is a red flag comment. I'd have to back away from someone who couldn't even trust themselves--if you can't trust yourself, then you're easily led into things you shouldn't be in because that's abandoning all responsibility to yourself and you're never to blame for the effery you get yourself into.

 

It's also weird that she wouldn't let you walk her to her car--did she in fact drive or did she uber there? Just strange all around.

[smackie9]

No bottle opener? Push the bloody cork in!

 

 

Don't sweat it bud, there will be other dates. Maybe keep it to the 3rd or 4th date for those Netflix and chill dates.

 

 

Maybe things felt off for her too. All you can do is try again.

[d0nnivain]

Plan a date to go watch fireworks together. Then go do that.

 

Buy a corkscrew & then invite her over to enjoy the bottle of wine. If you don't own wine glasses pick some up. You can get cute ones for $1 each at a thrift store. Just wash them well.

[salparadise]

She said she didn’t want to go any further. She said she didn’t trust herself, but she trusted me. What does that mean?

 

I means she wanted to be taken!

 

Women often need to preserve a semblance of virtue by relinquishing control and being seduced rather than explicitly telling you. No intent but you were so charming and persuasive they couldn't resist. Plausible deniability.

 

I made the same mistake about a year ago. Third date and we ended up at her house, drinking wine, making out... as we were just getting started she said something to the effect that she wanted to wait. I took her at her word, but as we continued making out I got zero resistance. It was getting hot and heavy and at some point I said, sh*t I've got to stop because she already told sex wasn't on the table for tonight. Well, in hindsight I realize she wanted me to take her all the way but it was important to her that it was a seduction, not an offer. There was never a fourth date. I blew it by not knowing when no does not actually mean no.

 

My former girlfriend was a big feminist and proponent of affirmative consent. We got into a discussion about affirmative consent (after we'd been dating awhile) and I reminded her that the first time we had sex there was nothing affirmative about it, and no consent other than the fact that she never put the brakes on. She was slightly uncomfortable that I pointed out the dichotomy, but as it turned out she was quite submissive sexually loved for me to push the envelope. She wanted a bunch of stuff that she wasn't able say, but expected me to figure out. I did get hints from time to time. This is the way it is regardless of may be said to be politically correct.

 

If they're on your lap, breathing a certain way, and not pushing your hands away... well, sometimes you gotta trust your instincts. Give'em their plausible deniability too.

Edited July 2, 2018 by salparadise

[Grey40]

You acted weak. She was all over you and you didn’t man up and take it to the next level. If she’s initiating making out with you, she’s certainly doing the complete opposite of what she said. Always look at peoples actions not their words.

 

When girls say that they are testing your reaction. If you get mad or upset, they think you’re desperate lunatic. If you be nice and respect their wish, then you become subservient and a “nice guy”. Even when the girl says that she doesn’t want to go further you be indifferent, funny/witty about it and keep building the seduction and keep making out and try and take it as far as you can until she actually physically stops you.

 

The walking to your car thing is a test I think. She wanted to see if you’re actually a gentleman or just some douche looking for sex, and that’s one way she can determine that in her mind. In my opinion, doing the wine/chocolate etc on a second date is a little overboard, but she seemed into you enough where it didn’t matter. I think really what happened was she wanted you to go further and when you didn’t she viewed that as rejection or viewed you as another nice guy with no balls to take what he wants.

Edited July 3, 2018 by Grey40

[rkm86]

I ended up talking to her on the phone last night for almost an hour. Part of it comes back to what a lot of you had said. I was weak and didn’t go for what I wanted because of my respect for her. I didn’t want her to think all I wanted was a hookup, but she said she wanted a man who is aggressive/assertive/dominant, but can also be a gentleman. She felt like I was a great guy, but the dominant masculine personality was missing. She was very alpha female, whereas I’m not very alpha male (like what she is looking for). We grew up in two different lifestyles too, she grew up in the city and I grew up in the country. I tried to persuade her to go on a third date where we could do an activity together, but she said she didn’t want to drag out the relationship or get my hopes up if she wasn’t fully committed. It sucks because I really liked her.

[Gaeta]

I ended up talking to her on the phone last night for almost an hour. Part of it comes back to what a lot of you had said. I was weak and didn’t go for what I wanted because of my respect for her. I didn’t want her to think all I wanted was a hookup, but she said she wanted a man who is aggressive/assertive/dominant, but can also be a gentleman. She felt like I was a great guy, but the dominant masculine personality was missing. She was very alpha female, whereas I’m not very alpha male (like what she is looking for). We grew up in two different lifestyles too, she grew up in the city and I grew up in the country. I tried to persuade her to go on a third date where we could do an activity together, but she said she didn’t want to drag out the relationship or get my hopes up if she wasn’t fully committed. It sucks because I really liked her.

 

 

Nothing is lost and make this a learning experience. I don't think you need to be an alpha male but I think you need to grow some self-confidence and be more resourceful. If you cannot find the solution to opening a bottle of wine how will you be able to go hunt a buffalo to feed me and my offsprings? Women want to know they are in good hands just like she wanted you to take charge and walk her to her car even if at first she said no it's ok, because a man is suppose to look out for our security even when we think there is no danger around.

[Happy Lemming]

My former girlfriend was a big feminist and proponent of affirmative consent. We got into a discussion about affirmative consent (after we'd been dating awhile) and I reminded her that the first time we had sex there was nothing affirmative about it, and no consent other than the fact that she never put the brakes on.

 

You make a good point here... I was dating this woman and we starting making out on her couch and moved upstairs to the bedroom. Clothes started coming off and she was just down to her panties and she said "no". So I got up to leave, then she said "yes". I attempted to re-start the process and she said "no", again. At that point, I got dressed and left and never contacted her again. I don't know what "game" she was playing but I didn't want to have to explain my actions in a court of law. Definitely, not worth it (to me)

 

OP's date gave him a "no" (more or less) and he didn't take it further. Even though, your date later changed her tune, I still think OP did the right thing, in my opinion.

 

OP... If there is any ambiguity about consent, its time to stop. Do NOT proceed, get out of there or walk her to her car. You really don't want to date a woman who is doing the no/yes thing, anyway.

 

Just my two cents...

[lakerman34]

It sounds to me like things are actually going pretty well.

 

Kinda boneheaded to buy a bottle of wine and not a wine opener.

 

My roommate (who I don't really like, he's an undergrad and I'm 7 years older, so there's that), just recently turned 21. He bought a bottle of wine. He asked if he could use my opener, I said yes.

 

It was HILARIOUS to watch him try and open a bottle of wine with a beer opener.

 

HAHA

 

Yeah, it sounds like you're on a good track. A 'home' date for a second date seems a bit early to me, but hey, there isn't a definitive timeline for anyone or anything.

[rkm86]

You make a good point here... I was dating this woman and we starting making out on her couch and moved upstairs to the bedroom. Clothes started coming off and she was just down to her panties and she said "no". So I got up to leave, then she said "yes". I attempted to re-start the process and she said "no", again. At that point, I got dressed and left and never contacted her again. I don't know what "game" she was playing but I didn't want to have to explain my actions in a court of law. Definitely, not worth it (to me)

 

OP's date gave him a "no" (more or less) and he didn't take it further. Even though, your date later changed her tune, I still think OP did the right thing, in my opinion.

 

OP... If there is any ambiguity about consent, its time to stop. Do NOT proceed, get out of there or walk her to her car. You really don't want to date a woman who is doing the no/yes thing, anyway.

 

Just my two cents...

 

Reading your comment makes me feel better about how I handled the situation. I pretty much had the same thoughts going through my head.

[Eternal Sunshine]

I means she wanted to be taken!

 

Women often need to preserve a semblance of virtue by relinquishing control and being seduced rather than explicitly telling you. No intent but you were so charming and persuasive they couldn't resist. Plausible deniability.

 

I made the same mistake about a year ago. Third date and we ended up at her house, drinking wine, making out... as we were just getting started she said something to the effect that she wanted to wait. I took her at her word, but as we continued making out I got zero resistance. It was getting hot and heavy and at some point I said, sh*t I've got to stop because she already told sex wasn't on the table for tonight. Well, in hindsight I realize she wanted me to take her all the way but it was important to her that it was a seduction, not an offer. There was never a fourth date. I blew it by not knowing when no does not actually mean no.

 

My former girlfriend was a big feminist and proponent of affirmative consent. We got into a discussion about affirmative consent (after we'd been dating awhile) and I reminded her that the first time we had sex there was nothing affirmative about it, and no consent other than the fact that she never put the brakes on. She was slightly uncomfortable that I pointed out the dichotomy, but as it turned out she was quite submissive sexually loved for me to push the envelope. She wanted a bunch of stuff that she wasn't able say, but expected me to figure out. I did get hints from time to time. This is the way it is regardless of may be said to be politically correct.

 

If they're on your lap, breathing a certain way, and not pushing your hands away... well, sometimes you gotta trust your instincts. Give'em their plausible deniability too.

 

Wow ?

 

Men should follow this advice if they want to be accused of rape. When I say no, I mean no. If it’s a yes, I won’t say anything just won’t put up any resistance. But if words are spoken in the moment, you better stop immediately.

 

“I lost interest in him because he didn’t push me into having sex after I said no.” Said no women ever. Or rather thought no woman ever.

[Shining One]

“I lost interest in him because he didn’t push me into having sex after I said no.” Said no women ever. Or rather thought no woman ever.

I've had a woman tell a mutual friend that she lost interest in me because I never made a move on her. This was a woman who told me she doesn't have sex early, hence why I didn't make a move.

[salparadise]

Wow ?

 

Men should follow this advice if they want to be accused of rape. When I say no, I mean no. If it’s a yes, I won’t say anything just won’t put up any resistance. But if words are spoken in the moment, you better stop immediately.

 

“I lost interest in him because he didn’t push me into having sex after I said no.” Said no women ever. Or rather thought no woman ever.

 

Well, good for you!

 

I surely wish all women would think the same, because in this hyper-politically charged #metoo climate it's phukking dangerous to be a man who behaves like a man. Hell, if you just try to kiss a woman who later decides to make an issue of it you may be fired, ostracized, and maybe even prosecuted depending on her motive and how she constructs the narrative.

 

They (the gender PC crowd collectively) think they can solve the world's problems and instantly reverse ten million years of biological precedent by removing all ambiguity from human sexuality... an area in which it's almost all ambiguous. And as if that weren't enough, they seek to deny men due process if accused, and if they can't do that they'll try to reduce the burden of proof from reasonable doubt to preponderance of the evidence (which means whoever seems more believable prevails). Then they apply the reasoning of the woman has no reason to lie, but the man has every reason... which is logical, except for the fact that her motives may be unknown even to herself, while his is perfectly obvious. Reverence the UVA-Rolling Stone fiasco and the Duke lacrosse case. This is all extremely complicated, but the point is that false accusations do happen... and no man should ever be denied presumption of innocence, due process, or the evidential standard of reasonable doubt when accused of sex crimes. These are fundamentals of our system of juris prudence for good reason.

 

I'm glad OP came back and posted the update because it further illustrates how ambiguous all of this really is, and that the "no always mean no" meme is actually false. That's why I posted the part about my former girlfriend, the feminist/affirmative consent/phukk men's rights, hypocrite who proselytizes political correctness while behaving diametrically opposite.

 

So if women want men to take this stuff seriously they need to start emphasizing to each other how important it is to not be saying no while their actions are saying yes. Acknowledge that the only way this will ever get better is if both accept their share of the responsibility. But the reality is, ambiguity is inherent in sexual interactions and that's not ever going to change.

 

*In case anyone is confused as to what I believe, I am a proponent of women's rights and I err on the side of caution in these matters.

[rkm86]

I realized back in my original post that I forgot to mention something about when she climbed on top of me. She let me get to second base, but that's when she stopped me, however her excuse when I was on the phone with her the next day was that I wasn't confident/assertive/aggressive enough for her. Granted I wasn't tearing her clothes off--I was progressing slowly. I know there's no benefit to keep speculating what exactly happened, but it's my engineering brain that thinks it needs to solve every problem

[firestar]

It's the second date. It's too soon to tell if there is anything wrong. But from the way it sounds she likes you and wants to take it slow. She didn't want to go further because she doesn't want you to think she is "easy" and will have sex quickly with any guy. But she "trusts" you in that she knows you will hold back and maybe that she thinks you're a decent guy. I think she wanted to leave because if she stayed longer she will want to have sex with you and she probably thinks its too soon.

 

The best way to tell if she likes you is to text her occasionally and ask her out again. If she accepts, she is interested in you. Women don't waste time dating men that they don't see a potential future with. If you're getting a lot of date cancellations for flimsy reasons, then you'll know that she's not interested.

[Happy Lemming]

I realized back in my original post that I forgot to mention something about when she climbed on top of me. She let me get to second base, but that's when she stopped me, however her excuse when I was on the phone with her the next day was that I wasn't confident/assertive/aggressive enough for her. Granted I wasn't tearing her clothes off--I was progressing slowly. I know there's no benefit to keep speculating what exactly happened, but it's my engineering brain that thinks it needs to solve every problem

 

In your original post you stated "She said she didn’t want to go any further"

 

You did the 100% right thing by stopping.

 

Would your engineering brain like to be paying a Criminal Attorney to defend you on a rape charge?? There is nothing for your brain to solve on this one.

 

Look man, you NEVER, NEVER, NEVER want to date someone that is wishy/washy about consent.

 

There are plenty of women out there, find another one!!

 

Would you rather be home, sitting at your computer typing to us or sitting in a jail cell trying to make bail.

 

Block this woman and never communicate with her again. You dodged a bullet, be thankful.

 

NEXT!!