Pakistani American Muslim Girl and "White" Guy

[Kelemvor]

Ok, I could use some advice... I met this girl on a dating site who, at first, portrayed herself more as an Americanized woman looking for someone. We texted, hit it off and met for coffee. I was instantly attracted to her and we talked for hours and both work in the health care field and have much in common. Fast forward and things get very weird, very quickly...

 

Our first date, I asked her out to dinner and although she agreed, she said she was afraid "brown people will see us" and it turns out that she is distinctly more religious than she appeared at first, at least in how she portrays herself to the public and to her family. She's apparently not supposed to date, or be seen with a boy in public and most definitely not with a "white guy". So, our dates thus far have been indoors, watching a movie, dinner, etc.. She's very passionate and let me know at one point that she couldn't have sex and was a virgin. She's 26 btw and I'm more than a few years older than her though the age gap doesn't bother either of us. As I'm wrestling with what the "no sex" exactly means altogether, one thing leads to another and we end up in my room with no clothes on, in my bed, intimate obviously but still no sex.

 

I'm honestly just trying to wrap my brain around what her angle is exactly and whether I'm completely wasting my time with this person or not. I'm basically looking for a monogamous relationship with marriage potential but am not looking for marriage anytime soon... However, I'm trying to figure out if that is even possible with her or not? For starters, I have no idea how a relationship without sex even works and I'm trying to figure out if she just told me that and is truly a virgin, or if it's secretly not true and having a "normal" relationship would be possible? Even if we could get past the physical obstacles, would I even have a chance at a meaningful relationship with this woman? I mean, suppose we fell in love...given how strict their family/society norms are, would she even have a chance at marrying someone not of her ethnicity and religion? The whole thing just boggles my brain and I've never been in a situation like this before and have no idea how to proceed.

 

If she never intends to marry a white guy, or have a "westernized normal" relationship with one, then why even bother with me or anyone in the first place? Is this some sort of escapism for her while she waits for an arranged marriage from her family? Is her family progressive enough where they would accept a western guy at some point? I have so many questions and just can't figure her out. When I ask her, she is somewhat vague in that she says that she chooses to live in the moment and not worry about the future and that if she worried about the future she would miss out on great opportunities and "it's better to have loved and lost than to have never loved at all" lol, I know...

 

So, this would be so much easier if I were not interested in this person at all but it's been a long time since I felt this connected to someone and had so much in common and... I just feel drawn to her for some unknown reason. It will truly be a disappointment if I have to abruptly exit the relationship but I'm really not looking to waste my time or have my heart broken. My best friend at first said to run from this but after hearing how much I liked her, encouraged me to just go with it and see what happens but not to get my hopes up because it sounds too strange to him. He feels there's more that she isn't telling me but isn't sure what that "more" is.... He can't seem to understand her motives either.

 

We have a "public" date coming up with one of her american friends and her bf, and I'm just trying to figure out how far to take this or if I should throw in the towel.

 

Can anyone with more knowledge of this culture and situation or some insight give me some advice on my chances?

Edited August 1, 2016 by Kelemvor

[Hoosfoos]

It is clear that she is forbidden to date outside of her own kind. She is under the scrutiny of her parents, brothers, uncles, cousins, and other males in her community. This will not go well. She is doing this because she is having issues with the suffocating pressure of her female-oppressed culture. She is sticking her feelers out there, but will not walk away from it because it would be too dangerous for her.

[I Just Wanna b Happy]

In today's anti-islamic society, this is a disaster waiting to happen. Can you imagine taking her to a Starbucks while she has on her Hijab? You'll have every white person in there on the phone with 9-11 making up some ridiculous story about "terrorist activity" in the local Starbucks. That's if you don't have some crazed lunatic come try to snatch it off her head like what happened in numerous locations across the country. You know this won't work. Why even subject her to the inevitable? Let her go.

[gorf]

 

Fast forward and things get very weird, very quickly...

 

not supposed to date, or be seen with a boy in public and most definitely not with a "white guy".

 

our dates thus far have been indoors

 

However, I'm trying to figure out if that is even possible with her or not?

 

...given how strict their family/society norms are, would she even have a chance at marrying someone not of her ethnicity and religion?

 

Not supposed to date or be seen with a boy in public........and most definitely not a white guy. Is it possible or not?? There you go. You just answered your own question.

 

Your relationship with her will be an "indoors one" and thats it. It really will not go further. You might have the ocasional outing, but it will be controlled. The people, the place, what you do. Everything. She isnt supposed to be dating you. Its a temporary excape. Maybe to get back at her parents or explore, maybe another. Either way its not a good situation

[anthonyflame]

Just enjoy the relationship as it's going and if you see the opportunity to make it more serious/official take it. As it seems right now she's just trying to enjoy herself and you should too (seeing as you said you're not looking to get married anytime soon).

 

But if you rather not take a happy laissez-faire approach then you have to do the obvious and talk to her about this! Ask her where is this really going? Will her upbringing/culture always hamper the relationship? And tell her how you feel about things

[Kelemvor]

Thanks, she doesn't wear a hijab and is completely western by appearances (and was born/grew up in the US) which is why I thought she was more progressive and anticipated her family/cultural situation would be more tolerant. However, after I realized that her family is actually "not ok" with her dating in a western manner (they have flown courters in to town to meet her and tried to do this internal muslim courtship thing, apparently common for them but totally foreign to me). So, that's why I have no idea how liberal she/they are because even though she acts and talks and behaves like a normal western girl, she obviously is not.

 

Have you guys ever known a liberal pakistani muslim (not arabic, this is more related to indian) that was accepting of a western guy? The more I read about this, the more it seems that this would be extremely uncommon. Hence, I think she's just having fun which is really selfish in my view because you just end up toying with other peoples' emotions and if she never had any real intention of things going further then I think someone deserves to hear that. Perhaps I'm holding on to false hope. Ugh, how do I find myself in these situations.

 

Anyway, thanks for the advice in here.

[Gr8fuln2020]

In today's anti-islamic society, this is a disaster waiting to happen. Can you imagine taking her to a Starbucks while she has on her Hijab? You'll have every white person in there on the phone with 9-11 making up some ridiculous story about "terrorist activity" in the local Starbucks. That's if you don't have some crazed lunatic come try to snatch it off her head like what happened in numerous locations across the country. You know this won't work. Why even subject her to the inevitable? Let her go.

 

I understand the sentiment, but the fear of what others may or may not do or say should not be a deterrent to having a relationship with someone you love or care for. If we feared such, we, as human beings would be severely limiting our potential to finding a lasting relationship.

 

For the OP...does she wear a hijab? Is she that conservative? If her family as progressive? The fact of the matter is that many communities are very family-knit. Conservative over all, despite a daughter or son's more liberal tendencies. She will, I fear, ultimately succumb to her family's POV on relationships and marriage.

 

But it is also true that you need to consider the obstacles that you may face. You are both young and if this relationship flourishes, are you willing to convert? I seriously doubt she will. Are you willing to support her, her you in a society where her faith/custom may be looked down-upon? If not, don't go any further.

 

Some cultures have not progressed as much and are less tolerant. This still exists in the West and among so-called christian communities. Think carefully....

[HumanMachine]

In today's anti-islamic society, this is a disaster waiting to happen. Can you imagine taking her to a Starbucks while she has on her Hijab? You'll have every white person in there on the phone with 9-11 making up some ridiculous story about "terrorist activity" in the local Starbucks. That's if you don't have some crazed lunatic come try to snatch it off her head like what happened in numerous locations across the country. You know this won't work. Why even subject her to the inevitable? Let her go.

 

Not all Muslim women wear hijabs..

[BikerAccnt]

Honestly, for her sake as well as your own, it might be best to end this.

 

If her family is that conservative (and I hate using that word in a religious context, because extreme seems a better fit but...) she could be in danger just going out with you.

 

Pakistan is notorious for, amongst other things, how poorly and backwards by our standards they treat their women. Families value something called honor, however they define it, and going out with a male in public, or a male who the family hasn't approved, it not a good thing.

 

Just today, another story on NPR about honor killings in Pakistan. I happens fairly frequently.

 

 

I understand you are coming to care for her, but, I'd tread gently here. This is a totally different culture than what we Americans and westerners are used to. I know for me, I can't even wrap my head around the type of thinking that it's ok to kill someone because of who they choose to date.

[sc0316]

I know a Caucasian guy who is married to a Pakistani Muslim. They both grew up in the UK though.

 

Thanks, she doesn't wear a hijab and is completely western by appearances (and was born/grew up in the US) which is why I thought she was more progressive and anticipated her family/cultural situation would be more tolerant. However, after I realized that her family is actually "not ok" with her dating in a western manner (they have flown courters in to town to meet her and tried to do this internal muslim courtship thing, apparently common for them but totally foreign to me). So, that's why I have no idea how liberal she/they are because even though she acts and talks and behaves like a normal western girl, she obviously is not.

 

Have you guys ever known a liberal pakistani muslim (not arabic, this is more related to indian) that was accepting of a western guy? The more I read about this, the more it seems that this would be extremely uncommon. Hence, I think she's just having fun which is really selfish in my view because you just end up toying with other peoples' emotions and if she never had any real intention of things going further then I think someone deserves to hear that. Perhaps I'm holding on to false hope. Ugh, how do I find myself in these situations.

 

Anyway, thanks for the advice in here.

[elaine567]

I am not sure if we can make the leap to honor killings but if her family are conservative and they sound like it, then a mere conversion to Islam is probably not going to hack it here. The families make the decisions as to who marries who and it is carefully considered decision with advice sought from all quarters.

 

There is no way she would ever be allowed to marry a non-Muslim as it is forbidden in Islam for a Muslim woman to marry a non-Muslim man.

[JewelD]

Lord, some of yall are just throwing out anything negative thing you've ever heard about middle eastern people in general.

 

They don't all wear hijabs and there are many who choose to wear it because they want to. There is as much diversity in the muslim culture as there would be with, say, Jehovah's Witnesses or Wiccans or Catholics. There are people in every religion who try to follow it to a 'T' and there are the people who only follow certain rules.

 

If her family is having courters flown in to meet her, I would say that they are pretty serious about her marrying within her own culture. For all you now, she might actually want to marry within her culture but enjoys having 'fun' with you.

 

There are a lot of foreign men who will come to America for women because they believe we're all 'easy', but they would never take them home to meet their families.

 

Anyway, one of my colleague's parents are from Pakistan but she grew up in America. She's dating a white man but her mother has never met him and doesn't know anything about him. However, she also does not have men being flown in to court her. They've been together for years and live together so it's fairly serious. I imagine that when the time comes, she will tell her mother and she'll either have to accept it or my colleague will just stay with the man anyway.

 

The situation could be the same here if she liked you in that manner and was serious about you. Doesn't sound like she is.

 

I'd also like to add that honor killings are illegal there and the most recent one was a drug addicted brother who killed his sister for posting suggestive photos. The man was mentally ill and their father did NOT know/condone it. He was devastated. Rarely does it happen in America.

[indeed7]

It is clear that she is forbidden to date outside of her own kind. She is under the scrutiny of her parents, brothers, uncles, cousins, and other males in her community. This will not go well. She is doing this because she is having issues with the suffocating pressure of her female-oppressed culture. She is sticking her feelers out there, but will not walk away from it because it would be too dangerous for her.

 

I feel something like this could be the case.

Better be "careful" and not have high hopes for a longer or more stable relationship here, unfortunately, I think...

[Gaeta]

It does not matter how modernized and westernized she is if her family is deep into tradition her life may be in danger. Here in Canada 3 young women were drowned by their father, big brother and mother for being a little too westernized.

 

Be smart and leave it alone. What do you honestly think can come out of this.

[burnt]

I have read a few replies here coming from people who apparently know *little* about the culture and yet somehow feel rather knowledgeable!

 

My background fits almost perfectly to the person you are describing. She is dealing with a lot of pressure from her family's expectations, cultural expectations, and religious expectations.

 

It is a foreign concept in this culture and religion to be physically intimate without being married. The fact that she ended up naked with you, despite the sex, I can guarantee that she wants to be with you in a marriage. You can ask her yourself, but I can guarantee it wasn't easy for her.

 

In the western culture, you first have sex, decide whether or not you like it, then you decide whether or not to marry.

In the Muslim culture, you first marry, then you have sex with that person for life, whether or not you like it.

 

Yes, you are in a difficult position; but you are dealing with someone who is fighting an entire culture, and entire religion, and the entire family's belief system all by herself--just to be with you. Don't undermine what she is battling with.

 

You sound like you are in love with her. Based on what you said about her, and my own experience, I don't have any doubt she is in love with you.

 

Talk to her. Ask her to help you understand why she is trying to "hide" you.