The 21-year old lady and I(Update)

[Balthazar]

Ok, So I pick Irene up at 10 at her place.

 

She is looking very beautiful in black dress(dash of cherry red here and there).

She is one of those women who looks good on a daily basis, but becomes stunning when she dresses up.

 

We head over to a nice seaside Italian restaurant(The Genovese owner is a friend and comes to take the order personally.)

 

We start talking about the theater(our great common interest) and I tell her about the new theater group I have joined.

The conversation in flowing and things seem to be going well,so I escalate the kino. A touch on the hand here, a shared laugh, a tap on the knee.

Irene seems comfortable and responds with in kind.

 

At the end of dinner, I suggest we go for a drink to a club that has live music.

She is fine with this and we are off.

She only had a glass of white wine over dinner so I order a bottle at the club.

(NO, I don't want to get her drunk, but I like wine and proceed to drink it almost all by myself!)

 

The music is ON(mostly 90's stuff and classics), the wine is flowing within, I have lit a cig, and the atmosphere is mellow, so I sort of drape my arm around her shoulders while the band is playing Purple Rain.

She sort of tenses up a bit, looks at me and I plant a kiss on her cheek.

She looks down then back at me, but doesn't draw away.

Just my luck but the band have started playing "All day and all night" so we start jumping around.

However, at some point I hold onto her hands and she returns a squeeze.

We exit at around 2, stop just outside the club and we kiss beneath some trees in the nearby square.

All in all, not a bad night and we kept our PG rating for the evening(marginal R methinks).

 

We talked on Wednesday and I recommended hooking up on Friday. She says she will be tired and prefers Saturday if I'm OK with it, which I am.

 

And that's about it for now.

 

I asked her a bit about our first dates and an interesting tidbit came out.

She thought I only viewed her as a friend.

She only started to believe I was interested in her when I invited her to come with me to an island last August.

 

I am not sure how experienced Irene is with relationships and men.

 

She has a certain prim, proper attitude and while attractive, does not use her femininity as a more experienced lady would.

She is a bit girlish in that aspect, but I was fine with it.

(Possibly because of my emotional immaturity, as Lovelorcelet commented:laugh:).

 

Finally, the age issue never came up.

She didn't say anything and I felt no pressing need to either.

I don't think it matters for the present and I am just looking forward to having a good time with her on Saturday.

I really would have preferred Friday, but I caved a bit.

 

Overall, quite nice folks.

Irene's is a fine young lady. Now let's see about Saturday...

[Jilly Bean]

Nice update, B!

 

Glad you had a good time with her.

 

I just still don't see how she is even remotely interested romantically. I can't help but feeling that this scenario is a bit predatory - perhaps because she DOES come off as being so innocent. I know that is part of the excitement for you, but it still feels wrong.

 

You are a mature, experienced, sexual man. And she is young, inexperienced, and most likely, sexually a virgin.

 

I just feel that the match-up here is icky.

 

I've read a few of your thread now, and there seems to be a common theme. And that is you picking significantly younger woman as your next "target" combined with a large degree of you reading into these situations and manifesting romantic interest on their part that never actually materializes. What do you think of this assessment? Yay, nay?

[Balthazar]

You are a mature, experienced, sexual man. And she is young, inexperienced, and most likely, sexually a virgin.

 

I just feel that the match-up here is icky.

 

It is interesting you say that, because Irene is the only 21 year old I have dated in quite some time.

All the other ladies have been 25 to 39 or so.

 

As for her being a virgin, I really can't say.

I understand you may find the match-up wrong, but that is your opinion. You grew up in the US; what is significantly younger for you? more than 5 years? more than 10?

 

For the record, do you have the same opinion of older women here on LS dating significantly younger men?

Please answer so that I can refer to your reply in future posts.

 

Jilly, it is wrong to call these women "targets" and to imply some sort of malevolent, predatory behavior.

Clear this up if I have misinterpreted your statement.

 

I see a woman I find attractive; her age is not the main concern.

Irene could have well been 30, 35 or 40. She happens to be 21.

 

I just don't have the same boundaries you do with ages. I will date within a much wider range if I find the person attractive.

If you find that distasteful, fine.

But you should respect my rights and not refer to ladies I find attractive as "targets":(.

 

My relationship with Irene has matured over a year long period and a series of dates. It is not as if we rolled in the hay after a few hours.

As for her not being romantically interested, there's not much more I can add other than what I said in my post(I thought I was clear).

 

A final word.

I have not found younger women to be flakier than older ones. Let me remind you of Joanna(31years old).

I have found that a woman's basic personality remains more or less constant during her life.

A good woman at 30 was probably a good woman at 20 too.

Joanna is a flake at 31 and was one as 21 (most likely).

 

Again, I don't know where this will lead. But it has become romantic and I am happy.

So let's have some fun tomorrow and not take everything so seriously!

 

CHeers,

[Jilly Bean]

Well B, Im sorry if you took offense to the "target" comment, but you did post last week asking for seduction strategies on how to romance this girl and turn things in that direction. I think that made your intentions seem less "relationshippy" and more about the hunt.

 

Who was Leia? Wasn't she 21 also?

 

And Im remembering the cousins who you were trying to romance, and they were also in their early 20's, right?

 

And then the potential new hire - she was also in her 20s, correct?

 

It just seems like you are always strategizing and plotting on how to further things and steer them romantically with these girls, rather than enjoying a natural candence to dating with a woman who is your peer. It just seems like you are picking women that then force you to push a stone up hill, rather than meeting and dating women who return your interest and goals from the get-go.

 

I dunno, B. I can only speak from experience, and as I said before, I know when I was 21 and NOT very experienced at all, I fully enjoyed the attention and interest from an older man, but there was no way I was ever romantically interested. Even though I enjoyed their company and the flattering comments, I also knew their agenda, and it totally creeped me out to think of ever being romantic with someone who was close in age to my Dad.

 

And for the record, yes, if a woman was almost 40, and putting the moves on a 21 year old boy, I would find that scenario JUST as predatory.

[Green]

I saw a super hot 40 something women the other day but she was married and she was the rarity. Dude she's virgin... I really don't love virgins... atleast the devirgining is that fun but wow try to get things rated xxx next time

[Shygirl15]

The music is ON(mostly 90's stuff and classics), the wine is flowing within, I have lit a cig, and the atmosphere is mellow, so I sort of drape my arm around her shoulders while the band is playing Purple Rain.

She sort of tenses up a bit, looks at me and I plant a kiss on her cheek.

She looks down then back at me, but doesn't draw away.

 

!

 

I know I wouldn't have liked that on a first date, and maybe she also didn't. But then she's young, so perhaps she felt powerless to make any resistance.

 

I think overall things went well, IMO. She sounds like a pretty decent girl, so best if you slow down on the physical stuff tomorrow.

[Balthazar]

Who was Leia? Wasn't she 21 also?

 

And Im remembering the cousins who you were trying to romance, and they were also in their early 20's, right?

 

And then the potential new hire - she was also in her 20s, correct?

 

I dunno, B. I can only speak from experience, and as I said before, I know when I was 21 and NOT very experienced at all, I fully enjoyed the attention and interest from an older man, but there was no way I was ever romantically interested. Even though I enjoyed their company and the flattering comments, I also knew their agenda, and it totally creeped me out to think of ever being romantic with someone who was close in age to my Dad.

 

And for the record, yes, if a woman was almost 40, and putting the moves on a 21 year old boy, I would find that scenario JUST as predatory.

 

Yes, I understand how the seduction thread could be taken as predatory but you have to accept that certain female posters are ready and armed to present everything in the worst possible light, especially when they are so adamant in their opposition to older men dating younger women.

 

 

Concerning the other women you mentioned, Leia is 21.

The cousins are around 24(possibly 25).

However, one of them came on to me so I hardly think I was "predatory".

There is an interesting point about that cousin, and I will PM the details if you wish.

The potential hire was 29 and in all fairness, flirted with me, as you remember.

Finally, don't forget Joanne(31) and Sandy(39).

 

Jilly, you are making a basic mistake , but it is not your fault.

You are treating women here in Greece(where I currently live) as if they are women from the US or Canada.

And they are not the same.

There are significant cultural differences in the way you approach them and the way a relationship forms with them.

The most important point you need to know is that if you do not "put the moves" on a woman here the relationship automatically enters the friend zone.

Automatically.

Forget about "natural progressions" and the like.

You must "show" your interest!

Did you read my first post?

I had gone out with Irene about 5 times and she thought I viewed her in a "friendly" fashion because I was hands off!

Women here do not want men to be shy and timid.

Shyness and timidity in a man are penalized.HEAVILY.

Come and visit sometime and I will show you what I mean firsthand.

 

KMT: Ah, to be your age again!

 

Shygirl: I escalated a bit with that; blame it on Prince and the Revolution.

I think she was expecting it actually.

After that, things went quite well.

As for anything physical, let's just see where things go.

Anything that happens will be her desire as well as mine.

I will just focus on us having a good time.

 

 

AT times, I feel as if what really bothers some women is the example of a guy dating younger women and posting about it on LS.

It seems as if certain women want us guys "easy to handle" and "controlled".

They that it has taken them 40 years of feminism to bring guys to where they are today.

I feel they want to wean us on ideas that "younger women do not find us attractive" and that in our mid to late 30's, we are "over the hill", "old men".

And bear in mind, there are a significant number of LS women who clearly state their attraction for older guys.

So, I don't think it is my imagination.

Finally, they present our options as being limited.

I laugh at all these ideas.

My personal experiences show exactly the opposite.

Men should not give a damn about age differences;they should just date the women they want to date.

There will be successes and failures, but that goes with the territory.

 

CHeers,

[torranceshipman]

I don't think most women think like you've just outlined in your post-it's just that many of us can think back to when we were 20 or so, and had the experience of older guys hitting on us...its generally because they like the way we look and want to enjoy being physical with us, not because we're a long term compatible match (as usually, the life experience of a 40yr old and 20yr old is so out of whack that there isnt honestly that much synergy to underpin a ltr fully, in terms of life experience, personality, etc). Thats often not a nice thought for a young woman, even if they like the attention you give them i.e. that you essentially are only interested in a short term physical thing. Plus I think often you can affect the self esteem of a young woman pretty easily, in a way you probably cant with an older woman, so personally I do feel quite protective over younger girls i know in terms of this kinda thing.

 

The physical side of things is normal for an experienced older guy but it can be a big, big deal to a young girl and I really dont think men appreciate that a lot of the time. My friend dated a 20yr old recently and he agreed that he was being an ass as he basically really fancied her, and he liked the way she was easily impressed and looked up to him as only a very young woman could!!-he's only 32!!-he ended it as he'd had fun with her, and realised there wasnt much other compatibility there-and she got quite hurt -admittedly he did feel pretty bad about that. I'd be happy seeing a girl that age with a guy that age but 32 or 40 doesnt sound like a guy with her best intentions at heart to me.

 

N.b. I dont like men who are easily controlled and I dont think many women do-I like alpha males-but I dont personally feel comfortable with the general idea of a guy going out with a guy half his age as I do think its ultimately all about the physical/sex and thats not fair to her!

[Balthazar]

Your arguments are clear but I will speak for myself in this matter.

I have found that shared life experiences is not the foundation of an LTR for me.

These experiences can help estbalish an LTR, but they can also lead to a friendship.

In Irene's case, we both enjoy the theater and the arts in general. With this in mind, I have much more in common with her and more to talk about than with other female friends(many of whom are older).

Moreover, Irene is not your average 21-year old(almost 22 by the way:laugh:). She is mature for her age and has already expressed her preference for older men in the past.

Neither is she a 24 hour party person, which would be logical for her age. She prefers excursions to the country, staying at home and being with family.

Can I hurt her?

Possibly, but I am not here to f**k and run. At least that is not my motivation in going out with her.

 

But even if it were, it would still be done with her consent.

After all, there are many young women who wish to have sexual experiences; one of them may be with an older man.

If that is to be my fate, to be used "sexually" by a young woman... well.... I will just have to face my fate with dignity and a wide grin.

 

As for my wanting a short term physical thing, that is not necessarily so. I am approaching the relationship with an open mind and I will see where things take us.

It may not become physical at all(we lip locked last Tuesday and fooled around a bit but stopped shy of more intimacy).

Concerning her self esteem, I care about this woman and I am experienced and sensitive enough to tread carefully.

I understand that I represent all men in her eyes and a negative experience with me may scar her.

And I do not take these responsibilities lightly.

Thanks for your input Torrance,

 

CHeers,

[Art_Critic]

Can I ask why you..a mature man with his head on his shoulders would WANT to date a 21 year old ?

 

Could you explain your thoughts about why ?.. Is it about recapturing your youth ?

 

I would think a 39 year old would be a better match up for you...She certainly would have more in common with you and would understand the way of the world better.

 

By the way.. not a criticism.. I just don't understand what is attractive about a woman that could be young enough to be my daughter..

I personally practice the 10 year rule to keep out the ickiness factor.. ( or did when I was single )

[Balthazar]

I don't see her as a 21-year old anymore Art.

I see her as Irene, a woman.

 

As for recapturing my youth, I have never felt old.

I just came back from 2 1/2 hours of full court basketball and I feel great.

 

I am reasonably active and work with young people in my job. My mentality and outlook is probably not that of a 38 year old(by the way, I'm technically 37, I'll be 38 in February).

 

I have rarely been with women my own age in the last 10 years or so.

Not because of choice; my circle of friends just happened to be younger than me.

Most of my female friends are 25 - 35.

 

Do I prefer younger?

Not necessarily. If you introduce me to a woman who is 30 -35 and I find her attractive, we are on.

No problem whatsoever.

 

 

In conclusion, let me ask you this.

What mature man with his head on his shoulders would NOT WANT to date a 21 year old ?

[sfsassy]

I don't see her as a 21-year old anymore Art.

I see her as Irene, a woman.

 

As for recapturing my youth, I have never felt old.

I just came back from 2 1/2 hours of full court basketball and I feel great.

 

I am reasonably active and work with young people in my job. My mentality and outlook is probably not that of a 38 year old(by the way, I'm technically 37, I'll be 38 in February).

 

I have rarely been with women my own age in the last 10 years or so.

Not because of choice; my circle of friends just happened to be younger than me.

Most of my female friends are 25 - 35.

 

Do I prefer younger?

Not necessarily. If you introduce me to a woman who is 30 -35 and I find her attractive, we are on.

No problem whatsoever.

 

 

In conclusion, let me ask you this.

What mature man with his head on his shoulders would NOT WANT to date a 21 year old ?

 

I really don't think there is anything wrong as you seem to have a mature attitude about it. As I have said previously in my mid twenties I dated someone in his early 40's, and age was never a issue. I didn't connsider him my surrogate father or anything like that, and liked him a lot, but didn't idealize him. (The only guy I ever idealized was younger than me, lol.) As for him, not that my youngness probaly wasn't attrative in terms of my body, but he liked me for me, and we related pretty well. The weird part of this is I hadn't heard from him in years, and like two days after I wrote on another of your threads about him, he contacted me, and he is coming in November, so we will see! I would just watch to make sure she sees you for you, and and that you can relate not just about coming interests, but on a deeper level. But for now, just have fun. You are both well into your adult years, so it is your choice to do what you want.

[Final Girl]

Relaying your date, it's like you're narrating a romantic movie...you know, like a voice-over.

 

Your date just sounds like there was no real spontaneity...like everything, from the conversation to being demonstative, was all so planned. It just didn't sound that much fun and quite frankly I'm not surprised she tensed up. I would too if someone so much older than me was pawing at me.

[Green]

Relaying your date, it's like you're narrating a romantic movie...you know, like a voice-over.

 

Your date just sounds like there was no real spontaneity...like everything, from the conversation to being demonstative, was all so planned. It just didn't sound that much fun and quite frankly I'm not surprised she tensed up. I would too if someone so much older than me was pawing at me.

 

well it probably feels that way in hind sight.... I really have no idea what spontaneity you would have liked to hear about but some examples would have been great. I personaly would have loved to have found out he did in fact sleep with this girl. I don't know why he keeps saying american girls are different then girls in greece. First off the U.S. has the hottest girls in all the world both number and quality wise. Now depending on where you are you might not agree. You have to go to places like NYC or MIA... and the way girls are varies greatly like a Spanish girl is a different flavor then say a Brazilian who just moved here..........

[pretty professional]

well it probably feels that way in hind sight.... I really have no idea what spontaneity you would have liked to hear about but some examples would have been great. I personaly would have loved to have found out he did in fact sleep with this girl. I don't know why he keeps saying american girls are different then girls in greece. First off the U.S. has the hottest girls in all the world both number and quality wise. Now depending on where you are you might not agree. You have to go to places like NYC or MIA... and the way girls are varies greatly like a Spanish girl is a different flavor then say a Brazilian who just moved here..........

 

You really don't respect women.

[Final Girl]

How can I give examples of spontaneity? :confused::confused:

 

Paradox, anyone?

[Balthazar]

well it probably feels that way in hind sight.... I really have no idea what spontaneity you would have liked to hear about but some examples would have been great. I personaly would have loved to have found out he did in fact sleep with this girl. I don't know why he keeps saying american girls are different then girls in greece. First off the U.S. has the hottest girls in all the world both number and quality wise. Now depending on where you are you might not agree. You have to go to places like NYC or MIA... and the way girls are varies greatly like a Spanish girl is a different flavor then say a Brazilian who just moved here..........

 

KMT:I didn't mean that women in the US are not attractive. Everybody knows US women are hot.

I meant that ,culturally, they would be approached in a different way than women here.

I think there are beautiful people all over the world.

The beauty is in the differences, cultural and racial.

 

Final: I am not sure what you mean. I had to give an abridged version for brevity's sake.

I thought the date went pretty well.

She tensed up a but we were kissing outside half and hour later.

Of course, I had planned where we were to go.

Isn't that expected during a date?

[Shygirl15]

I guess by US standard, 21 is really young. However, that's the average age for most women to get married, where I grew up from. For guys, it's 24-27yrs. B, you are not in US, are you? Just look at what applies where you are.

 

I was already engaged at 21 and got married at 22, for 8 years.

[pretty professional]

Sorry but that's not anything to be proud about.

[Final Girl]

 

Final: I am not sure what you mean. I had to give an abridged version for brevity's sake.

I thought the date went pretty well.

She tensed up a but we were kissing outside half and hour later.

Of course, I had planned where we were to go.

Isn't that expected during a date?

 

Yes of course..but it just seemed that FUN was missing, and it was odd how you were being tactile as a game plan. but I know it could be lost in translation....although I'm wondering how much you have to thank the bottle of wine for the kiss??

 

But anyway, I'm glad it went well for you...early dates can be nerve-racking!!

[Balthazar]

The wine was a catalyst...but not for her as Irene drinks very sparingly; it helped me relax and enjoy the atmosphere in the club.

And when the band started playing one of my favorite songs, I just felt like giving her a kiss.

[Final Girl]

The wine was a catalyst...but not for her as Irene drinks very sparingly; it helped me relax and enjoy the atmosphere in the club.

And when the band started playing one of my favorite songs, I just felt like giving her a kiss.

 

Well ok - that was spontaneous so can't argue with that!!!

 

It's a good sign that she wasn't drinking much on your date...on a first date I had once, he took me to see an ice hockey game and I was so bored out of my tree (with him AND the game) I couldn't wait to get my hands on booze!!! He was so tedious I ended up acting like a total steamer!!

[Shygirl15]

Sorry but that's not anything to be proud about.

 

You were not responding to me, were you? I truly hope to God you were not, Pretty Professional.

[bhsunny21]

I don't see her as a 21-year old anymore Art.

I see her as Irene, a woman.

 

I have become intriqued by your situation, for I am typically the younger woman dating older men. Currently, I am dating someone 10 years older than me. However, when I was 21, I dated a man who was sixteen years older than me and things were great for the better part of six months...until he started feeling pressures of our age differences when we spent time with each others friends. Ultimately, the relationship ended because *he* was the one who was too caught up about our age difference, not me. I truly believe that he kept seeing me as a 21 year old, not because of what we did together, maturity or anything along those lines. It was mainly brought about by his friends and co-workers when we spent time together. They would give him a hard time and basically tell him he could have fun with a 21 year old, but not get serious with one. So, instead of the meaningful companion he saw in me as before we started doing things with other people, he saw me for only my age.

 

As long as you keep seeing Irene as Irene and, more importantly as a woman rather than an age, I believe that you may be able to make it work. In my opinion, age is just a number, not a true base of whether or not a relationship can or cannot work, especially if there is maturity on both ends. It may not be easy, especially with peer pressure on both your end and hers. But if you both can put that aside, that will hopefully subside and you will be able to focus on more important things.

 

Good luck and I look forward to reading updates!

[Geishawhelk]

She is one of those women who looks good on a daily basis, but becomes stunning when she dresses up.

 

Is not completely cohesive with -

 

 

She has a certain prim, proper attitude and while attractive, does not use her femininity as a more experienced lady would.

 

I have a feeling that she's more than aware of her assets and knows how to show them - but then it strikes me as if - when her "bluff" is called - she's uncertain of what to do.... we're talking not a great deal of experience here.... maybe behaving in a way she feels she should, rather than in a way she knows it's ok how to.....

She may well be prepared to let you taske the lead, but I get the impression - and I could be waaay off base here - that you're dealing with someone who might be a bit fearful about where this is going....

 

Just as an observation. Not a criticism, chicky-boy.....!

 

 

Finally, the age issue never came up.

She didn't say anything and I felt no pressing need to either.

I don't think it matters for the present and I am just looking forward to having a good time with her on Saturday......

Overall, quite nice folks.

Irene's is a fine young lady. Now let's see about Saturday...

 

Enjoy!