Mending a friendship

[frankyb]

I am guy in his thirtys. I have a group of friends that I have been tight with for years. Things have been disatorous for the past two years because of a friendship I had with one of the fellas that went sour. Surprise, it is over a girl.The frustrating thing is I believe things could be cleared up of he sat down and talked to me. I have put myself in his shoes and can see why he feels betrayed or decieved. Yet he has some misconseptions that can only be cleared up between me and him. All I have in this world is my integrity and my friends as my family has gone bankrupt and other challenges have arose. The only thing I have is my reputation and getting into situations like these are certainly not what I am known for.

 

Yet this situation has succeeded in raining on what I have left. Now this other guy is famous for dating other guys girls. He had been broken up with one for 3 years so I decided to take her out. Why would he be upset if he has done it to so many others? What ensued after I took her out was a **** storm that hasn't ended in two years. She hasn't been around since the beging of those two years. I am at my wits end. Ofcourse there is tons more to the story and i will share it all if someone cares to read the long epic drawn out mess. My last resort is to come here for advice after that I give up. I have allot of work to do right now. so for now. I'll leave the floor open for questions. Thank You.

[Ronni_W]

Frank,

Have you tried speaking with him, and explaining that you didn't realize he felt that he still "owned that turf" since they'd stopped seeing each other three years prior?

And have you said a sincere 'sorry' for having made the assumption that you did (that he would NOT feel betrayed)? That is, have you taken responsibility for what you contributed to the misunderstanding?

 

And have you tried explaining and apologizing WITHOUT pointing out his own behaviour and using it to excuse yours?

 

And have you told him that you feel miserable about the outcome? And asked him if, how and what you can contribute to repairing the relationship?

 

At the same time, what do you need from him, in order to renew the friendship and move forward?

[frankyb]

Frank,

Have you tried speaking with him, and explaining that you didn't realize he felt that he still "owned that turf" since they'd stopped seeing each other three years prior?

And have you said a sincere 'sorry' for having made the assumption that you did (that he would NOT feel betrayed)? That is, have you taken responsibility for what you contributed to the misunderstanding?

 

And have you tried explaining and apologizing WITHOUT pointing out his own behaviour and using it to excuse yours?

 

And have you told him that you feel miserable about the outcome? And asked him if, how and what you can contribute to repairing the relationship?

 

At the same time, what do you need from him, in order to renew the friendship and move forward?

 

 

While all the things you say make sense and a few of them I hadn't thought of. He has not spoken to me since. He has been cordial as of latley when i run into him. He said a long time ago through the grapevine he felt decieved because conversations would come up about her while this was going on. He felt I was using these conversations to get information about her or to ask advice about her. While these conversations were enlightening at times more often then not he brought her up and I was merely trying to feel out if now was a good time to tell him. It never was. Me and him have talked about girls for years before this. I think there must be something else that made him upset. My sister feels that maybe he thought I would reveal information about him that she gave me. He put allot of energy into trying to turn my friends against me.

 

Its created enough awkwardness to make answering my calls uncomfortable for everyone. This is what makes me mad, almost as if i shouldn't even try. But its affected friendships with others, i need my friends, i need them to trust me. I still to this day can't figure out why he is being so hard on me to stretch this out for years. To not be able to sit down and apologize and clear up any misunderstandings is the worst. He agreed to go to lunch the other day. I called him today, no response. I spoke to a friend last night. i said I felt like this has gone on to long. that i can't deal with the awkwardness amongst friends anymore. he said that its about time that I was forgiven and he would tell him. I told himnot to bother.

 

He may have said something today and perhaps thats why my ex friend didn't answer. Perhaps he felt forced and got upset. as a matter of fact the friend i spoke to last night didn't answer my call today either. although he was traveling across the country.

 

 

See, I have a very good reputation. When this guy talks to everybody except me aboout this it jeopardisees trust with others. the guy who feels betrayed is in business with my other good friend. its little connections like that that make things difficult for everyone especialy me. I would like to work with these people as well when i am done with school. Because this 40 your man will not talk to me, forgive me, or hear me out. i suppose I could text him an I'm sorry but i believe he took this to far, that there are things he has misinterpreted, and he should have left this between me and him. One may say, well if these were really your friends they wouldn't treat you that way. Well its more difficult then that. Many have gone to bat for me. But also many have become frustrated with the situation. Its kind of a dead horse. so where's that leave me? On this computer like a deuche.

[Ronni_W]

Hey Frank.

I obviously don't have any investment in how your friendships turn out. I'm going to point some stuff out, which you are free to accept or reject. Some of it may come across as tactless or too blunt, but that'll be a consequence of my hoping to help you see it from the 'other' side.

...he felt decieved because conversations would come up about her while this was going on. He felt I was using these conversations to get information about her or to ask advice about her. While these conversations were enlightening at times more often then not he brought her up and I was merely trying to feel out if now was a good time to tell him. It never was.

To me, that just sounds disingenuous, and as if you were a 'victim' while you were being "enlightened" by him, about her. If it's what you've been 'feeding' your friends, and what he subsequently heard back through that same grapevine, then I can see why he chose not to trust you.

 

It can also 'enlighten' about how your other friends have been viewing you since the whole mess hit the fan.

 

I think there must be something else that made him upset.

Maybe, maybe not. Why do you think that he needed something more to be upset than just being used/deceived by you for his "enlightening" information? (Even if that was not your intention, it still is what he perceived was going on.)

 

Its created enough awkwardness to make answering my calls uncomfortable for everyone. This is what makes me mad, almost as if i shouldn't even try.

Well, you do not HAVE to try if you do not want to. But it seems to me that YOU have the most to lose by not even trying. Everybody else appears to be having their same happy and fulfilling relationships with each other.

 

i need my friends, i need them to trust me. I still to this day can't figure out why he is being so hard on me

There is that victim mentality again -- him being so hard on you...as if you have been the epitome of innocence, understanding and compassion. Have you considered what your friends have needed FROM you, and if you have really been acting in the most honest (trustworthy) manner that was possible for you?

 

From what you've posted, it can as easily be that your friends have been waiting for you to demonstrate some self-accountability, whereas you may have been more focused on upholding your own image and finding ways to blame, excuse and whine about the situation you put yourself in.

 

I spoke to a friend last night. i said I felt like this has gone on to long.

but i believe he took this to far, that there are things he has misinterpreted, and he should have left this between me and him.

So...it's okay for YOU to talk to other friends about it (as recently as last night) but he "should have left this between [you] and him"??? How are you reconciling that for yourself, and how are you expecting your friends to reconcile such double-standards? I strongly suspect this is not the ONE instance in your life where you're holding others accountable to different standards than you hold yourself.

 

I would like to work with these people as well when i am done with school.

Then act like somebody that THEY will want to work with when you're done school.

 

I could text him an I'm sorry but i believe he took this to far,

That's an instance of you not having any empathy for him. Accurate or not, he has felt betrayed, used and deceived by you. From his perspective, YOU went way too far past any boundary of his.

 

If you want your friends back, and to work with some of these people in the future, then what's got to change is your own (rather narrow and self-centred) perspective and attitude. IMHO, it's needed but, more importantly, it's all that is within your own power, authority and control.

 

At the end of it, you are left with having to find your 'nads, man up, and ask this guy if he will please allow you 30 minutes of his life so that he can help you to improve your own life. (It honestly sounds as if you need him a helluva lot more than he needs you, at this stage.)

Or. You are left with having to work towards accepting that all these relationships are shot to hell, and having to start developing a new social network.

 

Whatever you choose for yourself, I really do wish you the best of luck.

[frankyb]

I'm not sure what you meant by "what I am feeding my friends", other then that I can understand most of what you are saying. Although I do think he has been no angel when it comes to this stuff in the past as well as nobody else is perfect in this social network. So you ask why did I talk to other people about it when he wouldn't keep it between me and him. Because he went off talking to everybody except me about it and I felt I had to do damage control. So if there is one thing I will take from this it is that the one time I travel down the path of ex girlfriends he is famous for the world comes down on me. I didn't even think he even had any care she even existed. they hadn't dated in 3 years and he was talking about getting engaged to someone he had been with for two. I stayed away from her all those years out of respect for him. He just talked about how much he hated her and she just talked about how she didn't want me to tell him because she was afraid he would herass her. It just got out of hand.

 

By apologizing to him first and foremost I feel that that is me admiting to my intention of purposly and maliciously decieving him as he sees it. He trashed my integrity and tryed to turn people against me instead of talking to me. And may I remind you this is all over a girl! This whole bit about conversations with him about her is just a card he is pplaying and blowing out of proportion. Sometimes things happen. He has been with a handful of friends exgirlfriends behind there backs. They got over it. This is the one time it happend to him. Thats the Problem.

 

If you still think I should justy say I'm sorry...I will.

 

I was wondering if you could expand on your theory of wht seems to be people having to apologise for what other people percieve things to be.

[Ronni_W]

It's possible that you're actually getting to the 'thing' that has kept you guys on the opposite side of the fence, so to speak.

 

You said that you heard "a long time ago" that he was upset about the conversations. That does not match with you subsequently saying that it is "a card he IS playing", as if it's a more recent position that he's adopted.

 

Putting all your posts together, it appears that the real bug up his ass is that he believes that you used your conversations with him to gain 'intelligence' on the girl. It is your (mis)use of the conversations that left him feeling "betrayed" and "deceived". NOT because you dated her but because, as far as he is aware, you used, betrayed and deceived him.

 

Again, it is HIS perspective that you're dealing with. I'm not necessarily saying that you INTENDED to use the conversations that way, but that is how he ended up perceiving the situation...that is how YOU came across to him. Regardless of how indignant and offended it makes you feel, something about what you did or said did manage to convey that as your possible motive.

 

Your explanation-apology would naturally include that you did NOT intend to do that but you realize that, based on your words and/or actions, he got the wrong impression. Your apology would be for conveying the message that HE got (even if he got the message garbled), for not being clearer in your words and actions (which obviously would have alleviated the whole mess), and for not getting his PoV sooner.

That is totally different than admitting "guilt" to something of which you are not guilty (which would just be stupid to do, IMO.)

 

The problem actually is that, right from the start, you did a poor job of defending your integrity -- reasons that are coming through in your post include you going into blame, getting defensive, not hearing/understanding what was his real complaint, not being able to see his point of view, acting like a victim, and making excuses instead of owning your part of things.

 

It's totally up to you to decide whether or not you'll try to resolve this. It would seem that there are more advantages than disadvantages to trying, but that's just based on my own interpretation of how the situation has impacted your life.

[frankyb]

It's possible that you're actually getting to the 'thing' that has kept you guys on the opposite side of the fence, so to speak.

 

You said that you heard "a long time ago" that he was upset about the conversations. That does not match with you subsequently saying that it is "a card he IS playing", as if it's a more recent position that he's adopted.

 

Putting all your posts together, it appears that the real bug up his ass is that he believes that you used your conversations with him to gain 'intelligence' on the girl. It is your (mis)use of the conversations that left him feeling "betrayed" and "deceived". NOT because you dated her but because, as far as he is aware, you used, betrayed and deceived him.

 

Again, it is HIS perspective that you're dealing with. I'm not necessarily saying that you INTENDED to use the conversations that way, but that is how he ended up perceiving the situation...that is how YOU came across to him. Regardless of how indignant and offended it makes you feel, something about what you did or said did manage to convey that as your possible motive.

 

Your explanation-apology would naturally include that you did NOT intend to do that but you realize that, based on your words and/or actions, he got the wrong impression. Your apology would be for conveying the message that HE got (even if he got the message garbled), for not being clearer in your words and actions (which obviously would have alleviated the whole mess), and for not getting his PoV sooner.

That is totally different than admitting "guilt" to something of which you are not guilty (which would just be stupid to do, IMO.)

 

The problem actually is that, right from the start, you did a poor job of defending your integrity -- reasons that are coming through in your post include you going into blame, getting defensive, not hearing/understanding what was his real complaint, not being able to see his point of view, acting like a victim, and making excuses instead of owning your part of things.

 

It's totally up to you to decide whether or not you'll try to resolve this. It would seem that there are more advantages than disadvantages to trying, but that's just based on my own interpretation of how the situation has impacted your life.

 

 

Wow that realy makes allot of sense. Perhaps I have been going about this totaly wrong. This is a complex delicate situation that requires communication though. I thought me an him were going to do lunch. He doesn't seem to be following through. perhaps because he hears me defending myself to others when I hadn't even fully grasped exactly how he felt and what he felt about. But like you said this was unintentional. I remebering walking away from some of those conversations feeling like this is wrong. So what should I do now? I feel like the apology should be thought out very carefuly because he believes so much that i did have malicious intent, could it be that saying to him that he had a misinterpretation of my intenions would be an insult to his inteligence?

[Ronni_W]

Yes, exactly!

The same bug is still up his ass because, up until now, you never 100% 'got' what it was about (for him) and so you haven't been able to give him what HE needs to hear about it (in order to feel okay within himself.) He was only hearing excuses and defensiveness through the grapevine (to his ears, that's all it was.)

 

You don't have to make it all complex and delicate, really. Now that you KNOW the dynamics, you are totally liberated...free to take the higher road because you know that you will STILL have your integrity and dignity in tact.

 

You could, for example, message him along the lines of, "Hey Guy! I finally get it that I've been a stubborn ass. Would love to talk in person at your convenience. Wishing you the best." (How is he going to NOT respond, right?)

 

When you get in person, then you just totally own your part and don't bother if or not he is also able to take responsibility for his part. No blaming, defending, bringing up his old behaviour, talking about how you've been feeling hard done by, indignant, offended, etc., etc., etc.

 

Maybe once you guys are back on track you'll be able to laugh about that over a beer (or a 2-4 of them) but just keep it very light and present-day for your first meet. Would be my suggestion.

 

Again, wishing you much luck with it. You totally can turn this around now!

[Ronni_W]

could it be that saying to him that he had a misinterpretation of my intenions would be an insult to his inteligence?

OOPS, forgot to talk about that. Yeah...you want to frame things from a 'Frank' perspective (using "I" statements.) If you need it, there's a short paragraph about those, approximately half-way through this article: http://ezinearticles.com/?Assertive-Communication---6-Tips-For-Effective-Use&id=10259

 

I realize that MY words and actions weren't clear, and that left you with the impression that I was acting maliciously. I can totally see how that left you feeling betrayed and deceived. I haven't been able to see your perspective because I was just stuck in my knowing that I did NOT have any malicious intent. I now realize that, despite my good intentions, you were upset by my actions/words but I just couldn't see that these last 2 years. I am sorry for my part...what can I do to get us back on track again?

 

Like that, see? It doesn't have to be complicated at all. In fact, keep it as simple as possible...less chance for further misinterpretations and hard feelings

[frankyb]

Ya know I've seen situations like this before work out better when someone just denied the whole thing. I never wanted to keep this from him. When he asked I thought the noble thing was to own it. But I guess your right it is the percieved deception that is the issue. My sister thinks he was afraid I would throw him under the bus to her about stuff i knew about him or tell people stuff she had told me about him. thats why he wanted me away from everybody.

 

Plus I remeber a time I looked at the girls text messaging and found a message from another guy. She went ape **** and got all pissed at me for looking at her texts. So there I was taking responsibility for my actions apologizing. Turns out down the road she was ****ing him and herassing mty ex friend at the same time. Now also he is herassing her but I was under the impression she was innocent in all this. Did I throw him under the bus no? The whole time she was beggng me not to tell him because he would terrorize her. I saw him send nasty texts to her. Is this part of the information I was getting? that he was afraid I would tell her? Or is it thje advice he thinks I was getting? If I asked any questions about her it was because I was trying to get a feel for setting the stage for everyone to get along. I've talked to him about girls for yers before this even went down. I dated other girls at this time to. So now he assumes every chick i was talking about was her. But this all has nothing to with all this right? Him telling people he was going to smash my face in and trashing my name without even taking the time to sit down with me. All of the guys exes he has nailed behind there backs. all of this should be put aside so i can own up for my role in his percieved perception right? just want to be sure.

 

 

OK lets move along. sorry had to vent.

 

 

Yes, exactly!

 

You don't have to make it all complex and delicate, really. Now that you KNOW the dynamics, you are totally liberated...free to take the higher road because you know that you will STILL have your integrity and dignity in tact.

 

 

 

Please explain to me how my integrity and dignity will still be in tact. Aren't essentialy saying I'm somebody who can't be trusted , someone who is reckless, irresponsible or careless? What integrity is there i that? what dignity would i still have?

 

 

OOPS, forgot to talk about that. Yeah...you want to frame things from a 'Frank' perspective (using "I" statements.) If you need it, there's a short paragraph about those, approximately half-way through this article: http://ezinearticles.com/?Assertive-Communication---6-Tips-For-Effective-Use&id=10259

 

I realize that MY words and actions weren't clear, and that left you with the impression that I was acting maliciously. I can totally see how that left you feeling betrayed and deceived. I haven't been able to see your perspective because I was just stuck in my knowing that I did NOT have any malicious intent. I now realize that, despite my good intentions, you were upset by my actions/words but I just couldn't see that these last 2 years. I am sorry for my part...what can I do to get us back on track again?

 

Like that, see? It doesn't have to be complicated at all. In fact, keep it as simple as possible...less chance for further misinterpretations and hard feelings

 

Thats actually a long apology. I don't have his email, which by the way I don't need him forwarding to the world. I don't think i'm going to write him a letter thats just strange, we are guys. Plus I don't have his address. Asking somebody for it would be strange. Whats a good text message?

[Ronni_W]

You're right -- leave the explanation-apology for your in-person meeting. Sorry if I wasn't clear about that. Your text is just to say that you finally get it, and to let him know that you'd like to meet with him to talk about it in person.

 

I dunno. To me, taking responsibility for having conveyed something that was so wrongly interpreted totally upholds your integrity and dignity.

Far as I can tell from your posts, you have not yet "owned" that YOU messed up by not being clear in your own words and actions. NOT that you acted with malice or deception, only that you somehow did something that made it come across like you were acting that way..

 

Aren't essentialy saying I'm somebody who can't be trusted, someone who is reckless, irresponsible or careless? What integrity is there i that? what dignity would i still have?

 

Is that the truth, then? That you actually, consciously, deliberately acted like that? I've been under the impression that you did NOT do anything like that on purpose but...???

 

At no time have I suggested to lie or take responsibility for ANYTHING that is not on you. His perception and subsequent reaction is on him, your words/actions that contributed to his misinterpretation is on you.

 

But if you actually, consciously, deliberately were "reckless, irresponsible or careless", and really are "somebody who can't be trusted"...well, then. I've totally misinterpreted your words.

And then also...yeah. It is difficult to uphold "integrity" when none was present. (Which, right now, I have NO idea if it was or was not present. You've confused me as much as you, apparently, confused your friend. )

[frankyb]

But if you actually, consciously, deliberately were "reckless, irresponsible or careless", and really are "somebody who can't be trusted"...well, then. I've totally misinterpreted your words.

And then also...yeah. It is difficult to uphold "integrity" when none was present. (Which, right now, I have NO idea if it was or was not present. You've confused me as much as you, apparently, confused your friend. )

 

 

No didn't mean to confuse you, maybe i'm reading into it to much. What I meant was by apologizing to him am I not admiting that I am all those things. A simple apology would seem to be that I have deliberitley done something wrong no? Now Apologizing for my actions that made him misinterpret my intentions seems more complex. Not many words to work with in a text. Thanx for your help by the way. I'm willing to take responsibilty. But like I said before I don't have a reputation for having this kind of behavior. I'm not about to start having one now. Or shall I say contribute to actions that would make people percieve that I have one. lol

 

sorry couldn't resist. you truly have been a big help. i'm jusrt frustrated.

[Ronni_W]

I don't have a reputation for having this kind of behavior. I'm not about to start having one now. Or shall I say contribute to actions that would make people percieve that I have one. lol

I must be losing it -- I totally get what you mean -- AND I actually believe that is the most accurate way to say it!

by apologizing to him am I not admiting that I am all those things.

No, apologies do not mean that we are agreeing with others' wrong impressions and misinterpretations. It just means that we are sorry for our, er, contributions to their wrong impressions and distorted perceptions. [EDIT: Same as. If you apologize for stepping on someone's foot or spilling coffee all over them -- you are NOT saying that you did it deliberately, you are only acknowledging that you understand and accept that you helped their foot hurt and their clothing to get all yucked up. /END EDIT]

 

Very often, our part is a LOT smaller than they are perceiving. But that's fine. We don't have to say, "My part is 5% and that's all I'm talking about here." To me, part of 'integrity and dignity' is sometimes being able and willing to man up to more than our "fair share" -- as long as we are NOT copping to crap about our Self that ends up being dishonest or inauthentic.

 

A simple apology would seem to be that I have deliberitley done something wrong no? Now Apologizing for my actions that made him misinterpret my intentions seems more complex.

Well, first. Are you looking for 'simple/easy', or are you looking for a mutually satisfying outcome?

And. Yes, maybe you are reading too much into it and making it way over-complicated for yourself.

Send three consecutive texts, if you have to: [1] Srry hv bn an ass. [2] Lts do lnch. [3] Plse?

What the heck is so hard about that???

 

In any case. My suggestion (in post 9) is just a suggestion...you do need to put it in your own words, shorten it up, expand it, do whatever you want with it. But. That's the 'basic recipe', if you will. Your 'proper' and genuine apology (where you are only taking responsibility for YOUR stuff) will require some thought and, it appears, more words than you might feel comfortable with.

 

Otherwise, yes. If you just go with a blanket, "I'm sorry" -- then that can (most likely will) be taken as you admitting/confessing that you are guilty of doing ALL that he thinks-says you are.

And yes...that would be you contributing to his new (mis)perception of you

 

Glad I've been able to help. I get that it's frustrating, so no probs.