Salary Negotiations

[Karen75]

Does anyone have any experience in salary negotiations?

 

I had 2 interviews with a company that went REALLY well. Basically this company was hiring an Office Manager, they hired someone else but a few months later I submitted a resume again asking if they had any other positions open. I got an immediate call and it went from there. I know that they offered the Office Manager position at $40K to $55K and after interviewing with them it looks as if my position would include MORE responsibilities than that position AND there would be definite unpaid overtime (salary position) in the summer. I have no problem with the added responsibility or the over time BUT they are only offering me $35K with the POTENTIAL for a 10% bonus if company goals are met. They do have medical that I would have to pay 50% of and no dental. It is a small company and it is growing and it is a company that I really feel I could love (they know this and it is part of the reason they want me) but I told them I NEED to make at LEAST what I make currently which is $38,500. I'm not asking for the world here.... He basically responded (email) saying that he 'hopes the $35K would turn into $40K+ with bonuses'. I KNOW that this company really wants me there as the personalities, work ethics and goals are a dead on match but what do I do from here?Truthfully I already feel that the hope is gone as they did not even counter me on my counter offer but the email still makes me feel like they want me to take the position. It is my personal belief that they hired the Office Manager who is not doing all that thay had hoped (that's why they want me) so their funds are now tied up in her salary therefore making my starting salary capped at $35K. I just feel like they are asking for a LOT but do not (or are unable) to pay what I am worth. They didn't even suggest something like "We can only start you at $35K but will give you a review in 90 days with a guarantee of $38,500 if expectations are met." Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

 

Karen

[Stone]

How are your benifits at your current job?

[Karen75]

Thanks for the quick reply!

 

Right now I have medical, dental (I pay 50%) and 2 weeks vacation. Even if they offered to pay full benefits but start at $35k, that would be better.... The new company knows this. I've been clear to them that I do want to work with/for them but just want to make what my current salary is. $3,500 should not be alot to them but it would make a HUGE difference to me.

 

I am debating on if I should pose some options to them .The position that they want me for is one that I will need to create policies and guidelines for the office. They also made mention that they want people who when they come to them with a problem they can alos supply some options on how to fix it. This may be a good chance for me to say "Look, you said you wanted someone to supply you with options so here are a few.." and if they still don't budge then it is done. One option that will still keep me comfortable is waiving tuition reimbursement for the first year. I told him before that the Community College is approx $3,500/yr so if I waive that, I am at the $38,500. This would be okay with me as the first year of employment I would be swamped with learning about THEM anyways so I would be too busy for school. What do you think about that?

 

K

[bluechocolate]

I told them I NEED to make at LEAST what I make currently which is $38,500

 

And they offered you less - tell them again and/or:

 

They didn't even suggest something like "We can only start you at $35K but will give you a review in 90 days with a guarantee of $38,500 if expectations are met."

 

Then you should suggest it - better yet, tell them you want it in writing, but be careful as to what their "expectations" are & how they are measured.

 

'hopes the $35K would turn into $40K+ with bonuses'

 

That is meaningless. I hope to be King of the World one day - doesn't mean it'll happen.

 

POTENTIAL for a 10% bonus if company goals are met

 

Why only POTENTIAL?

 

This is a small company so they may not have much leverage in terms of available capital to guarantee an improved income and/or bonus scheme. Do you know people who work there? How many raises have they received & how often? How long has the company been operating? How solvent is the company?

 

A bit of research & some judicious enquiries & you should be able to ascertain if they have the capacity to guarantee you a better salary rather than using words like "hope" and "potential".

 

Office Manager position at $40K to $55K and after interviewing with them it looks as if my position would include MORE responsibilities

 

If you are absolutely, 100% sure of that I wouldn't touch this job at all.

[Karen75]

I hope to be King of the World one day - doesn't mean it'll happen.

 

EXACTLY! I just can't base my future of potential. I still need to eat now!

 

 

Office Manager position at $40K to $55K and after interviewing with them it looks as if my position would include MORE responsibilities

 

If you are absolutely, 100% sure of that I wouldn't touch this job at all.

 

I am sure that it is more responsibility but in a different way. In a way that I would WANT it to be. Meaning I would be more hands on with the actual workings of the company and the work that they perform. This is a field that I really WANT to learn more about and feel that I have the potential to grow but from past experience if I accept this low salary and do alot of work and a lot overtime I will become resentful that I have to work so hard to achieve what I HAD for a salary.

 

I have no idea what others are making or what raise they have received. The company has been in business for about 6 years now but they are definitely growing. I have read many things about this company before I even sent a resume in.

[Artifact]

I would say if you need this extra money, stick to your guns. And when you offer other ways that they can meet your salary need (90 day raise, community college, etc.) make sure you do not waiver. If they say No, you cannot cave in. If they say Yes, then you know your value, and congratulations!

 

Maybe they can meet you half way?

[bluechocolate]

It sounds like you may have been a bit TOO enthusiastic about your desire to work there & they're going to use that to their advantage (ie. by offering you a lower salary).

 

As to the position - if you're happy that it's a different position & therefore would naturally come with a lower salary, then fine. Are there similar positions in this company and/or field that you can compare too? It sounds like you've done some research.

 

I would be upfront & honest about your salary requirements. Tell them you're willing to start lower but only if they can provide a written guarantee that they'll meet your initial salary expectations in a set period of time. Anybody would understand that you don't want to move backwards in salary on the basis of words like "hope" and "potential".

 

I have no idea what others are making or what raise they have received.

 

You could ask them - not for specific details of course - but generally how has salary growth been against company growth? How do they measure performance? Do they have any set policies & procedures for determining salary negotiations? What is the upper limit for this position? What is the logical progression from this position (ie. is there further potential up-stream?).

 

In the end I guess you're going to have to come to a balance as to your desire for this job & your belief in it's future and the $3,500 difference.

 

"Look, you said you wanted someone to supply you with options so here are a few.."

 

That is a great idea!

[Stone]

I agree the grass isn't always greener. Plus you are making more and the benifits are pretty close to what you already have. Potential isn't a very good word, you don't want to take a lower paying job with "hopes" of getting anything.

 

How about 401K's or IRA's? Witch company offers retirement?

[Karen75]

Okay this is the response that I plan on sending to him... Tell me what you think..

 

Thanks!!

 

"Hi X,

 

Thank you for your prompt reply to my email. While I understand the

possibilities of increased earnings through performance bonuses, I

still feel uncomfortable with your base salary offer. I got the impression, during our conversations, that the position we are currently discussing carried a similar level of responsibility to the Office Manager position that I originally applied for. As the listed salary range for that position was $40K - $55K I do not feel that my requirement of a starting base salary of $38.5K is unreasonable. While I am excited about the furtherance of my career and the possibilities of higher pay based on my performance and that of the organization, I feel that it would be financially damaging for me to take a cut in pay to accept this, or any, position.

 

It was expressed to me during our second interview that you want employees who will not just come to you with problems but also with possible solutions to the problem. My possible solution is this.. We have discussed that I would like to have tuition reimbursement so I can finish my degree in Business Management. I told you at that time that the 2 year program would run a cost of approx. $3,500/yr. So I would be willing to waive any tuition reimbursement for the first year. Not only would this put you in a better position to offer me the $38,500/yr salary but would also prove to you that I am willing compromise to make this come to fruition.

 

I am very interested in, and excited about, the business that you are in. With my experience, enthusiasm, and drive I'm sure that I would be a valuable member of your company in short order; I truly hope that we can work something out on this.

 

Sincerely,

 

Karen"

[MWC_LifeBeginsAt40]

I would tell them that you have worked very hard to get where you are, and you cannot accept anything less than your current salary of $38,500. (be firm about this).

 

You want to learn and grow in the position, not just offer experience to perform the basic requirements of the position. You are worth $38,500 now and with the continual learning of this position, you can and will be worth more over time.

 

There is no reason why they shouldn't offer you what you ask for. And yes, get it in writing if you have to wait 90 days to go from 35,000 to 38,500.

 

I like the tuition argument, but wouldn't offer it unless you really want the job, and you need it as a final negotiating tool.

[Karen75]

I believe that I have made it clear to them that not only do I want this position but I would be GREAT at it. This company deals with everything that I have beenn working on as a hobby for about 6 years now. I have a working knowledge of their industry beyond how to push the papers. BUT I have not shown them that I am OVERLY enthusiastic about this job. Do I want it? Yes. Am I will to take and unreasonable (to me) pay cut to get it? No. I just can't do that.

 

K

[Stone]

Originally posted by mom-wife-cheater

 

 

I like the tuition argument, but wouldn't offer it unless you really want the job, and you need it as a final negotiating tool.

 

I agree

[Karen75]

I do NOT want to offer that I take a reduced salalry with a 'possible' raise after 90 days because this is a newly created position and there is no way to really pin down what the goals will be. Plus I think it would show TOO much flexibility to them. 1) If I can make is 3 months at lower pay why not longer and 2) what if they don't give me the raise after 90 days? I would have to quit and then I would not even get unemployment 3) I would spend those 90 days thinking about what I gave up to go there and everytime I see the boss go out fo a fancy lunch I will think "He's eating my salary".

 

K

[Karen75]

Like I said. He wants someone with options to problems and tuition is one that I can feel comfortable living with. I feel like we ARE at the bottom of the negotiations. This is my last ditch effort to show good faith but still standing up for what I believe I am worth.

 

K

[MWC_LifeBeginsAt40]

Is there any way you can discuss it over the phone with them? Email is so impersonal and would not be effective. I added my input to make the point more direct with less explanation and rehashing of the interview.

 

Originally posted by Karen75

 

Thank you for your prompt reply to my email.

 

 

Replace or omit this whole section:

 

While I understand the possibilities of increased earnings through performance bonuses, I still feel uncomfortable with your base salary offer. I got the impression, during our conversations, that the position we are currently discussing carried a similar level of responsibility to the Office Manager position that I originally applied for. As the listed salary range for that position was $40K - $55K I do not feel that my requirement of a starting base salary of $38.5K is unreasonable.

 

Keep this but change the last sentence:

While I am excited about the furtherance of my career and the possibilities of higher pay based on my performance and that of the organization,

 

Add this:

 

I would like to further negotiate a salary equivalent to my current rate of $38,500. I feel that the level of responsibility of this position as well as my past experience makes this a reasonable offer. (avoid negative wording like "not unreasonable").

 

 

It was expressed to me during our second interview that you want employees who will not just come to you with problems but also with possible solutions to the problem. My possible solution is this.. We have discussed that I would like to have tuition reimbursement so I can finish my degree in Business Management. I told you at that time that the 2 year program would run a cost of approx. $3,500/yr. So I would be willing to waive any tuition reimbursement for the first year. Not only would this put you in a better position to offer me the $38,500/yr salary but would also prove to you that I am willing compromise to make this come to fruition.

 

Only use tuition in further negotions.

 

Add this:

I am a person who will find solutions to problems and I may have an alternative suggestion to present to you when we negotiate my salary. I am willing to compromise in some areas tomake this offer come to fruition.

 

 

 

 

I am very interested in, and excited about, the business that you are in. With my experience, enthusiasm, and drive I'm sure that I would be a valuable member of your company in short order; I truly hope that we can work something out on this.

 

Sincerely,

 

Karen"

 

 

Me to Karen:....I have alot of experience in memo writing, plain language, getting to the point, and what to omit so hope I have helped you out a bit.

[Artifact]

Originally posted by Karen75

While I am excited about the furtherance of my career and the possibilities of higher pay based on my performance and that of the organization, I feel that it would be financially damaging for me to take a cut in pay to accept this, or any, position.

 

It sounds good to me, except for this one part. I don't think you own any further explanation than "I am unable to take a cut in pay to accept this, or any, position."

 

Somehow saying it would be financially damaging sounds harsh; It is almost as if you are so fragile financially you would fall apart.

[bluechocolate]

I think that email sounds very good - and I like the suggested changes.

 

Good Luck.

[Karen75]

MWC,

 

Thanks for the input.

 

I am using email to be able to say all the points that I want without getting sidetracked. It is important to me to get the primary issues resolved via email for this reason.

 

One question.. Why take out the line "As the listed salary range for that position was $40K - $55K I do not feel that my requirement of a starting base salary of $38.5K is unreasonable. " I think this is an important line as it is reminding them that I am aware of their offered range for a similar position. I would be willin to word it seperate but I think it is important to remind them that I already have information that would make me feel that they do not see my comparable worth for a comparable position.

 

K

[Karen75]

Originally posted by Artifact

It sounds good to me, except for this one part. I don't think you own any further explanation than "I am unable to take a cut in pay to accept this, or any, position."

 

Somehow saying it would be financially damaging sounds harsh; It is almost as if you are so fragile financially you would fall apart.

 

Personally I don't think it makes me sound financially fragile, I think it reminds them that I am a person with responsibilities and needs. He had stated a few times that he cares about his employees professionally AND on a personal level and I think this reminds them that it is not all about what I will be TAKING from them but that they would that the salary I am requesting would keep me in my good personal financial position thereby allowing me to be more focused at work. He told me about a few guys who work for him that had recently had babies (theri wives, not them) and he offered to find them babysitters so they can enjoy their PERSONAL time more which would also allow them more focus at work thereby becoming more beneficial to the company. I think it is important to remind him that happy, productive people make happy and productive employees.

 

K

[MWC_LifeBeginsAt40]

Originally posted by Karen75

 

 

Personally I don't think it makes me sound financially fragile, I think it reminds them that I am a person with responsibilities and needs. He had stated a few times that he cares about his employees professionally AND on a personal level and I think this reminds them that it is not all about what I will be TAKING from them but that they would that the salary I am requesting would keep me in my good personal financial position thereby allowing me to be more focused at work. He told me about a few guys who work for him that had recently had babies (theri wives, not them) and he offered to find them babysitters so they can enjoy their PERSONAL time more which would also allow them more focus at work thereby becoming more beneficial to the company. I think it is important to remind him that happy, productive people make happy and productive employees.

 

K

 

Then tell them that if they can match your current salary of $38,500 to start, you will be in a better "personal financial position thereby allowing your focus to be more beneficial to the company" (without having them think you would not be focused no matter what they paid you.)

 

Karen, yes you are aware of what they are paying the office manager, but you were not hired for that position and at this point, they know more about the responsibilities and how it compares to the higher paid position which is why I would not recommend bringing it up. They may feel that not giving you that job is always going to be a thorn in your side.

[Karen75]

I have changed my first paragraph to this:

 

"While I understand the possibilities of increased earnings through performance bonuses, I

still feel uncomfortable with your base salary offer. I feel that it would be financially burdening for me to take a cut in pay to accept this, or any, position. By matching my current salary of $38,500, I will able to maintain my current financial position thereby allowing my focus to remain on what would be most beneficial to the company."

 

How's that?

[MWC_LifeBeginsAt40]

very well said!

 

Best of Luck!

[Karen75]

This is what I got back this morning... The good thing is now he is working faster. We were at a 23 hour difference between me sending a reply and him answering..

Karen,

 

 

"Sorry for the delay getting back to you. I think we could make this work. My suggestion is below:

 

-36,500.00 Base Salary

 

-5-10% of Salary based upon Performance bonus

 

-50% Health

 

-No tuition for first year

 

-Probation period of 8 months to review and discuss adjustments/increase

 

-2 weeks vacation

 

Questions: If this works what is the earliest you can start? What do you intend to do once you get your degree? Will you leave, etc?"

 

So basically He wants me to give up a $3,500 benefit (school) to take a $1500 pay increase. Sounds like we are going backwards... And I find it almost comical that he is not meeting my needs yet is already afraid that I will leave him. Does he not see that he would be able to have security for me to stay if he gave me what I needed for salary? He KNEW what I am currently making during the first interview and he knows that my benefits here are better than what he is offering. So He is asking me to give up, Tuition, dental and overtime pay for LESS of a base than what I make now....

 

K

[MWC_LifeBeginsAt40]

Originally posted by Karen75

 

-36,500.00 Base Salary

-5-10% of Salary based upon Performance bonus

-50% Health

-No tuition for first year

-Probation period of 8 months to review and discuss adjustments/increase

-2 weeks vacation

 

Questions: If this works what is the earliest you can start? What do you intend to do once you get your degree? Will you leave, etc?"

 

K

 

If you get a 5% bonus, that puts you at $38,325 which is pretty close to what you were asking. The tuition part sucks. Some companies pay for tuition but make you sign an agreement to stay for one full year after they give you the reimbursement. If you quit, you have to pay them back a pro-rated amount. If they pay for your full tuition, will he accept a signed commitment for you to stay for at least two years or else you pay them back or something like that?

 

There is always a risk with changing jobs. If this is a company who treats their employees well, then you probably don't have to worry about them going back on their word. If you can impress them in the first year then you should be confident that you will get what you want when you ask for it in future negotiations. They want you to prove that you deserve the $38,500 - this way they feel like they are in control.

 

You could also re-evaluate where you will be in 3 yrs in this new job vs where you will be in your current job 3 yrs from now if this will help in your decision.

 

Good luck!

[Karen75]

I will NOT be in my current job in 3 years. I would kill myself here... HAHAHAHA!

 

I still don't think that I am asking for anything more than fair. I am asking for my CURRENT salalry which is NOT high. Their way of letting me prove myself is through bonuses and raises. THAT'S where they can cut corners as they are allowing themselves that. I, on the other hand, would be taking on more risk than necessary. Would my bonus be based on performance of the company and not personl performace? If so, what happens when Billy Bob crashes his backhoe into a house and the company ahs to eat a half mil in damages. I work my ass of all year for something like to happen?

 

This is what I plan to reply with:

 

"Hi, X

 

I am trying to look at this from the perspective of what my trade-offs would be and how I would be able to work at EMG and feel most comfortable about it. I have no problem with unpaid overtime, lack of dental or forfeiting tuition reimbursement for the first year but what I need in lieu of those things is a match of my current salary of $38,500.

 

I want to go back to school so I can have a degree under my belt. I think that if your company is really heading in the direction I think it is, this could be a long term career move for me and I look forward to learning and growing with the company.

 

If we did reach an agreement I would need to give my current employer 2 weeks notice as a professional courtesy to him. Meaning that my first day at EMG could be Friday, March 18, 2005.

 

Thank you,

Karen"