Bullying/sexual harassment

[HtotheN]

I am a middle-aged female working in an IT department at an institution of higher learning in a southern state where the good-ole-boy network is alive and well. I am the first and only female in the department and on the weekends, I work with a 70 year-old man and he is the one that is bothering me. There was no problem for the first few months but then all of a sudden, this man starting saying things to me that could only be seen as "picking on me" although I realize how juvenile that description sounds. I am a long-term temporary employee and I am trying to secure a permanent position there and do not want to be perceived as a troublemaker so I have been trying to handle things on my own.

 

Nothing he says is ever really awful, but I am the only one that he does this with, and the comments are always slightly demeaning and full of ridicule. I spoke with him in private about the matter and he claimed that he "meant nothing by it" and I told him that while I understood that, that I wanted these episodes to stop, and I was very clear about it and he understood. The following weekend, he acted as though our conversation had not happened because he did the same thing that he always does. I spoke to him a second time, same kind of exchange with a promise of it stopping. Coworkers have noticed it, including another temp who works the shift after mine. In fact, that temp told me that he noticed that the old man seems to usually say these things when my boss is not around and after thinking about that, I realized that he was right about that. Weeks pass, the same happens every single weekend and I am becoming increasingly stressed out because even when he is not saying these things, I know that it is coming at some point during the night and I am becoming pissed off and bothered by all of this.

 

After noticing some bickering between the old man and me, the boss asks me about it. I explained to him what has been going on, told him about the two different conversations I had with the old man and that neither helped since it continues. The boss makes sure to point out that I am also making remarks similar to the old man's but I tell him that this is purely out of my frustration and not knowing what else to do. The boss comments that "in all the years that he has worked with this man, that he has never noticed him doing this with anyone one else" as if I am to blame or something. Way to victim-blame! I was too frustrated to think of what to say but later, I wished that I would have told him that the old man's prior behavior is irrelevant, and that what he is doing now to me simply needs to STOP. The boss also talks about how the old man is from a different time, blah blah blah as if this excuses his apparent sexism. The boss asks me if he needs to talk to the old man, but he also makes is fairly clear that he really doesn't want to. (BTW, the boss is a sexist pig and that is not a description that I ever throw around lightly.) I told him that he does not need to talk to the old man, and that hopefully, it will be okay from now on.

During the next several weeks, things did greatly improve and I was very glad of that. I did notice that the old man usually did the "picking" at midnight when a certain program had to be run and in the course of that, this other night guy had to do that with him (the work). The old man would always do the picking, I would respond, then the three of us would chat while the program ran. I kind of realized that this picking was the old man's way of breaking the ice and so I decided that rather than him doing his usual thing, I would talk to him first so as to avoid the usual. This worked. Days after that realization, I told the boss of this realization and he said that he had noticed that I myself had said some things to the old man that were similar to those that he would say to me. I said that he only heard mine because I was not smart and sneaky like the old man, since the old man always made sure to sneak his comments in when the boss was not around. I asked him what he had heard me say and he could not remember but he did remember me saying them. (This was during the time that things were still bad and I was still frustrated and unsure of what to do.) I guess it never occurred to the boss that it was still going on. As I type this, I cannot believe that I allowed it to continue for so long because I am no doormat but somehow, I didn't handle this the way I normally would.

 

For the past few weeks, I notice the old man making jokes about fat women all the time. For example, when leaving for my dinner break, he says "don't eat too much because I don't like fat women" to which I reply "And that is relevant to me how?" and he laughs and I leave. I am not overweight but I have shared with some coworkers that I used to be 40 pounds overweight and lost the extra weight a few years ago and don't ever want to gain it back. My point being that I think that he is suddenly making these fat jokes because he thinks that this is a sensitive subject for me. It is not, but is is annoying. This past weekend, he said "do you know how you can tell when a woman is too fat?" and I begrudgingly asked how, and he said "when there is more than a mouthful here" while pointing to his chest area, "and more than a handful here" while pointing to his posterior. Of course, no one else was around to hear this. I looked at him with the most no-nonsense look that I could muster and said "that was inappropriate, and I do not appreciate that." He said the same thing he always says, that he "meant nothing by it" and walks off. Later that night before I left, he reiterated that he meant nothing by it, and I said, "well, now you know better." Up until this exchange, I would characterize the exchanges as annoying banter, and bullying. But this stupid joke, I would characterize as sexual harassment.

 

As I said before, I do not want to get a bad rep for being a troublemaker but I have had it. Because of how my boss has mishandled things up to now, I know it would be a waste of time to go to him about this. I think that I need to talk to the boss' boss (who happens to be female, and happens to hate the boss.)

 

I would appreciate any feedback, and I apologize for rambling.

Edited January 6, 2015 by HtotheN

[Emilia]

Do you have to work there? Are there many opportunities where you live? Sounds like the mentality at the company is rotten to the core. You manager is useless and sounds petty. Why do you work there?

[HtotheN]

I would just like to add this:

 

I do not usually let people get the best of me. I am a military veteran, and a grown woman with teenaged children. I have never experienced anything like this before. I guess that since I have always loved old people so much (still miss my grandpa who, in my opinion, walked on water), I saw this man as harmless so I never saw this coming.

[HtotheN]

Do you have to work there? Are there many opportunities where you live? Sounds like the mentality at the company is rotten to the core. You manager is useless and sounds petty. Why do you work there?

 

I am actively pursuing other avenues of employment but after being out of the workforce for over five years doing the SAHM and homeschool thing, I felt lucky to get this job and will not leave until I have another one.

[Taramere]

I'm sorry that your boss has not been supportive here. There are a few things you need to check out. First of all, although I don't know employment law in the US - from a quick check it seems that temporary workers are entitled to join unions

 

Labor Board Makes Joining Union Easier for Temp Staff - NYTimes.com

 

If you can do this, I would. But check whether firing somebody for being in a union is unlawful in your state. I should have thought it would be unlawful everywhere, but still...check. Once in a union, you're in a stronger position. If this matter were eventually to end up in a grievance, potentially you'd be able to take a union rep with you.

 

Check the legality, in your state, of secretly recording conversations like this. You should be fine, so long as it's a conversation that you are a participant in (as opposed to, say, a conversation between other people that you're not party to), but make sure you check the situation out all the same.

 

If it's okay to do so, then I would go ahead and covertly record him. I'd also tell him (recorded) "I'm not comfortable with the personal comments you make to me. Cut it out or I'm going to raise a grievance against you." Then if he doesn't stop, you'll be in a position where you can raise a grievance and prove a) that he said these things, and b) that you told him to stop. You might need that evidence, because from what you're saying here the boss is very much on this guy's side....and you also describe this institution as very much an Old Boys' Network.

 

That's how I think you would need to approach matters if you want this resolved. The alternative would be to carry on putting up with it. That's what some people advocate. I don't. In my experience, provided they have good evidence of their complaint being substantiated, the people who kick up a fuss are less likely, not more, to carry on getting a hard time (and potentially be fired) than the people who just try to suck it up because they're afraid of being branded as troublemakers.

 

Finally, check the employee manual for your institution and find out if mediation is an option in cases of employee dispute. If it is, then I think asking for mediation would be a good idea before going down any grievance route. I would particularly recommend mediation if you choose to record this man's comments to you as it's something you could disclose confidentially to the mediator during any private, confidential sessions you have with them in the course of the mediation. And if you can afford it, run all of this by an employment lawyer in your area before taking any drastic steps.

[HtotheN]

Thank you, Taramere. I already have a recording device and I was thinking about using it for this issue. I am in a state which is not very union-friendly but I will look into everything that you mentioned. Thanks for the information.

 

Thanks also to Emilia.

[d0nnivain]

You said you are a long term temporary employee, if you were placed there by an agency, get them to help.

[Yasuandio]

I just got a very nifty device for a certain research project. It appears too be a ball point pen. I'm going to be wearing front in the pocket of a lab jacket for my interview of a certain subject.

 

When you open the ball point pen, it has a key that plugs into any url charger, and can also plug into a computer. Once your "pen" is charged, you can simply tap the top of the pen once, to put it on "stand-by," which causes. A tiny blinking amber light to blink on the backside of pen. If and when you wish to do a live video recording, then you tap the pen at the top one time, as if you are about to use the pen. (This tap causes one blue flash, and then the pen in automatically in video and recording mode). You can hold the pen in your hand and take notes, lay it on table, but the video is best if the pen is in a still position in a shirt pocket.

 

Once your video is complete, open your pen, and download your video into your computer. Like magic, your memorable event is on record, in full color. The pen cost 59.00.

 

Tape recording would work, but nothing speaks like a video recording - especially with the titty/fanny joke. I would have a back up digital recorder as well, as the pen has a short life, and takes some time to recharge. Of course, there are some higher quality pens around, but this one, called the "QSEE Shadow 1" will serve your purposes.

 

Sorry, I've been through litation with a jerk like this in the South. He actually sued me and a student I wascadvising at a University. This old man was touching the students, holding hands, wanting the particular "redhead" student to get his pill out of his pants pocket, etc. Many students came to me, and I told them of the University Policy of Sexual Harrassment, as was my job. 99% of these student just wanted to have me to talk to about it, and were afraid to comr forward, understandably so. However, one student, from New York, did not wish to play the game, tape recorded the perverted classroom nonsense, and filed a grievance, AFTER she graduated and had received her letters of recommendation.

 

When she filed her grienvance, this old man went on the offence, and brough a serious lawsuit against her and myself (I was the student's university advisor) for Civil Conspiracy. Thankfully, the State had to provide Legal Council for me, and the case hung over my head for six years, and was eventually dropped. The student could not afford council, and was forced to drop her grievance in exchange for dropping the Civil Conspiracy charge. He looked pathetic in the depositions. dhe did well, as the truth was on her side. The department knew this nasty stuff but covered for him, saying, same old, same old. "That is hoe his generation is...."

 

You won't beat this one. GET EVIDENCE. Lots of it. Don't make any complaints. You are already perceived as a trouble maker. Stay under the radar, and just gather gobs of damning evidence. Meanwhile, be looking for another position. Yas

[preraph]

Before recording, consult an attorney to see if it's a felony or something. I know it's illegal in many instances. But if you find out it's okay, that would be a great avenue. Remember that in the end, the recordings Mel Gibson's woman had of him going batsh*t crazy didn't end up doing anything except ruining his reputation. No jail time, no charges. And there were threats to file on her for making the recordings.

 

I'm well used to navigating the good ol boy network and it sucks women are still having to do it. Your boss is as much part of it as this old guy. Your boss has likely already let your temp agency, if there was one, know about this. You need to tell them in writing about this issue. Make a log of all the comments he's made and that your boss has made. Do not expect your temp agency to protect you. Half the reason they get clients is because of their bad work conditions and losing so many people and they want to make it look like they are not discriminatory and they do so by not being the one who actually hires you. They let the temp agency take all that to avoid lawsuits. When you can't take it upon yourself as the owner of a company to hire only men or only good looking women or only white people, a company can have a temp agency do it for them and take any heat down the road.

 

Anything you write down needs to go to both places.

 

Also begin emailing your boss verbatim the comments this man is making to you. Whoever has the most paperwork wins in cases like this. Any witnesses come in handy as well. Put down the dates, the conversations with your boss about it and the dates of that and his comments. Check the employee manual for what procedure you are supposed to follow. It may differ. Sometimes it's chain of command, starting with your boss, going up the chain from there. Sometimes HR wants to handle it all.

 

I worked at an auto dealership where you could make anonymous complaints to them that they would then notify the bosses of. I used it on the occasion of a group of men trying to force me to ride around with their old coot of their same ethic background who apparently decided he wanted me for a gf. They withheld the lot golf carts from me and if they picked me up, would simply deliver me to the old coot. Can you believe that?? Like I was a hamburger they picked up for him at lunch. I made the anonymous complaint straightaway and was never bothered again by him or them. There were only two possible women who could have made the complaint, so I'm sure they figured out it was me. I didn't much care.

 

Meanwhile, your boss is creating a record designed to show that you are participating in the mutual harassment. So each time he makes a comment like that or writes it down, deny, deny, deny in writing. Keep good records to the contrary. Main thing is when he decides to release you or fire you, do not sign ANYTHING saying you did anything wrong or agree to severance pay IF you think you might want to initiate a lawsuit.

 

If in the employee manual you find out that you can go over your boss's head if the situation isn't resolved, then do that. But you must start doing everything in writing and keeping that log. It's better evidence if it's written and emailed (because then it's dated) as soon as it happens than if you state it from memory a year later. It will begin to be taken more seriously if it's signed and dated and written down the day of rather than what could be a cover story you made up down the line.

 

If you ever decided to file suit, you'd have to file on both the temp agency and the boss of the company. I'm not saying you should because it's a lot of time and stress and potentially money. If they offer you a severance package that's worth anything, take it, unless you're a justice fighter who can't live with that. Any severance package comes with you signing away any fault on the company and promising to shut up about them.

 

I've complained in writing at a bank job when I worked in the field. Me and my partner were low-level techs. We often had to call high-level techs out to fix something. One of them was known for his bullying and aggressiveness and rage. We'd heard stories of him shoving a Brink's guy before. He was verbally abusive to me and my partner and also threw things around. One day he called my partner Rainman and that's when I finally complained. The supervisor at the time was a young guy who was ambitious but truly didn't seem to give a crap. But by policy, he was bound to forward the report to the high-level tech's boss. My boss was a d*ck and never really spoke to me about it again. But things eased up, though the mean tech was looking pissed off, but then he always was pissed off. We noticed he wasn't answering our calls much anymore, someone else would, which was fine with us. A few months later, a new supervisor took over, and it happened to be the one who had been over the high level tech we reported. He met with his new team one at a time and I let him know about the past problem (wanting him to keep the raging tech away from us) and he was real nice about it and took care of everything from that point forward. I think the tech had to go to anger management. It was probably the best thing that ever happened to him.

[amaysngrace]

Call him limp dick every time he bothers you.

[Tayla]

I'd suggest contacting a local Employee Rights attorney for proper advisal.

 

THis person who is making such comments needs to be addressed by management in a timely fashion. He is creating an unwelcoming environment.

[amaysngrace]

I really think you should dish it back to him. Your boss already heard you making rude remarks to him and you still have a job there.

 

You may not like the game but at least learn how to play it. Otherwise you seem like a person who can dish it out but can't take it by complaining.

 

You're no angel. Your boss will attest to that. So put on your verbal gloves and get back in the ring.

 

That's how you handle this.

[LuckyLady13]

Sexual harassment by an old pervert at work. If I had a nickel for every time...

 

Amaysngrace had advice to basically just deal with the guy on your own and that is how things are dealt with around the Jersey Shore area. Finding an HR department is like trying to find a needle in a haystack and if you do find one, they'll roll their eyes, look at you like "grow up already" but take down the info because they have to.

 

HtotheN, I almost want to agree with some Jersey Shore advice though. This ain't your grandpa, this is like the anti-grandpa you're dealing with and he should be treated like the disgusting little creature he is.

 

I can't say what is best for you to do. On one hand, this guy should be dealing with real consequences for sexual harassment but on the other hand, I never told a boss or even a co-worker about one of these old perverts myself because they are dirty old men and I treated them how I treat all dirty old men - like trash. They don't deserve better.

 

You're probably going to bump into quite a few more of these guys for the rest of your career.

 

But, for me personally (not sure if this helps at all but just in case), if some old perverted little geezer came up to me and said "don't eat too much because I don't like fat women", I'd throw my hands up in the air, look and him and say "I couldn't give a ****, you old pervert" and after a couple too many times of this, the geezer gets tired of not getting the responses he wants and, although I hate to say this, finds someone else to bother.

 

I've never had to talk to anybody, HR, boss or anyone about these annoying guys who are finding way too much free time on their hands at work and get bored and harass women. They are so disgusting, aren't they? I don't think they even realize themselves how disgusting they are.

 

I live up north, not down south so, as far as I can tell, things are just different and up here? You're expected as a grown woman to deal with men on your own at work (unless there's an assault or something serious) and possibly even looked at as immature if you can't handle some dirty old man by yourself.

 

I don't know if any of this helps you but maybe it can somehow. I hope so!