Are women lousy negotiators?

[Succession]

A (35 year old single, professional) woman and I got into a discussion about why men earn more than women. She acknowledged that she didn't experience pervasive discrimination, but she did feel that she didn't negotiate her salary and promotion schedule as aggressively as some of her male colleagues. She also opined that women, on the whole, are worse negotiators than men.

 

Is this true? Google brings up several articles that suggest men are better negotiators, and considerably fewer articles that suggest the exact opposite.

 

If it is true, does it follow that men deserve to earn more because they have a skill that allows them to be more competitive in the workplace? This is a large leap, in my opinion, but still interesting to discuss.

[HokeyReligions]

I'm a very good negotiator. In my current job I received considerably more than the third offer they made and renegotiated a raise 4 months later when I took on additional responsibilities. And if you are buying a car you want me there. But you can't be shy and you gotta be willing to walk away.

 

But I can see where there are differences. Women are nurturers moreso than men and less confrontational. However that is changing

[pink_sugar]

I recently heard about this from my dad as well. I think it is definitely a factor. A lot of women don't assert themselves enough as far as pay negotiation. However, my brother also has this issue, so it's not only women. It could be the lack of assertion or confidence happens more in women than in men, but I think there is still gender inequality to some extent. Thankfully, I have not experienced it.

[Taramere]

I'm fine about negotiating for other people, but not good at negotiating for myself. I've never quite been able to shake off the feeling that it's wrong to ask people for money. When I was 16 I had a holiday job with Boots. After about 4 weeks the HR woman was waiting for me at the door when I left. She handed me an envelope stuffed with cash and said "I've never known anybody not want their pay before. Why haven't you been picking your wages up?" I explained that I was too embarrassed. She told me to get over that, since she wasn't prepared to hang around the entrance every Friday waiting to hand me my pay.

 

That was minimum wage of about £1.50 per hour at the time, and I still felt like a greedy pig for claiming it. Soon after some neighbours of my parents asked me to babysit. "How much should we pay you?" they asked. I was mortified. "Just whatever you think." They were American, and were amused by my reluctance to admit that I was babysitting in return for hard cash. "You need to learn to negotiate" they told me, paying me double the minimum wage for spending the evening being lectured about various subjects by their 12 year old prodigy of a son.

 

Before you knew it, I had a network of wealthy foreign families wanting me to babysit their kid. I was earning more than a lot of adults...with these people practically grabbing my paw to put double the minimum wage in it. I think when it comes to babysitting, people probably feel happier leaving their kids in the care of somebody who isn't particularly cut throat about how much they want to be paid. However, when negotiating is what you're doing for a living you have to learn to do it.

 

So nowadays I'm very up front about wanting a cash deposit for the work I'm going to do, but I don't particularly enjoy that part of the job, and when clients talk about how broke they are I absolutely hate it. I usually end up reducing the fee by a fair bit. I think you do have to be pretty cut throat to be a strong negotiator, and to not worry about things like how somebody's going to feed their kids or pay their mortgage if they have to pay me the going rate.

 

I would be hopeless trying to negotiate a salary for myself within a large industry, but honestly in the experience I've had of working for bigger companies they're pretty generous anyway. I don't really care too much about what other people have negotiated for themselves, so long as I'm getting paid an amount that I think is fair for the work I'm doing.

Edited August 9, 2013 by Taramere

[RedRobin]

I believe this is a carry over from times when women counted themselves lucky to be considered for the position at all.

 

Smart people only negotiate when they are confident in their skills and believe they can do as good or better elsewhere.

 

This has not been the case for many women until fairly recently. As such, we are starting to see women driving harder bargains than they have in the past. It is only a coincidence that it is gender based. You wouldn't see male sharecroppers or day laborers bargaining for pay... and that was how many women were treated for generations. 100% disposable on the job.

 

Things are different now... I myself recommend to any woman to push for at least 10% more pay than the first offer... or the high end of the range they are qualified for. If they can't offer money, then at least attempt to bargain for other goodies... benefits, time off, etc.

 

However, as Taramere suggested, you need to be aware of your target industry. Some industries and lines of work it is expected to bargain. Others... not so much.

[marriedman321]

Most women choose a job based on what they like, not money..

 

Women would negotiate better if it was a job they hated, but now do not feel they need as they feel lucky to have found a job they like.

 

Men choose a job based on money, even if they hate it.. So they are more like "You want me to do X for only that amount? No thanks"

[Star Gazer]

I have a very difficult time negotiating for myself. I don't "negotiate." I think this is because I'm uncomfortable with putting myself in a defensive position. I'm either willing to accept what they offer, or they're willing to accept my offer, or there's no agreement.

 

For others, such as clients (private practice) or on my cases, or even for friends in their business dealings, I'm tough as nails and probably the best negotiator in my office.

 

And this all goes for both professional, personal and romantic negotiation.

[johan]

The more you are driven to please people and try to be a peacemaker, the less likely you are to be a good negotiator. You'll take more burden onto yourself just to make sure no one else is too bothered. While this is stereotypically a more feminine way to be, I don't think the stereotype lines up very well with reality. There are plenty of men who just don't want to upset anyone, and there are plenty of women who couldn't care less whose toes they step on on their way to getting what they want.

[carhill]

I've generally found women to be effective communicators and, if negotiation is finding a compromise which speaks to all parties needs/wants and with which those parties can walk away satisfied, then I've met few personally who are lousy negotiators. Some who are close friends have impressed me as much with their assertiveness as with their sensitivity and knowing when and where to let it go. It's unsurprising that they've been very successful in their careers, often in male-dominated fields.

 

I'll be visiting one this coming week who, while in the same business, made her mark on the business side, with her more compliant husband of many years making his on the artistic side, both in the rough and tumble world of the NYC advertising biz. As a team, they balance out well. She taught me a lot about win-win negotiating style and how to read the flow. Smart lady.

[tbf]

Premised on the assumption that "good negotiator" equates to better salaries, women are worse negotiators.

 

If you consider the concept of feminine energy as defined by the traditional gender binary model, it's submissive, passive and modest energy.

 

When superimposed onto the work place, women:

• Low ball their worth or are afraid to openly state their believed worth since they don't want to be perceived as immodest or direct (masculine energy symbols).
  
• Don't want to be perceived as ball busters (this term is a shaming device).
  
• Can be risk averse so better the bird in hand.
  

 

Another reason that might be outside the gender binary or not, is that women don't do sufficient market research to evaluate their worth in real terms.

 

All the above is a dynamic between employer and employee where some women break out of the mold, don't care about appearing "feminine" and aren't risk averse.

 

Meandering around with thought, one wonders what component estrogen and testosterone play in the gender binary roles where the roles are like rigid parody boxes of the naturally manifesting behaviours triggered by sex hormones.

 

Does this mean that women who do break out and aren't risk averse sufficient to negotiate fair market value wages, have higher than average levels of testosterone?

[PlumPrincess]

I tend to believe that women are selling themselves below their worth, the question is, what are the reason for it? I think the following I read a couple of years ago on LS: One reason are the different values with which men and women are raised. A lot of boys grow up believing that their value as a person is reflected through their career. The more money they make, the more successful they are, the more value they have and the more success they will have with women (women date up, they don't want to date down). Women, on the other hand, are not conditioned in the same way. A woman who fails at being a successul business woman can still opt to be a housewife, invest her energy in a happy relationship and family, a man usually doesn't see that as an option.

 

And I also think, if you go to different countries you will see something else. A lot of Chinese and Thai women seem to be pretty shrewd business women. I also think, if your daily living depended on your negotiation skills, you would overcome whatever shyness you have. A farmer's wife probably wouldn't be very shy to ask for a decent payment.

[marriedman321]

I tend to believe that women are selling themselves below their worth, the question is, what are the reason for it? I think the following I read a couple of years ago on LS: One reason are the different values with which men and women are raised. A lot of boys grow up believing that their value as a person is reflected through their career. The more money they make, the more successful they are, the more value they have and the more success they will have with women (women date up, they don't want to date down). Women, on the other hand, are not conditioned in the same way. A woman who fails at being a successul business woman can still opt to be a housewife, invest her energy in a happy relationship and family, a man usually doesn't see that as an option.

 

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I agree. I could use my wife as an example.. She landed a job 2 minutes from home that she enjoys. She is probably underpaid.

 

However, I am the breadwinner, and her extra money is simply for spending on extras. Sure, she could search for higher paying jobs, negotiate etc, but she is happy with her job..

 

Millions of working women are in the same boat. They are more interested in how much they like the job than chasing a job with higher pay, or ruffling feathers at the current one.

 

Her co workers who earn the same amount are mainly trust fund kids who live in million dollar homes. It seems they are working more for the enjoyment and to get out of the house rather than for the need of the money.

[nomadic_butterfly]

This is generally very very very true. I know with my first proper job, it was at the peak of the recession and I had sent out 300 applications so even though they told me the range and offered me the lowest, I gladly accepted for fear I wouldn't get it and I was foolish. When I started working there, I realized how desperate they were, and I did have 9 months of previous experience so could have easily negotiated half way up the range.

 

Fast forward a year later when I was leaving for grad school;I gave my friend my job essentially and he got a higher salary than I. The job also didn't give me any kind of compensation as they would have had go through an agency again. Cheap bstards! Can you imagine? I trained him a week before I left and NOTHING.

[johan]

.. my wife as an example.. .. She is probably underpaid.

 

Millions of working women are in the same boat....

 

It's no myth that there is a wage differential between the genders.

[mario_C]

Sheryl Sandberg's book was largely about this scenario, that men have excelled because we tend to negotiate more readily, market our successes more, and have more self-esteem. "Lean In" is about teaching and encouraging women to follow that model for more success in life.

 

By her standards, I must be a woman. But it's important and engaging reading.

[Shepp]

See at first I thought, I don't really buy that, but than I thought about it some more and i think in the majority of cases there probably is some truth to it, but its nature and nurture isnt it, my gf is scarily good at negotiating - she knows how to get what she wants.

I think Im a pretty good negotiator but I also think I'm very fair - I wouldn't take less than I deserve but I'd never take more either. I think like I was brought up in a family who fought over who got to pay the tab, my mum would give away her last penny, I was raised to be generous with money...like i'll buy the first round, I'll tip really well - I'll sure never be rich...but for me money isn't success...I'd rather have a high rank in my work than a position of less authority that carried a high pay check.

I think for my gf money's always been so much more Important - she was like 13 when she had to start worrying about making her own money to feed herself with.

 

I guess in a lot of married couples the guys the breadwinner and hence the wife doesn't need to worry about money as much and hence doesn't need to negotiate so hard!

And if we learn by watching our parents then surely kids growing up in that kind of household learn that it's a guys job to negotiate!

 

But I do think it's more life experiences than genetics