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Are work promotion or raise a right or a privilege?


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RecordProducer

Just to give you the context: I am working on a hypothetical case in which a female employee complained she had not gotten a raise since day one because she's a woman. She's worked for this internet communications company for five months as a programmer and was late to work three times - the last time she was fired.

 

Can a company promote/give raises as it sees fit? E.g. if I have five employees and one for them is really productive, smart and professional, can I promote them and give them a high raise, but keep others at the same position and salary for years because they are mediocre?

 

I know I can check the law on this, but I am more interested in people's personal experiences and the silently established business-community practices. I understand that promotions and raises are expected, but this is to preserve the talented employees. What if I don't care about keeping them? Like fast-food restaurants, for example. They pay peanuts because when you get sick of working hard for $800 a month, they'll easily replace you with someone else - it'll take them a few hours to train them.

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Just to give you the context: I am working on a hypothetical case in which a female employee complained she had not gotten a raise since day one because she's a woman. She's worked for this internet communications company for five months as a programmer and was late to work three times - the last time she was fired.

Excessive tardiness can be grounds for termination. She probably got a verbal warning, written warning with a performance plan or written warning, then dismissed.

 

Can a company promote/give raises as it sees fit? E.g. if I have five employees and one for them is really productive, smart and professional, can I promote them and give them a high raise, but keep others at the same position and salary for years because they are mediocre?

Yes, the consulting world is such. Just because you do what the job requires and another person does the same thing with business development; the person with business development will get the promotion. Anyone can do the work but not everyone has the packaged skills (connections, education, luck, soft skills, etc..) to grow the business.

 

I know I can check the law on this, but I am more interested in people's personal experiences and the silently established business-community practices. I understand that promotions and raises are expected, but this is to preserve the talented employees. What if I don't care about keeping them? Like fast-food restaurants, for example. They pay peanuts because when you get sick of working hard for $800 a month, they'll easily replace you with someone else - it'll take them a few hours to train them.
It is not hard to flip a burger, it is harder to buy the meat, ground the meat, season, shape, and then cook the burger.
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I think it should be a "right" if you do your job well, and a "priviledge" to recieve a raise if you do your job well. It's actually in the best interest of the company, no matter how small or large, to reward hard workers- the people that go beyond and above the call of duty. Companies that don't reward hard workers will lose good employees, whereas companies that don't reward mediocre employees, have nothing much to lose.

 

If you're a slacker and don't produce results, or are just content to coast doing the minimum required in your job description- you're entitled to nothing but a cost of living raise which may be a requirement of the law in certain jurisdictions.

Edited by D-Lish
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RecordProducer
Excessive tardiness can be grounds for termination. She probably got a verbal warning, written warning with a performance plan or written warning, then dismissed.
This is a hypo, so the case doesn't really exists, although similar cases may exist. She received a written warning which she signed saying "one hour late, second offense, next time will be terminated."

 

A week later, she tells her boss she feels she hasn't gotten a raise b/c she's a woman, so she's discriminated against. A week after the complaint (2 weeks after the last tardiness), she is late again - and the boss fires her ass. She brings a retaliatory discharge claim and the issue is basically whether the tardiness is a pretext for the termination and the real reason is retaliation because she complained of discrimination.

 

Any thoughts?

 

I think it should be a "right" if you do your job well, and a "priviledge" to recieve a raise if you do your job well.

But if it's a "right," then the employee can go ahead and shout "I am entitled to a raise and I didn't get one, I will sue you and you can't fire me for excercising my rights."

 

There's a law that says you can't discriminate, so if you give raises to white people only, you'll get sued. But if all your workers are of the same race, gender, religion, age and you give raises to the ones who kiss your ass, it's not discrimination against some protected (by law) group.

Edited by RecordProducer
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Can a company promote/give raises as it sees fit?

 

Yes. Not even a government can intervene in this process, unless it has shares in the company.

 

E.g. if I have five employees and one for them is really productive, smart and professional, can I promote them and give them a high raise, but keep others at the same position and salary for years because they are mediocre?

 

Yes. One way is to have employees sign contracts where they accept that they'll be promoted and get raises based on performance/results.

 

What if I don't care about keeping them?

 

That depends on their contracts under which you hired them. Such contracts are legally binding, so you'll have to look at the terms and conditions listed in the contract under which you hired a particular employee. In medium to large companies different employees tend to have different contracts. Why? Because some positions need to be filled at all times and others don't. If business slows down, then certain positions will be redundant and it then makes sense to give such employees contracts that allows a superior to end their position in the case business slows down.

Edited by Nexus One
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Feelin Frisky

A raise in pay is not a right. I could be however if the written terms of employment promise a raise. Even if it's customary to give raises periodically, it's not a right. A person who works for a salary is usually given cyclical performance evaluations in which their work and their value to the company is formally considered. A "raise" is both a reward for good performance and an incentive to continue working there, although no further raise is automatically a "right".

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If it was a right to have raises and promotions than everybody would be the CEO. It's just nonsense. What kind of employee makes such a complaint when they have a poor record re timekeeping as well.

 

Other questions in such a scenario would be did her colleagues get raises etc? Did any of them have some form of disciplinary action against them (like her)? Were any of them women or were they all men? Was she still on her probationary period?

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If someone's contract promises a raise, then they have to receive it. For example, some professions (e.g. medicine, teaching) put employees on a pay grade, and they go up one pay grade every year, so they get slightly more money. But if someone wasn't promised a raise, they have no right to demand one.

 

Usually what would happen is that if someone is a good employee, the company will give them a raise in order to retain them and show that they're valued. If the employee doesn't receive a raise, after a few years they'll probably realize that their career isn't progressing and will look for a better job elsewhere. So a company needs to offer regular promotion and career progression to retain its best employees. If an employee's career doesn't progress, they can't demand a raise, but they're free to vote with their feet and look for a better paid job elsewhere.

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She received a written warning which she signed saying "one hour late, second offense, next time will be terminated." A week later, she tells her boss she feels she hasn't gotten a raise b/c she's a woman, so she's discriminated against. A week after the complaint (2 weeks after the last tardiness), she is late again - and the boss fires her ass.

 

The boss followed through on the threat of termination which was made before the employee mentioned that she felt discriminated against. She was told that she'd be fired the next time she was late, and that's exactly what happened. So I don't think she can claim unfair dismissal - she was given adequate warning that lateness would result in termination, and she still persisted in being late, so she effectively caused herself to be fired due to her own actions.

 

The threat was made first, a whole week before discrimination was mentioned - so how could the threat be retaliation to something which hadn't even happened yet?! In fact, you could probably argue that the employee claimed discrimination in retaliation to being told off for being late!

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I am working on a hypothetical case in which a female employee complained she had not gotten a raise since day one because she's a woman.
If there were documents showing that no woman had ever received a raise/promotion at that company and that the company did give raises/promotion, then she *might* have a case for discrimination by gender. As an example, if the programming staff was mixed male and female and it could be shown that males were given preferential treatment.

 

She's worked for this internet communications company for five months as a programmer and was late to work three times - the last time she was fired.
If the instances were documented and the law/employment contract allowed dismissal as a legal and conforming remedy, then her claim of any protected class status could easily be challenged.

 

If she were clever, she might get more traction out of an action which utilizes current or prospective aspects of 'Healthy Workplace' bills which are currently being considered and/or enacted. The trick is to catch the employer off-guard where they haven't gotten proper legal advice on some new aspect of relations and turn that into a settlement cow.

 

Anyway, unless contractually guaranteed (in our case, generally through CBA), promotions and raises, in my industry at least, occur at the will and whim of the employer/supervisor/boss, etc.

 

What amazes me, in this tight job market, how many (real, not hypothetical) employees continue to risk dismissal by blatant displays of poor behavior, like tardiness. I mean, how hard is it to show up to work on time? Boy, have times changed.

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SO long as the business is following the federal regulations which clearly state that pay be given for time worked, then no its not a right to receive pay raise.

 

My establishment has made it cleared that we are not guaranteed a cost of living raise no matter how much profit is brought in for that quarter. We do not get pay raises for anything unless the govt changes the minimum pay and they have to abide by it.

 

The concept that I have witnessed though in business for getting raises is simple...its who you know not how much you know. Our business runs on the

premise that if you do more you get paid less....they have more chiefs then indians so us indians are pummelled with more task at a lower scale.

 

The hypothetical scenario makes it clear the employee was given written warning. Management did its duty, if she couldn't pick up the pace and improve on time management then they are at liberty to dismiss her. Based on her tardiness.

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RecordProducer
I think 5 months is way too early to have any expectation of a raise and she's looking for a quick buck.
I know. Well, this is not a real case, but I too thought the same thing. In the hypo some other guy received a$15,000 raise in one year (from $45K to $60K). I thought that was weird.

 

In the OP's hypothetical case, it would be interesting to see her general employee record/performance.
Let me clarify, the case doesn't really exist, it's a law school hypo, so I don't know what her performance would be. We assume it was fine, because the company claims they fired her only because she was late 3 times.
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RecordProducer
The boss followed through on the threat of termination which was made before the employee mentioned that she felt discriminated against. She was told that she'd be fired the next time she was late, and that's exactly what happened. So I don't think she can claim unfair dismissal - she was given adequate warning that lateness would result in termination, and she still persisted in being late, so she effectively caused herself to be fired due to her own actions.

 

The threat was made first, a whole week before discrimination was mentioned - so how could the threat be retaliation to something which hadn't even happened yet?! In fact, you could probably argue that the employee claimed discrimination in retaliation to being told off for being late!

Eeyore,if you're not a lawyer, you SHOULD be one! You made great arguments! :bunny::)

 

If there were documents showing that no woman had ever received a raise/promotion at that company and that the company did give raises/promotion, then she *might* have a case for discrimination by gender. As an example, if the programming staff was mixed male and female and it could be shown that males were given preferential treatment.
There's a document that shows 4 male programmers got raises, but ranging from $3,000-15,000 and one female who didn't buy she only worked less than 4 months. So,there's some smoke about gender discrimination. Great observation! :)
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RecordProducer
Your points make no sense.
I wasn't making any point. I posed a question. :D

 

Underperforming employees don't deserve raises/promotions. If it were a right, they'd have no incentive to perform.
Well, I could argue the opposite: if it were a right, then the employer could fire the employee when raise is due (unless it were forbidden to fire people) - that would motivate people to work even harder, if their job were at stake. Discrimination exists not because employers hate women or non-caucasion people, but because these people are willing to work for less money, for various reasons.

 

I mean, how hard is it to show up to work on time?

It's not too hard... but it's easier to be late! :laugh:
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There's a document that shows 4 male programmers got raises, but ranging from $3,000-15,000 and one female who didn't buy she only worked less than 4 months. So,there's some smoke about gender discrimination. Great observation!

 

If the total compliment of programmers is four and three of the four received raises and those three were male, yeah, I'd agree that it would be a signpost to dig a little deeper. The mitigating factor could be the female's attendance record, but the male's attendance records are unknown (to me) and should be compared if an action is brought to show a pattern of discrimination. If more employees, adjust accordingly by percentage and record.

 

I still think a 'healthy workplace' action could have traction, though that doesn't directly address your hypothetical. I can say that I've seen enough of these settle to the former employee's advantage to view them as a viable action to pursue or to prepare a defense against. Granted, this is California, so a different jurisdiction. Our resident labor lawyer could comment with more authority.

 

It's not too hard... but it's easier to be late!

 

Yeah, especially if one blames it on the train ;)

 

Good luck with your project....

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RecordProducer
Yeah, especially if one blames it on the train ;)
It's not that I am late, it's that the train is early! ;):laugh:

 

Good luck with your project....

Thanks. I don't have more info than what I told you.

lol.... your thought experiment is more like a brainfart. Read a book on employment law/industrial relations, instead of posting nonsense on this forum. Forbidden to fire people? lol....
It always amazes me how the most limited people who can't even express themselves like adults, let alone understand abstract concepts, will vehemently impose their attitudes on others. :D
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Because this is a law school hypo, something I'm assuming you'll ultimately be graded upon, I STRONGLY URGE YOU not to use LS to help you flush out your answer.

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RecordProducer
Because this is a law school hypo, something I'm assuming you'll ultimately be graded upon, I STRONGLY URGE YOU not to use LS to help you flush out your answer.
No, no grading, this is for a credit/no credit class. We use hypos to discuss issues, from ethical to social policy, etc. Thanks for your concern, though. I appreciate it. :)
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RecordProducer
oh, i understand. i understand your points to be nonsense, based on studies of HRM and Industrial Relations. You're posting items concerning this hypothetical scenario, which most HR professionals and employment lawyers would see as mundane and commonplace. Reading abstract cases of employees with entitlement complexes is comical though. Moreover, you asked for opinions, I simply gave mine.

 

Yanstanton...You're Yum.

 

(with a D). :laugh:

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Bittersweetie

Okay, here's my actual experiences with raises/promotions/firings.

 

I once worked at an internet company. When I was hired, they told me if I worked out after three months I would get a $3000 raise. I worked hard and got the raise. I got a great year review from my manager, I got along well with my team, and my clients said good things about me. I worked in the office, and never handed in a project late, actually I was always early. Eighteen months after I started, a new manager was hired above my current one, and within a month of that I was fired because I "did not meet the standards of the company." She then hired one of her friends. I had no recourse, being in an at-work state, despite my good reviews and positive feedback.

 

I once worked part-time at a private school. I really liked that job, took good care of the kids, communicated with the parents, was always on time, got along with my manager and the team. In our contracts were guarantee percentage raises every year if we renewed the contract for the following school year. I worked there for six years, the last couple stepping in as manager of the team when my manager was out. I did not get any additional compensation for this; it didn't matter to me, I just liked helping out. Every year I had good reviews from my manager and peers. When my manager's role changed, they needed someone to assistant manage the team. They (not my manager, higher than her) chose someone who had only been at the school a year, with no college degree, and had zero management experience. The reason? Because "it was a snap decision and they didn't have time to call to see if I would be interested before the decision was made." It created an awkward situation where everyone on the team, and the parents at the school even, were asking why I wasn't in that position.

 

Currently I'm temping at a company. I originally was brought on to do admin support, but the team quickly restructured and I gained more high-level responsibilities, because of my experience. I worked really hard to streamline my duties and build communication with my managers and peers. I had two managers in particular who saw things in different ways and I was able to come up with a solution to get things done that they were both happy with. I worked really hard, was praised and told over and over I would soon be hired. Now, almost a year later after yet another restructure, my high level responsibilities were given to people (temps also) who send out company-wide notices with misspellings and errors while I am answering a phone and making dubs. Now, I am a temp so I really have no say in my duties, but it's been a hit on my morale to be trusted with important duties then have them all taken away.

 

So, the idea of rewarding employees who work hard, it sounds good in theory but in practice, in my experience, it doesn't matter. It's making me question a lot about the workplace lately.

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RecordProducer

Bittersweetie, thanks for all the information you provided. It's sounds like you haven't had much luck with bosses in you career. It was certainly eye-opening to read your story. Many peope though have bad experiences which compel them to change their workplace, start their own businesses, or even change their careers. It seems like getting along really well with the management is a number one factor in advancement. If you're not super-friends (professionally, personally or both) with your bosses, you're probably wasting your time at that particular position, right?

 

Maybe it pays to be assertive about promotion. Did you ever apply for the hire position, the one from your second paragraph? I noticed you said it was not yourdirect manager, but someone above her who hired the person with no experience. Any particular reason for that decision? You know, when things are weird, something is going on. I have almost no work experience in the US, but I've noticed that in all countries and in all spheres of life (work, marriage, friendship...) the most valuable thing is to know the rules of the game inside out. To know what exactly it takes to get hired, promoted, demoted, made partner, or fired.

 

Regrading the manager from your first paragraph, the one that fired you because you "didn't meet the standards," and then went on and hired one of her friends... could this have been taken to a higher level? Did she have anyone above her? Just because you were hired on an at-will basis, doesn't mean you weren't wrongfully terminated. Employment discrimination still applies - if any. Also, if she fired a good worker (you) and hired her friend for that position, she is using the company for her personal intersts - which I am sure the guys above her wouldn't like.

 

Some people have power trip issues and they exercise those trips on others when they get to a position that enables them to do whatever they want. These people are bad apples, not just for those who work for them, but also for the business itself, because if the employees can't be motivated, the company loses in productivity and quality. And these things happen all the time because these power trippers will abuse their subordinates but kiss their superiors' asses - plus they take credit for other people's work. Additionally, many people don't understand that their organizations can't function well if employees are completely dissatisfied with the management. In fact, statistics show that the most prevalent reason for people seeking new jobs is frustration with the bosses at their current positions.

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Bittersweetie

Record, in reality, I have always got along quite well with my direct managers. I feel I've been fortunate in that regard, in terms of keeping in touch after not working together. To clarify based on your questions:

 

The job where I was fired for "not meeting standards." The funny thing is I was so excited to work for this new manager, I even asked her if she would mentor me to become a better designer, and she said yes. This was days before she fired me. When this firing happened, I was only 24 years old, so I wasn't well equipped to deal with it. I was just in shock as I was escorted out of the building by security. Now, I would say, on what basis? I would ask, what parts of my work exactly do not meet these standards? And I would've definitely contacted someone once I found out she hired a friend. But like I said, I was very young and didn't know better. I clearly remember sitting in her office with the HR lady and the HR lady asking me with a surprised tone, "You had no idea this was coming?" And I was like, no.

 

My husband worked at this company also and said that not long after my experience HR provided specific guidelines in terminating an employee, like probation periods, which is good. She could've given me a month to find another position within the company. Or even waited a month to terminate me as part of a large layoff where my severance package would've been tripled. So I like to think that maybe my experience did help change things a little for others.

 

The second job where they promoted the other guy, it being a school, this happened in the late summer and I had no idea that my manager's job had changed and that this other guy had gotten hired until I showed up for work just before the school year started. My manager, who I was very good friends with, actually told me that she wished that she had specifically recommended me for the position, but she thought it was so obvious a choice she didn't say anything. So in reality there was nothing I could've done because I had no idea things were changing. However, I did go to the manager who made the decision, with talking points and everything (I learned my lesson from the above situation) and watched as she deflected and dodged answering me...it was actually quite funny. And whenever a parent asked me why I wasn't in the management position, I referred them to her.

 

Like I said, I've been lucky that my direct managers have been great and I've gotten along with them. But even that doesn't mean anything. I like my current manager very much, he's great, and I work hard because I want to support him as best I can. But I now no longer expect to get hired or anything. It's sad that I've reached a point where I don't really care about the company...especially since when I started I loved this place.

 

Sorry for the long messages! I guess I have a lot to say on this subject. :)

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RecordProducer

Like I said, I've been lucky that my direct managers have been great and I've gotten along with them. But even that doesn't mean anything. I like my current manager very much, he's great, and I work hard because I want to support him as best I can.

History is repeating itself.

 

But I now no longer expect to get hired or anything. It's sad that I've reached a point where I don't really care about the company...especially since when I started I loved this place.

Maybe you need to be more assertive. I am not an expert on the subject and I don't know you or the people you mentioned, but something has become a pattern and only YOU can break that pattern. Maybe you are in the wrong places with the wrong people, and maybe these people believe you're not management material.

 

Often, way to often, people will walk all over the ones who allow it! ;)

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