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Considering another job change...


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...but this one would be huge.

 

As many of you know, I'm an attorney. (For some of you, that may come as a surprise! :D) I presently work in the private sector at a small firm. By way of background, I started at a well known boutique firm in Los Angeles that had "big firm" expectations (i.e., huge billable hour requirement, lots of red tape, lots of separation between associates and partners, and otherwise very high pressure/low quality of life). From there, I moved on to a small firm, where the atmosphere suited me much better - much more of a team dynamic as opposed to the dog-eat-dog culture of a bigger firm, but the pay was less. As a young associate, I chose to give up some stuff ($$) to have better stuff (quality of life).

 

After a while, I moved back home to Northern California where I joined two men who had broken off from one of the largest firms in the country to start their own. They wanted to be "masters of their destiny," and claimed to want to avoid the big-firm lifestyle, including all the bad stuff I described above. They wanted a collaborative team environment. They wanted to help me grow professionally. While it was a risk to join a small, startup firm, I had faith in these two men, and felt like we'd be a good fit.

 

Almost two years later at this new firm, I feel like I'm right back at my first firm. This new firm has grown exponentially, and without going into details, all of the bad-traits of a big firm now exist here: the ridiculously long hours, the separation between associates and partners, the pressure, all of it. To make matters worse, I've been in practice for five years now. While I find my area of law fascinating and challenging, I don't feel like I'm contributing anything to the community in which I live....and that's the very reason why I went to law school to begin with.

 

When I started law school, I had dreams of doing something HUGE with my degree. I envisioned myself standing on the steps of the Supreme Court waving some folder around, zealously advocating for the rights of the oppressed.... Hilariously optimistic of me. In the middle of law school, I thought I'd be a District Attorney, punishing the worst of the worst. Still, doing something for the community. But somehow I wound up where I am now: billing insurance companies to defend themselves and the men who sexually harass females in the workplace.

 

I'm not saying I'm unhappy, but I just feel...blah. Blah blah blah. Then again, there are moments where I am VERY unhappy - like this entire weekend, which I've spent 80% of the time working on a file that was assigned to me on Friday night for a Monday morning hearing. Very short notice, taking my life over... A regular occurrence that wouldn't happen if I worked for the county or a large, well-organized firm.

 

Okay, so what's my point?

 

I want to move on to a position with the government as a civil attorney (Attorney General's Office, County Counsel, City Attorney, something like that), or start over completely as a DA. Both would involve a pay cut, but one I could still live with. Both would allow me to serve my community while doing what I love. Both would allow me to avoid working on weekends (absent a pending trial) and long nights (my friends who have gov't legal jobs are considered gods if they work past 6 p.m., and I usually work until 8 p.m. on most nights), and would provide me a ton of benefits that I just don't get now at my present firm. For example, despite the fact $$$ is rolling in, my current bosses are holding on to it like crazy...we don't even have a 401k plan or anything like that, which I find surprising for a law firm, and I had to BEG for adequate health insurance.

 

On the other hand, I could also leave my current firm and actually go work for a truly large firm with the same office dynamic (if not better, because other professional benefits would be included) and get paid about $30-50K more, plus bonuses That's right. That's a lot of money. But it would come with the same disadvantages. That said, if it's the same gig, why not move on...right? Or am I having a grass-is-greener moment?

 

I'm not sure what advice I'm really looking for, or if I'm just processing my thoughts. I'm just so very, very tired at the end of every day, and I feel like it's all for nothing. If I'm going to have to spend a substantial amount of time away from my loved ones and not doing the things I love as I have over the past year, I feel as though it should be worth it - either monetarily, or from some inner self-satisfaction.

 

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

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I know how you feel. I would suggest maybe joining a cause that you have a passion in and join their legal department. If you're changing the world from there you probably won't care if you're taking a smaller pay cut when you are passionate in the cause.

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I actually just looked at the pay scales for the county and city gigs, and they actually pay MORE. Not much more, but still more. My only concerns are that of loyalty and my resume looking like I jump from job to job.

 

I thought about joining a cause, but most of those wouldn't pay me enough to even pay my student loans, let alone my rent and other bills. :( In addition, I think I'd get bored with one cause/type of law...

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SG...

 

I really don't know what advice I could give you.. Since I'm not in Law, but I have been there with the long hours and hard work...

 

Thruout my 20's and early 30's I worked in upwards to 20 hours per day and sometimes longer..

 

I did get tired of doing that and made a choice to give up those hours..

I didn't have any real downside to it like you would as I owned the company and still do and it had no effect on the $.. it only made my life more manageable.

I did give them up.. today I only work at worst 50-55 hours in a week..

 

I do think that you have to be able to look at your job and smile.. You have to be able to get up in the morning and not dread going to work.. you have to be able to leave and wish you worked longer even though you didn't..

You have to want to come back tomorrow with that same smile you had in the morning..

 

You have to be happy..

 

I have been doing what I do for almost 30 years and there has yet to be a day that has gone by that I wished I was somewhere else or doing something else..

So.. to sum it up..

The advice I would give you is to make the move that would make you love going to work each and every day.. the $ will follow one day..

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I think people should do what their passionate about so if this is what you want then go for it.

 

I'm going back to school for my doctorate so I can do what I love even more. I have dreams myself and want to persue them.

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The way I see it, it's time to leave. The only question is which way you want to jump.

 

I agree that you should get paid what you're worth at a large firm if you're going to put in those kinds of hours in that kind of environment, and have to live that lifestyle anyway. AND, you should also be getting the benefits - especially the 401(k)! I also understand how that kind of job can suck the life out of you.

 

I don't know what to advise on the government job. Will it be challenging enough for you?

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I actually just looked at the pay scales for the county and city gigs, and they actually pay MORE. Not much more, but still more. My only concerns are that of loyalty and my resume looking like I jump from job to job.

 

I thought about joining a cause, but most of those wouldn't pay me enough to even pay my student loans, let alone my rent and other bills. :( In addition, I think I'd get bored with one cause/type of law...

 

I know the $$$ feel, I almost quit my job.

 

The money issue, I've seen people work to pay the loans off then switch gears to something they are more passionate about. This is an option for you. It may kill you inside.

 

Regards to loyalty, that is a big thing in certain businesses. Depending on your level and time there, it maybe time to reconsider your options. Move on to another line i.e corporate litigation to IP Law?

 

Have you considered joining some of your classmates' firms? the same classmates you went to school with. You already know their temperament.

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I think you should do this and get to the point where you're financially secure:

On the other hand, I could also leave my current firm and actually go work for a truly large firm with the same office dynamic (if not better, because other professional benefits would be included) and get paid about $30-50K more, plus bonuses That's right. That's a lot of money. But it would come with the same disadvantages. That said, if it's the same gig, why not move on...right? Or am I having a grass-is-greener moment?

 

So you can do this and get a sense of fulfillment in your life:

I want to move on to a position with the government as a civil attorney (Attorney General's Office, County Counsel, City Attorney, something like that), or start over completely as a DA. Both would involve a pay cut, but one I could still live with. Both would allow me to serve my community while doing what I love.

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I do think that you have to be able to look at your job and smile.. You have to be able to get up in the morning and not dread going to work.. you have to be able to leave and wish you worked longer even though you didn't..

You have to want to come back tomorrow with that same smile you had in the morning..

 

This is really hitting home for me. I don't dread going to work every day, but I don't get excited about going to work unless it's to take a really fun deposition, or argue a heated motion in court. That's what gets me excited. In the government gig, I'd get much more of that responsibility. Where I am now, the only time I get to do it is if the partners are already booked to do something else...they hold on to the fun stuff because, well, it's fun. In a gov't gig, the higher up you get, the more administrative/oversight it is, leaving the baby attorneys (despite 5 years in practice, I'm still a baby! :D) the do all the "fun stuff."

 

I don't know what to advise on the government job. Will it be challenging enough for you?

 

I hate to say this, but not very much challenges me. I succeed at almost any task I take on, and master it quickly. So my focus is much more on what other rewards I can take away from my job... whether it's fun, whether I'm contributing to society, whether it allows me to have a work/life balance, etc. That said, I do believe it would be challenging enough, as there is the ability to move between departments to switch things up on occasion. The County emphasizes this to keep its attorneys motivated and fresh.

 

The money issue, I've seen people work to pay the loans off then switch gears to something they are more passionate about. This is an option for you. It may kill you inside.

 

Regards to loyalty, that is a big thing in certain businesses. Depending on your level and time there, it maybe time to reconsider your options. Move on to another line i.e corporate litigation to IP Law?

 

Have you considered joining some of your classmates' firms? the same classmates you went to school with. You already know their temperament.

 

Given my bills and the pay in this city (regardless of the firm), it's going to take me 15-20 years to pay off my student loans. I can't really use that as a reason to stay/go.

 

Even if I were interested in those areas, corporate litigation and IP law are highly specialized areas of law mainly controlled by very, very high-end firms (that would never offer me a job to begin with! :D) and not really part of the public sector.

 

My classmates are scattered all over the state and at a wide array of firms. Those that are at bigger firms aren't really all that happy - they work even longer hours than I do, and have the added pressures of doing a ton of pro bono work AND bringing in a certain amount of business per year.

 

 

This is going to sound terrible, but it is what it is. I'm approaching 30. I can't help but think I'm gonna want to have a family someday... a REAL work/life balance. I want to be proud of my life - as a wife/mother as well as an attorney. I don't see that happening if I'm at the office at 7 a.m. and leaving at 8 p.m. every night, as well as working at least 12-18 hours every single weekend. That is my life right now, and if I remain in the private sector, I feel like I'm going to burn out, and quick.

 

"They" (whoever they are) say that something like 35% of attorneys "burn out" within 5 years of practice. I'm now at that 5th year, and my wick is about half gone. I don't want to not be a lawyer. I want to continue practicing law. I just need a different environment, a different M.O. of doing it. In all honesty, I really don't care about networking events, and perfectly tailored black suits, and having everyone know my name at a conference in my area of law, and buying a new pair of Manolos, and high end cars, and spending two weeks to decide which cardstock is the most impressive for my business card. All I want is to be able to kick ass in court, let my work speak for itself, and then go home to my family, friends, and dog. Is that bad?

 

Something in my gut tells me that if I want to make this change, I need to make it soon. I'm just a little nervous.

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I think you should do this and get to the point where you're financially secure:

 

So you can do this and get a sense of fulfillment in your life:

 

I've thought about that.

 

I'm financially secure. I'm just not financially where I want to be given how hard I'm working. I also know myself enough to know that if I were to take a job making $50K more (the first year, and then $60-75K more the next year, and on, and on), I would never be able to leave that type of money because I'd get used to having it and rely on it in one way or another.

 

I just really want what I spend the majority of my time doing to MEAN something.

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I've thought about that.

 

I'm financially secure. I'm just not financially where I want to be given how hard I'm working. I also know myself enough to know that if I were to take a job making $50K more (the first year, and then $60-75K more the next year, and on, and on), I would never be able to leave that type of money because I'd get used to having it and rely on it in one way or another.

 

I just really want what I spend the majority of my time doing to MEAN something.

I should have been more specific. Financially secure to me means, "I don't need to work but I do because I enjoy it and it gives me a purpose in life".

 

Imagine yourself financially secure, as defined above. Do you suppose you would put up with all the corporate b/s or would you be tempted to walk and do something more meaningful?

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Given my bills and the pay in this city (regardless of the firm), it's going to take me 15-20 years to pay off my student loans. I can't really use that as a reason to stay/go.

 

Understood; how about asking for a deferment? Some public sector jobs actually assist in student loans forgiveness. Might have to do a search on that.

 

This is going to sound terrible, but it is what it is. I'm approaching 30. I can't help but think I'm gonna want to have a family someday... a REAL work/life balance. I want to be proud of my life - as a wife/mother as well as an attorney. I don't see that happening if I'm at the office at 7 a.m. and leaving at 8 p.m. every night, as well as working at least 12-18 hours every single weekend. That is my life right now, and if I remain in the private sector, I feel like I'm going to burn out, and quick.

 

"They" (whoever they are) say that something like 35% of attorneys "burn out" within 5 years of practice. I'm now at that 5th year, and my wick is about half gone. I don't want to not be a lawyer. I want to continue practicing law. I just need a different environment, a different M.O. of doing it. In all honesty, I really don't care about networking events, and perfectly tailored black suits, and having everyone know my name at a conference in my area of law, and buying a new pair of Manolos, and high end cars, and spending two weeks to decide which cardstock is the most impressive for my business card. All I want is to be able to kick ass in court, let my work speak for itself, and then go home to my family, friends, and dog. Is that bad?

 

Something in my gut tells me that if I want to make this change, I need to make it soon. I'm just a little nervous.

 

Sounds like you are passionate in your profession just not the environment. The backstabling the froth of business card stock (American Psycho anyone?)

 

The system and environment is just cutthroat. If you go home at 6pm to the family, friends and dog; the other person would just stay till 830pm look good and make partner. Then when they are over 40 get a trophy spouse or marry out of convience.

 

I would suggest looking into public sector which might pay part of your student loans.

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The backstabling the froth of business card stock (American Psycho anyone?)

 

OMG, you're so right.

 

Well, I just received an email from one of the partners that was... um... unkind. I will start sending out resumes tomorrow. I cannot take this anymore.

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OMG, you're so right.

 

Well, I just received an email from one of the partners that was... um... unkind. I will start sending out resumes tomorrow. I cannot take this anymore.

 

When you give notice, make sure you are NOT standing on the plastic wrap. ;)

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When you give notice, make sure you are NOT standing on the plastic wrap. ;)

 

Another thing, and I think this speaks volumes.

 

I don't trust either partner NOT to set me up to fail. Instead of providing me (and others) with opportunities where we have the chance to succeed, I feel as though they actually seek out ways to make their associates flounder, if only to demonstrate to themselves and each other how much better they are than their "help."

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All I want is to be able to kick ass in court, let my work speak for itself, and then go home to my family, friends, and dog. Is that bad?

 

 

No that's NOT bad. That's smart as hell. Too bad it took my lawyer husband until he was over 50 to achieve it. He did so at my urging and pushing. How? By moving to an area with less competition and lower real estate rates. He finally started his own practice. He keeps his own hours. He has never done better. A little networking, a good ad in the yellow pages and a LOT of luck and pro bono stuff has really paid off in so far as referralls go.

 

Think about it. You're WAY younger than he is but why not go for it now before you have a family and more responsibilities? Think about it. He told me he wished I had suggested this years before.

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SG I think if you sound very enthusiastic in your objective they will understand why you're dissatisfied at your current firm.

 

Some may even have felt like you feel now. And had wanted to do something more personally rewarding with their time.

 

Do what you love. Love what you do. You only live once.

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RecordProducer

Whatever you choose, it doesn't have to be permanent. Think of your long-term goals and place your next two years in the big picture. Or think of your short-term goals and adhere to them. The government job is probably easier and more rewarding emotionally, but no job is perfect. On the other hand, hating your life because of your job is the worst thing in the world. I am very much experience-oriented. In other words, I like to do the thing that will bring me a long-term benefit, knowledge and mileage. Five years from now, you don't want to be the same lawyer; you want to be more valuable in the market.

 

I would think in terms of specialization, too. The experience of a DA is great for criminal law. Have you thought about other government jobs? The White House? :D How about replace Arnold? :laugh:

 

separation between associates and partners,
What does this mean?
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What does this mean?

 

It means there's an "us" (associates) and a "them" (the partners/owners of the firm) mentality. It's not a team-like environment. Instead, it's more of a master-servant dynamic.

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What is the $401k thing?

 

SG I know EXACTLY how you feel. I can't imagine how I going to cope doing the same thing for another 30years until I retire. But I am too scared to change careers because the money is quite good.

 

I'm financially secure. I'm just not financially where I want to be given how hard I'm working. I also know myself enough to know that if I were to take a job making $50K more (the first year, and then $60-75K more the next year, and on, and on), I would never be able to leave that type of money because I'd get used to having it and rely on it in one way or another.

 

Me too. Absolutely, and I AM working for the government. I am not that highly paid given my profession. And what grates is alot of highly paid private dentists ALSO have good work-life balances.

I feel sometimes that even though I am providing a service for those that need it most, many of them are thankless, rude, demanding and difficult.

 

Having said that- i don't commute, i walk to work, and I start at nine, and get out at five on the dot most days.

WB and I are working towards having a better lifestyle- that is why he is a teacher. He is smart enough to do something very high-pressure but he loves the lifestyle he has.

 

I just really want what I spend the majority of my time doing to MEAN something.

 

It does... but I think I could understand where you are coming from with respect to your current situation, given that most of your clients are not people as such, but are companies etc.

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melodymatters

My good friend has been an ADA since she got out of law school and loves it. She adopted a little buy from russia and they have been very generous with leave time with her. Plus she has tons of job satisfaction.

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Just a random thought...

 

Having to do with the government part. Have you ever considered military law? JAG.

I actually looked into it my self but it was 17 years ago.

Being ex military, I can say that, hours and pay might not be the greatest, although they are both better as a officer than enlisted, but as far as actually cases go, it would be allot more diverse than civilian.

 

I know the military is not for everyone, and to be honest, I did enjoy my time in but probably wouldn't do it again.

 

I do wish you luck in the hunt, and hope you find something that you can enjoy....and get payed.

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RecordProducer
It means there's an "us" (associates) and a "them" (the partners/owners of the firm) mentality. It's not a team-like environment. Instead, it's more of a master-servant dynamic.
Oh, gotta love that. :sick:

 

Tell me something, SG: if I don't get accepted into law school, are you going to tell me "Don't worry, better for you!" or "Oh, I am so sorry"? :)

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Tell me something, SG: if I don't get accepted into law school, are you going to tell me "Don't worry, better for you!" or "Oh, I am so sorry"? :)

 

I beg and plead my friends not to go to law school. I'd do the same for you. ;)

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