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When people in church use the word "Father" in prayer, who are they addressing? What about the general word "God"? Does everybody mean the same Father and the same God?

 

I have been thinking about this a lot lately. Jesus, himself, confronted the Pharisees, who were a group of religious people which claimed to be followers of God, the Father. Yet Jesus exposed their real beliefs and even said the harsh comment that THEIR Father was Satan. Ouch. Imagine hearing that.

 

What gets me thinking about Jesus' comment is that he didn't say it to atheists or followers of some conspicious Satanic cult religion. He said it to those who carried God's name! Even the term Pharisee has the self-endowed meaning "loved of God".

 

Is it possible that, in modern times, those who organize to pray in churches are actually praying to Satan when they say "Father"? I know many of you might say...wait a minute, that is ridiculous, how could you say such a thing? But let me ask you: did Jesus not do this very thing? The Pharisees in ancient times didn't go around saying they worshipped Satan. Yet Jesus exposed them and clearly said they did!

 

In the Book of Revelation we are told that Satan (through the antichrist) would set himself up "as God" in the temple and he would even be worshipped as God. Has this happened already? Does this refer to the modern church? Has Satan so cleverly and deceptively taken the place "as God" in the church so that people are praying to HIM when they say "Father"? Remember, Satan is the master counterfeit, the master liar, and the master deceiver. Do you think he would EVER be obvious?

 

I say this because, from a Biblical perspective, almost all of what I see in the modern church, as a whole, is not Scriptural. It is an organized social institution which largely pursues the desires of man, not the will of God. Money, wealth, earthly success, etc, seem to be the topics of prayer and aspiration, rather than the things which Jesus taught us to strive for. In fact, didn't Satan, himself, offer Jesus all of these very things while trying to tempt him? (Money, wealth, earthyl success, etc?)

 

What do you all think? Are we living in the day when the prophecy in Revelation is being fulfilled? Is Satan the actual god of the modern church, in a way which is subtle and deceptive? Do people pray to a different "Father" than Jehovah?

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I definitely think there are wolves in sheeps clothing; evil people who can put up a good front. And I think that there are some church leaders that are thrust in the limelight because they make for a scandalous story.

 

But when I look at my church, and all of the other churches I've been to...I see a whole lot of good and love and strong biblical teaching. Of course, no one's perfect...but even the disciples had their issues!

 

Are we living in the day when the prophecy in Revelation is being fulfilled?

 

Everyday, we're one step closer!

 

Is Satan the actual god of the modern church, in a way which is subtle and deceptive?

 

No, I don't think so. But, some people who attend church don't really put their faith in God. So, by default, their lives are centered on things of the world.

 

Do people pray to a different "Father" than Jehovah?

 

No!! :)

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Fallen Petals
When people in church use the word "Father" in prayer, who are they addressing? What about the general word "God"? Does everybody mean the same Father and the same God?

 

I have been thinking about this a lot lately. Jesus, himself, confronted the Pharisees, who were a group of religious people which claimed to be followers of God, the Father. Yet Jesus exposed their real beliefs and even said the harsh comment that THEIR Father was Satan. Ouch. Imagine hearing that.

 

What gets me thinking about Jesus' comment is that he didn't say it to atheists or followers of some conspicious Satanic cult religion. He said it to those who carried God's name! Even the term Pharisee has the self-endowed meaning "loved of God".

 

Is it possible that, in modern times, those who organize to pray in churches are actually praying to Satan when they say "Father"? I know many of you might say...wait a minute, that is ridiculous, how could you say such a thing? But let me ask you: did Jesus not do this very thing? The Pharisees in ancient times didn't go around saying they worshipped Satan. Yet Jesus exposed them and clearly said they did!

 

In the Book of Revelation we are told that Satan (through the antichrist) would set himself up "as God" in the temple and he would even be worshipped as God. Has this happened already? Does this refer to the modern church? Has Satan so cleverly and deceptively taken the place "as God" in the church so that people are praying to HIM when they say "Father"? Remember, Satan is the master counterfeit, the master liar, and the master deceiver. Do you think he would EVER be obvious?

 

I say this because, from a Biblical perspective, almost all of what I see in the modern church, as a whole, is not Scriptural. It is an organized social institution which largely pursues the desires of man, not the will of God. Money, wealth, earthly success, etc, seem to be the topics of prayer and aspiration, rather than the things which Jesus taught us to strive for. In fact, didn't Satan, himself, offer Jesus all of these very things while trying to tempt him? (Money, wealth, earthyl success, etc?)

 

What do you all think? Are we living in the day when the prophecy in Revelation is being fulfilled? Is Satan the actual god of the modern church, in a way which is subtle and deceptive? Do people pray to a different "Father" than Jehovah?

 

Jesus even said that there would be those calling to him and he would turn away and say that he never knew them because they were not following the correct "father". Unfortunately many are mislead today and yes, in fact, they are calling upon the wrong "father" because they don't even know the right one. The true fault lies on the heads of the religious leaders, just as it did in Jesus day - which is why he said they were misleading the flock. But in reality even simple biblical doctrines can be proven or disproven by reading the Bible itself... so I think that's where self accountability comes in. We have access to the Bible, so if the leaders of our religion say it's in there, do we take that on faith or do we look it up for ourselves and prove it to ourselves? If not, then it's very possible we're calling on Satan rather than Jehovah.

 

Oh and Satan? He actually doesn't even care so much if we worship him directly - just so long as we're not properly worshiping God. He'll settle for apathy, it still gets the job done.

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Jesus even said that there would be those calling to him and he would turn away and say that he never knew them because they were not following the correct "father". Unfortunately many are mislead today and yes, in fact, they are calling upon the wrong "father" because they don't even know the right one. The true fault lies on the heads of the religious leaders, just as it did in Jesus day - which is why he said they were misleading the flock. But in reality even simple biblical doctrines can be proven or disproven by reading the Bible itself... so I think that's where self accountability comes in. We have access to the Bible, so if the leaders of our religion say it's in there, do we take that on faith or do we look it up for ourselves and prove it to ourselves? If not, then it's very possible we're calling on Satan rather than Jehovah.

 

Oh and Satan? He actually doesn't even care so much if we worship him directly - just so long as we're not properly worshiping God. He'll settle for apathy, it still gets the job done.

 

Truth has been spoken.

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I hope not to offend anyone by saying this, but consider for a moment the church of Joel Osteen. I am not saying that all members there are "going to hell" nor am I saying that Osteen, himself, is "going to hell", but just think about the following:

 

1) He has a large golden earth behind his pulpit. Notice what there is not: a cross. (Osteen has explained this by saying that the cross may be "offensive" to seekers.) That may seem just grasping at straws but think what the earth symbolizes. Who is the "god of this world"? Satan. And the fact that it's gold almost reminds me of the golden calf which the Israelites worshipped. Want to know something interesting? Did you know the Israelites mistakenly thought they were worshipping JEHOVAH when they bowed down to the golden calf? I'm serious. Moses went up to Mount Sinai and the Isrealites got impatient and lost...so they constructed THEIR representation of Jehovah. They truly thought they were worshipping Jehovah when they made the golden calf. So are certain churches, in like manner, worshipping like pagans when they believe they are worshipping the real Father?

 

2) He rarely, if ever, talks about sin or repentance. From the standpoint of Jesus and John the Baptist, this was the fundamental STARTING POINT, without which there could be no genuine conversion. If you want to say that Osteen is just a "positive speaker" that's fine--and I'd even agree--but why does he have to wrap it all up in the guise of genuine Gospel?

 

3) From my listening to him, it seems that AT LEAST 75% of his sermons are about gaining worldly success, financial success, health, job promotions, and "favor" from God. I merely need to direct you to what Satan, himself, tempted Jesus with: bread (health), the kingdoms of the earth (worldly success), and the angels to come to his assistance if he were to jump off temple corner (symbolizes God's "favor"). Jesus declined all these. We should as well. Why? Because this world is passing away.

 

For those who haven't seen the EXCELLENT youtube video which shows the similarites between Joel Osteen's teachings and that of New Age Luciferianism, please watch this video. It's interesting that the Luciferians refer to Satan as "God" and "Father":

 

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M30, there is more to the "modern church" than Osteen. He's in the limelight. But he doesn't represent the entire Christian community. The "church" is much, MUCH bigger than one church site in Texas.

 

Do you think your church provides sound biblical teaching? Have you attended a variety of services in different locations around the world?

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M30, there is more to the "modern church" than Osteen. He's in the limelight. But he doesn't represent the entire Christian community. The "church" is much, MUCH bigger than one church site in Texas.

 

Do you think your church provides sound biblical teaching? Have you attended a variety of services in different locations around the world?

 

I think my church is more sound than average, yes. But the unfortunate thing is that all pastors, to varying degrees, depend on the tithes/offerings of their congregation. The Word of God is more pure than we are able to handle or comprehend. To speak the unadulterated Word of God in nearly all cases would be to lose most followers. It's just how it goes. They are so pure that most Christians don't even want to hear it because, even as converted believers, we still operate in the flesh with inclinations against God.

 

The words of the LORD are pure, like silver refined in an earthen furnace, purified seven times over. (Psalm 12:6)

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I think my church is more sound than average, yes. But the unfortunate thing is that all pastors, to varying degrees, depend on the tithes/offerings of their congregation. The Word of God is more pure than we are able to handle or comprehend. To speak the unadulterated Word of God in nearly all cases would be to lose most followers. It's just how it goes.

 

The words of the LORD are pure, like silver refined in an earthen furnace, purified seven times over. (Psalm 12:6)

 

It's sad, but I'm sure you're right that the message is often convoluted in one way or another, due to sin. Nonetheless, I still firmly believe that, in general, the spirit of God does fill the church.

 

But, I think you're right to be wary of being led astray! With that, I completely agree, and I think you're wise to do so. It's so easy to get too comfortable.

 

"But keep on alert at all times, praying that you may have the strength to escape all these things that are about to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man". Luke 21:36

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Fallen Petals

I thought what you mentioned about Joel Osteen was interesting. I know nothing about that - I don't watch a lot of news, I rely on family members who are avid news hounds for updates on the important things and find myself criminally behind in certain things going on in the world. But that's a different topic for a different thread ;)

 

But the thing that caught my eye was that he doesn't hang a cross. I have come across very few people or religions who have bothered to tackle the issue of the cross - which sounds like a small one, except that it isn't. So just to talk about this ONE doctrine which falls under the category I was talking about before - many religions use the cross as an idol. Rather than getting into whether or not they used a cross vs a stake, that's truly insignificant next to the fact that many people wear them as symbols, pray with them, bow to them...aren't they all just another form of the Golden Calf??? How many times is it written that we should avoid idol worship? And yet in some congregations it's imperative that they hold this tiny object in order to properly pray. Jesus never held anything grasped in his hands to call upon his father, I have yet to find a single scripture where any of the disciples prayed to or while using crosses... I mean, that's just one example - but idol worship can be one of the first things to lead people away from proper prayer, which in turn leads them away from true understanding, which of course leads them away from the correct "Father".

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pureinheart
I hope not to offend anyone by saying this, but consider for a moment the church of Joel Osteen. I am not saying that all members there are "going to hell" nor am I saying that Osteen, himself, is "going to hell", but just think about the following:

 

1) He has a large golden earth behind his pulpit. Notice what there is not: a cross. (Osteen has explained this by saying that the cross may be "offensive" to seekers.) That may seem just grasping at straws but think what the earth symbolizes. Who is the "god of this world"? Satan. And the fact that it's gold almost reminds me of the golden calf which the Israelites worshipped. Want to know something interesting? Did you know the Israelites mistakenly thought they were worshipping JEHOVAH when they bowed down to the golden calf? I'm serious. Moses went up to Mount Sinai and the Isrealites got impatient and lost...so they constructed THEIR representation of Jehovah. They truly thought they were worshipping Jehovah when they made the golden calf. So are certain churches, in like manner, worshipping like pagans when they believe they are worshipping the real Father?

 

2) He rarely, if ever, talks about sin or repentance. From the standpoint of Jesus and John the Baptist, this was the fundamental STARTING POINT, without which there could be no genuine conversion. If you want to say that Osteen is just a "positive speaker" that's fine--and I'd even agree--but why does he have to wrap it all up in the guise of genuine Gospel?

 

3) From my listening to him, it seems that AT LEAST 75% of his sermons are about gaining worldly success, financial success, health, job promotions, and "favor" from God. I merely need to direct you to what Satan, himself, tempted Jesus with: bread (health), the kingdoms of the earth (worldly success), and the angels to come to his assistance if he were to jump off temple corner (symbolizes God's "favor"). Jesus declined all these. We should as well. Why? Because this world is passing away.

 

For those who haven't seen the EXCELLENT youtube video which shows the similarites between Joel Osteen's teachings and that of New Age Luciferianism, please watch this video. It's interesting that the Luciferians refer to Satan as "God" and "Father":

 

 

Hey M30, no offense taken:) I just feel the need to come to this Brothers defense, if you will, the other side of the story:

 

Philip Wagner | What?s the Problem with Joel Osteen?

 

 

Just want to say, when I was first saved, spent a considerable amount of time critiquing the "church", Pastors in particular.

 

For me, it would have been better to search more in my Word concerning love, I would not have gone through some of the things God had to take me through to learn how to love.

 

There really is not enough love shown by people in this world...people thrist and hunger to love and be loved, to see joy especially in todays society.

 

When working with a couple of thousand people in one big hanger and a few small buildings, well I knew just about everyone. I loved my job and the people. I laughed a lot and joy was the trademark. Out of all those people there was only a handful that had negative comments concerning me. Did I do anything to them...no...they hated my joy most likely- they may have been hurting and resented joy.

 

The point to this is, people are attracted to joy because it gives them hope and is a major motivator. That's why the Apostle Paul said to count it all joy IMO.

 

Rarely did I have to pronounce my Christianity...it was obvious. I didn't tell others they were going to hell (unless totally instructed by the Spirit to do so, and can't remember God ever telling me to do that)... I told them about heaven and the love of God, and if they were interested led them into the prayer of salvation.

 

It's God that knocks on the door concerning the hearts of men, and then they make the choice, we have little to do with anothers salvation IMO. We can be used by Him, although if we mess up, He'll find another because that's how God is.

 

The Lord led me to a church during a difficult time in my life, He totally poured His Spirit out on me...it was a trip. The joy of the Lord was radical...it was a large church. The Pastors wife hated my guts and made it known whenever she could. I made an appointment to see her to try to rectify the matter, to see why I had offended her so greatly...she said she knew I'd come to see her. She proceded to rip me a new one, telling me how spiritual she was due to being raised by Jack Hayford and his wife...it was really bad and don't even remember all of the cruel things she said to me. I had really done nothing to deserve this, except for being happy- jealousy is a weird thing..

 

About a month later she freaked out, left her husband and child, running off to Georgia. The church split at that point.

 

Could some of these Pastors be jealous? Can they really say he is out of the will of God because he doesn't preach the way they think he should?

 

I have come to realise that God is in control, He will bless or repay.

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Again, I can see the value of a positive message. But there are millions of counsellors and motivational speakers who can fill that role. I just don't see the need to blanket that with the name of Christianity. At best, people get dumbed-down, borderline untrue doctrine there. It may help people feel better about themselves, but at the cost of potential misleading. When Paul said to count all things as joy, he still acknowledged that God reserves the right to allow us to suffer, be sick, run short on money, etc. Paul didn't say, as Osteen does, that God WANTS us to be abundant in this life all the time. His whole message was the temporal life is insignificant. Yet, knowing this, we can still have joy no matter what in this life--whether well fed or hungry (as he said).

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pureinheart
When people in church use the word "Father" in prayer, who are they addressing? What about the general word "God"? Does everybody mean the same Father and the same God?

 

I have been thinking about this a lot lately. Jesus, himself, confronted the Pharisees, who were a group of religious people which claimed to be followers of God, the Father. Yet Jesus exposed their real beliefs and even said the harsh comment that THEIR Father was Satan. Ouch. Imagine hearing that.

 

What gets me thinking about Jesus' comment is that he didn't say it to atheists or followers of some conspicious Satanic cult religion. He said it to those who carried God's name! Even the term Pharisee has the self-endowed meaning "loved of God".

 

Is it possible that, in modern times, those who organize to pray in churches are actually praying to Satan when they say "Father"? I know many of you might say...wait a minute, that is ridiculous, how could you say such a thing? But let me ask you: did Jesus not do this very thing? The Pharisees in ancient times didn't go around saying they worshipped Satan. Yet Jesus exposed them and clearly said they did!

 

In the Book of Revelation we are told that Satan (through the antichrist) would set himself up "as God" in the temple and he would even be worshipped as God. Has this happened already? Does this refer to the modern church? Has Satan so cleverly and deceptively taken the place "as God" in the church so that people are praying to HIM when they say "Father"? Remember, Satan is the master counterfeit, the master liar, and the master deceiver. Do you think he would EVER be obvious?

 

I say this because, from a Biblical perspective, almost all of what I see in the modern church, as a whole, is not Scriptural. It is an organized social institution which largely pursues the desires of man, not the will of God. Money, wealth, earthly success, etc, seem to be the topics of prayer and aspiration, rather than the things which Jesus taught us to strive for. In fact, didn't Satan, himself, offer Jesus all of these very things while trying to tempt him? (Money, wealth, earthyl success, etc?)

 

What do you all think? Are we living in the day when the prophecy in Revelation is being fulfilled? Is Satan the actual god of the modern church, in a way which is subtle and deceptive? Do people pray to a different "Father" than Jehovah?

 

First, I love your critical thinking abilities. From you and others am learning a lot (my brain hurts even). These make for wonderful discussions...and as they say, iron sharpens iron.

 

Personally think we are in Ezekiel 38 if one looks at world-wide events, and other Prophetic Scriptures. We are seeing things wind down FAST.

 

Ummmm, in bold, am not sure, although if you look at the direction this country is in, well that's a priddy good indicator. If the Modern Church is responsible...not sure.

 

Using the US as an example, there was a systematic breakdown brought about through many years and many entities.

 

IMO, looking at the big picture, spirituality/religion/different faiths had it's (and still does) opressive nature. Looking at Jesus, He is not opressive.

 

Thank you for wording your post M30 the way you did, it gives me the opportunity to voice certain things that don't lead too far off topic.

 

I was very upset when "God" was being removed from many things...God spoke to me stating that people could take Him out of buildings, off of money and wording, whatever. BUT they cannot remove Me, I'm still there.

 

I would say this is true with the churches as well. Man can't remove God from anything IMO.

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pureinheart
Again, I can see the value of a positive message. But there are millions of counsellors and motivational speakers who can fill that role. I just don't see the need to blanket that with the name of Christianity. At best, people get dumbed-down, borderline untrue doctrine there. It may help people feel better about themselves, but at the cost of potential misleading. When Paul said to count all things as joy, he still acknowledged that God reserves the right to allow us to suffer, be sick, run short on money, etc. Paul didn't say, as Osteen does, that God WANTS us to be abundant in this life all the time. His whole message was the temporal life is insignificant. Yet, knowing this, we can still have joy no matter what in this life--whether well fed or hungry (as he said).

 

In another post, you touched on the things of tis world- temporal things. I do have to say that God does bless us with even temporal things.

 

It's a funny story actually- the Colgate company...this poor guy couldnot get away from the temporal. Can't remember his name, but the original owner of Colgate (think it was the original owner...lol...should look it up) ...anyway this guy gave 90% of profits in tithes and offerings. From the story I heard a long time ago (well not tooooo long ago haha) he felt he should turn around the 10% thing and give 90%...his 10% kept growing almost out of control.

 

Dude, have to say when my mind goes into the evils of this world, my head spins...it runs soooo deep, BUT my focus is then off of what God is doing in the midst of the great evil.

 

Want to say, not in a critical manor, that even the Teachers that many follow and like because they carry a harder line...even they write books and make money...which if one takes the harder line, this would even water down a hard line message IMO.

 

In closing, we are are people, capable of great evil...some are sinners saved by Grace, yet still sin. This is why Jesus has to come back and not in any way, shape or form using this as an excuse to sin...we all sin. So in answer to OP...we are all responsible.

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todreaminblue
When people in church use the word "Father" in prayer, who are they addressing? What about the general word "God"? Does everybody mean the same Father and the same God?

 

I have been thinking about this a lot lately. Jesus, himself, confronted the Pharisees, who were a group of religious people which claimed to be followers of God, the Father. Yet Jesus exposed their real beliefs and even said the harsh comment that THEIR Father was Satan. Ouch. Imagine hearing that.

 

What gets me thinking about Jesus' comment is that he didn't say it to atheists or followers of some conspicious Satanic cult religion. He said it to those who carried God's name! Even the term Pharisee has the self-endowed meaning "loved of God".

 

Is it possible that, in modern times, those who organize to pray in churches are actually praying to Satan when they say "Father"? I know many of you might say...wait a minute, that is ridiculous, how could you say such a thing? But let me ask you: did Jesus not do this very thing? The Pharisees in ancient times didn't go around saying they worshipped Satan. Yet Jesus exposed them and clearly said they did!

 

In the Book of Revelation we are told that Satan (through the antichrist) would set himself up "as God" in the temple and he would even be worshipped as God. Has this happened already? Does this refer to the modern church? Has Satan so cleverly and deceptively taken the place "as God" in the church so that people are praying to HIM when they say "Father"? Remember, Satan is the master counterfeit, the master liar, and the master deceiver. Do you think he would EVER be obvious?

 

I say this because, from a Biblical perspective, almost all of what I see in the modern church, as a whole, is not Scriptural. It is an organized social institution which largely pursues the desires of man, not the will of God. Money, wealth, earthly success, etc, seem to be the topics of prayer and aspiration, rather than the things which Jesus taught us to strive for. In fact, didn't Satan, himself, offer Jesus all of these very things while trying to tempt him? (Money, wealth, earthyl success, etc?)

 

What do you all think? Are we living in the day when the prophecy in Revelation is being fulfilled? Is Satan the actual god of the modern church, in a way which is subtle and deceptive? Do people pray to a different "Father" than Jehovah?

 

 

i know who i pray to and when you say dear heavenly father, to me there is only one god one heavenly father...i pray to him......and i say my prayers in the name of jesus christ at the end...because through him its the way i can be with god eventually and have agency to pray to a father i believe in....who is in heaven .......i pray to the father who gave his only begotten son to forgive my sins and everyone elses..so i can be with god again.one day...deb

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BetheButterfly
i know who i pray to and when you say dear heavenly father, to me there is only one god one heavenly father...i pray to him......and i say my prayers in the name of jesus christ at the end...because through him its the way i can be with god eventually and have agency to pray to a father i believe in....who is in heaven .......i pray to the father who gave his only begotten son to forgive my sins and everyone elses..so i can be with god again.one day...deb

 

Agreed :love:

 

I believe in what Jesus said, that is accounted in the Bible for posterity. Jesus called God his Father and our Father too!!! That to me is amazing! God is our Spiritual Father, our Heavenly Father, and to me that fills me with happiness and joy!!! :bunny:

 

One thing I think is interesting is that Jesus calling God "Father" is a part of the promise God gave to King David concerning the one who would be on his throne forever: (I boldened some in the verses below.)

 

2 Samuel 7:12-17

II Samuel Chapter 7

12 When thy days are fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, that shall proceed out of thy body, and I will establish his kingdom.

13 He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom for ever.

14 I will be to him for a father, and he shall be to Me for a son; if he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men;

15 but My mercy shall not depart from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee.

16 And thy house and thy kingdom shall be made sure for ever before thee; thy throne shall be established for ever.'

17 According to all these words, and according to all this vision, so did Nathan speak unto David."

 

1 Chronicles 17

I Chronicles Chapter 17

11 And it shall come to pass, when thy days are fulfilled that thou must go to be with thy fathers, that I will set up thy seed after thee, who shall be of thy sons; and I will establish his kingdom.

12 He shall build Me a house, and I will establish his throne for ever.

13 I will be to him for a father, and he shall be to Me for a son; and I will not take My mercy away from him, as I took it from him that was before thee;

14 but I will settle him in My house and in My kingdom for ever; and his throne shall be established for ever.'

15 According to all these words, and according to all this vision, so did Nathan speak unto David."

 

Isn't that cool?!? :)

That really intrigues me, because it's very important to understand that Christianity is based on Judaic promises/prophesies, and that Jesus is Jewish and fulfills the prophesies and promises concerning him.

 

Now, many Jewish people who believe in G-d do not believe Jesus is the Messiah, and they have valid reasons. However, CHRISTIANS ARE NOT TO PERSECUTE THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE IN JESUS! RATHER, WE ARE TO LOVE AND CARE FOR THEM, NO MATTER WHAT. Jesus did not tell his followers to condemn those who don't accept Jesus to hell, but rather he focused on his faithful followers' faith: (John 6:65-69). I think one of the most horrible tragedies of the history of the world has been when "Christians" have persecuted other people, including persecuting Jewish people who do not believe in Jesus. That is evil and wrong and totally disobeying Jesus.

 

One of the valid reasons why many Jewish people who believe in G-d don't believe Jesus is the Messiah is because the Messiah is supposed to free Jewish people from oppression, and Rome destroyed Jerusalem in 70 AD... Jesus obviously didn't free his people from Roman oppression. I guess it's hard for a person who teaches love for one's enemies to physically free one's people through military might...

 

Come to think of it though, if Jesus had fought against the Romans, then he would have been killing them and then why would he have healed the centurion's servant (Matthew 8:8)?

 

One of my favorite passages in the Bible is Acts 10, when Peter learns that Gentiles can follow Jesus too!!! Since I'm a Gentile, that's relevant to me! :p If Jesus was set on conquering his people's enemies, than I doubt Peter would have been told to see Cornelious, the Roman centurion, and tell him about Jesus!!! I think it's awesome how we, both Jews and Gentiles, are "one" in Christ Jesus, and together can call God our Father in Heaven!!!

 

Paul states that idea very eloquently in his letter to the church in Galatia:

Galatians 3 NIV - Faith or Works of the Law - You foolish - Bible Gateway

"26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus."

Edited by BetheButterfly
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Good points, butterfly, but my main point is that it's possible to truly believe your "father" is God/Jehovah, when in fact he may not be. The Pharisees are the best example. They got downright mad at Jesus, saying that they are true followers of Moses and God is their father. Jesus laid the smack down by speaking truth. He in essence said that the proof is in the fruit, as well as your doctrine. If you claim to have God as your father, but your doctrine and fruit doesn't line up with Gods Word, such a person has Satan as their father, since Satan is the Father of lies and deception.

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TheFinalWord
Good points, butterfly, but my main point is that it's possible to truly believe your "father" is God/Jehovah, when in fact he may not be. The Pharisees are the best example. They got downright mad at Jesus, saying that they are true followers of Moses and God is their father. Jesus laid the smack down by speaking truth. He in essence said that the proof is in the fruit, as well as your doctrine. If you claim to have God as your father, but your doctrine and fruit doesn't line up with Gods Word, such a person has Satan as their father, since Satan is the Father of lies and deception.

 

Yeah, this is very true!!!

 

One interesting thing is what Jesus said...

 

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

 

For example, I have been studying the life of John Hus; he was Bohemian Priest that was (along with Wycliffe) one of the first to expound the Word of God to the people in English. He was eventually burned at the stake for refusing to recant. The people that burned him thought they were doing God's Will...

“Alas, drag my poor carcass to death, so that you cannot sin any longer against an innocent victim!" "Leave the mercy or punishment of my soul to Him who is a just judge and not like you unfortunate blind ones. My trust is in the Almighty God and in my Lord Jesus Christ, who has redeemed me and has called me to preach His Gospel to the last breath of life. I fervently hope that he may have mercy upon me and receive me in grace and that he will hand to me the cup of eternal salvation and will never take it from me. I also truly believe that he will hand me this cup today, out of which I shall drink bliss and my salvation in eternity. His blessed name be praised by all!" - John Hus

 

One thing BetheButterfly said that was intriguing was:

 

Now, many Jewish people who believe in G-d do not believe Jesus is the Messiah, and they have valid reasons. However, CHRISTIANS ARE NOT TO PERSECUTE THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE IN JESUS! RATHER, WE ARE TO LOVE AND CARE FOR THEM, NO MATTER WHAT. Jesus did not tell his followers to condemn those who don't accept Jesus to hell, but rather he focused on his faithful followers' faith: (John 6:65-69). I think one of the most horrible tragedies of the history of the world has been when "Christians" have persecuted other people, including persecuting Jewish people who do not believe in Jesus. That is evil and wrong and totally disobeying Jesus.

 

This is very true and often the Word of God will bring out what is in people's hearts, even if they do not know it. It's why the bible says the Word of Life is a mirror.

 

Those that have hate in their heart, the Word will expose it. Like M30 said, we can tell by their fruits what is in their heart. We can see this even in false Christians, who will malign the Word of God to justify their hate.

 

Listening and Doing

 

My dear brothers and sisters, take note of this: Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to become angry, because human anger does not produce the righteousness that God desires.Therefore, get rid of all moral filth and the evil that is so prevalent and humbly accept the word planted in you, which can save you. Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says. Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like someone who looks at his face in a mirror and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like. But whoever looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues in it—not forgetting what they have heard, but doing it—they will be blessed in what they do. Those who consider themselves religious and yet do not keep a tight rein on their tongues deceive themselves, and their religion is worthless. Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.

 

 

As water reflects the face,

so one’s life reflects the heart.

Edited by TheFinalWord
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TheFinalWord
I hope not to offend anyone by saying this, but consider for a moment the church of Joel Osteen. I am not saying that all members there are "going to hell" nor am I saying that Osteen, himself, is "going to hell", but just think about the following:

 

1) He has a large golden earth behind his pulpit. Notice what there is not: a cross. (Osteen has explained this by saying that the cross may be "offensive" to seekers.) That may seem just grasping at straws but think what the earth symbolizes. Who is the "god of this world"? Satan. And the fact that it's gold almost reminds me of the golden calf which the Israelites worshipped. Want to know something interesting? Did you know the Israelites mistakenly thought they were worshipping JEHOVAH when they bowed down to the golden calf? I'm serious. Moses went up to Mount Sinai and the Isrealites got impatient and lost...so they constructed THEIR representation of Jehovah. They truly thought they were worshipping Jehovah when they made the golden calf. So are certain churches, in like manner, worshipping like pagans when they believe they are worshipping the real Father?

 

2) He rarely, if ever, talks about sin or repentance. From the standpoint of Jesus and John the Baptist, this was the fundamental STARTING POINT, without which there could be no genuine conversion. If you want to say that Osteen is just a "positive speaker" that's fine--and I'd even agree--but why does he have to wrap it all up in the guise of genuine Gospel?

 

3) From my listening to him, it seems that AT LEAST 75% of his sermons are about gaining worldly success, financial success, health, job promotions, and "favor" from God. I merely need to direct you to what Satan, himself, tempted Jesus with: bread (health), the kingdoms of the earth (worldly success), and the angels to come to his assistance if he were to jump off temple corner (symbolizes God's "favor"). Jesus declined all these. We should as well. Why? Because this world is passing away.

 

For those who haven't seen the EXCELLENT youtube video which shows the similarites between Joel Osteen's teachings and that of New Age Luciferianism, please watch this video. It's interesting that the Luciferians refer to Satan as "God" and "Father":

 

 

It doesn't offend me, although like I've said before I think that there are more important things to be doing than actively working to tear down other ministries. :) Especially by people that only have a cursory understanding of LakeWood church. Joel's sermons are only a small part of the church. I used to go to a extremely large church and one thing the pastor would say was "one thing a big church can't be is a small church" :D Small groups and ministries make up a large part of his church.

 

But alas, I know that people do not like that he teaches principles for success. M30, what do you do with the umpteen verses in Proverbs that talk about how to be productive in life? Are preachers not allowed to teach from Proverbs? Even in his sermons, I have found that Osteen largely deals with attitudes, rarely does he deal with success. People get beaten down all week long, how does it hurt to have someone tell you "You can do it! You are a champion in God's eyes" I don't see the harm, and actually I see a lot of benefit in that. :)

 

Joel Osteen Uncomfortable and Irritated - YouTube

 

Look at the first comment on YouTube:

 

"He is the reason i got my first bible ... 2 weeks ago . Great guy !"

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TFW,

 

I was so bent on discovering the truth about the Bible's stance on money that I spent probably 12 hours on it.

 

The basic message is this:

 

1) Be disciplined and diligent in your work.

2) God tends to reward diligent hands with financial success BUT it may not necessarily be financial.

3) Do not strive to be rich. Proverbs tells us to be wise enough to desist the urge to chase wealth.

4) The conclusion is that we should work hard BUT not care necessarily if we are rich or not.

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TheFinalWord
TFW,

 

I was so bent on discovering the truth about the Bible's stance on money that I spent probably 12 hours on it.

 

The basic message is this:

 

1) Be disciplined and diligent in your work.

2) God tends to reward diligent hands with financial success BUT it may not necessarily be financial.

3) Do not strive to be rich. Proverbs tells us to be wise enough to desist the urge to chase wealth.

4) The conclusion is that we should work hard BUT not care necessarily if we are rich or not.

 

Good outline! I think you have brought these topics up in various threads. If you ever put a study together I'd love to see :)

 

One of the most interesting encounters in the bible to me is when the rich young ruler asks Jesus how he can obtain eternal life. The story says that Jesus looked at him and loved him, and then said to sell everything to follow him.

 

For me, I have found tithing is a good way to keep greed in check. I'm not saying it is or isn't required, but I have found it helps me. :) What do you think about tithing?

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pureinheart
Good outline! I think you have brought these topics up in various threads. If you ever put a study together I'd love to see :)

 

One of the most interesting encounters in the bible to me is when the rich young ruler asks Jesus how he can obtain eternal life. The story says that Jesus looked at him and loved him, and then said to sell everything to follow him.

 

For me, I have found tithing is a good way to keep greed in check. I'm not saying it is or isn't required, but I have found it helps me. :)What do you think about tithing?

 

LOL, one time heard a teaching that said one can tell where a persons heart is by looking at his/her checkbook.

 

I think tithing is essentual. For me, giving money to Gods work can be the hardest, and in the past have made all sorts of excuses not to. Now I can't afford not to tithe!

 

It's the heart of the matter that God is interested in IMO..He's more concerned with our hearts than anything.

 

Getting real- we all have idols. I could sit and pick out everyone elses idol (and do) till I take that grand look in the mirror and think I'll forever be more concerned about the twig so that I don't have to see my own forest. Maybe this will change someday, but doubt it.

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pureinheart
TFW,

 

I was so bent on discovering the truth about the Bible's stance on money that I spent probably 12 hours on it.

 

The basic message is this:

 

1) Be disciplined and diligent in your work.

2) God tends to reward diligent hands with financial success BUT it may not necessarily be financial.

3) Do not strive to be rich. Proverbs tells us to be wise enough to desist the urge to chase wealth.

4) The conclusion is that we should work hard BUT not care necessarily if we are rich or not.

 

You know M30, it's a trip how God has blessed my hard work with things other than money. Man dude, I'd get so frustrated with people around me that seem to not have to work as hard. Like getting frustrated with always having to do physical work (no matter where it is)...but fact is I like physical work and don't think I have to tell anyone what the benefits are concerning it.

 

I think this is why we are supposed to keep our eyes on God and ourselves...not looking at what the other person has or doesn't have...this is easier said than done though:o:o:o:o

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For me, I have found tithing is a good way to keep greed in check. I'm not saying it is or isn't required, but I have found it helps me. :) What do you think about tithing?

 

I agree :). Tithing is so important; the benefits are countless! I've noticed the spiritual and financial blessings that come along with it.

 

There are so many different perspectives on tithing. From the 'give the standard 10%', to 'give the amount God puts on your heart', to 'don't tithe anymore: the tithing requirement was broken when Christ died and rose again'.

 

I pretty much think that we should tithe whatever God has put into our own hearts. God knows us, and knows when we're giving out of obligation, and not because we really want to.

 

I loved the story PIH posted about the Colgate man, who ended up tithing 90% :eek::D:eek:. That kind of giving doesn't come out of 'following the law' (aka sticking to the 10% rule). :)

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