Washington Post article on "Prosperity Gospel"

[M30USA]

I think this article is fantastic. I'm amazed that correct biblical teaching came from a secular publication. More power to them!

 

The Worst Ideas of the Decade (washingtonpost.com)

[pureinheart]

I think this article is fantastic. I'm amazed that correct biblical teaching came from a secular publication. More power to them!

 

The Worst Ideas of the Decade (washingtonpost.com)

 

Hey M30, great thread! LOL, and I have an opinion (shock, I know).

 

 

 

The ministries of three televangelists commonly viewed as founders of the prosperity gospel movement - Kenneth Hagin, Kenneth Copeland and Frederick K.C. Price - took hold in the 1970s and 1980s. One of the oldest and best-known proponents of prosperity theology, Oral Roberts - the television faith-healer who in 1987 told his flock that God would call him home if he didn't raise $8 million in a matter of weeks - died at 91 last week.

 

This part of the article I agree with and never kept up with any of these teachers because of this fact. I remember when Oral Roberts did that and was disgusted.

 

Now the rest that are spoken of further down in the article, I sincerely don't believe their main focus is prosperity in the form of only money.

 

My personal opinion of this is that it may not be Gods will for me to be rich, and it certainly isn't mine...too much thinking IMO, too much to take care of. I don't want to spend my life trying to protect money. God wants me to pray period, and that is His will for my life.

 

Now others- I don't think God has a problem with rich people, as long as money doesn't become their God.

 

With all teachers, I usually don't agree with their entire doctrines, but eat the chicken and spit out the bones.

 

It sounds like Joel needs prayer if his words weren't taken out of context and I've never heard personally the others only teach on prosperity in the terms of money alone. T.D. Jakes mostly teaches how to act right/trust God and Creflo talks a lot on sin (I've mainly heard him talk of fornication and adultry).

 

M30, I listen at these guys a lot and have their teachings on tape (mainly T.D. Jakes).

 

I can't agree that they are all about prosperity in terms of only money.

[pureinheart]

Wait M30- want to retract. I forgot about Benny Hinn and have to agree with the article, although I think his heart is mostly in the right place. He's got the anointing, but is not in alignment with God in certain areas. It reminds me of the one that calls themselves a "prophet", yet uses God like a cheap parlor trick, or hears the news and prophesies based on that...no real divine revelation. I can't say they don't have the calling, but can say they most likely are not operating in the Spirit.

[pie2]

Thank you for posting the article A relationship with God is definitely not defined by material possessions. Reading the report of many people (often from lower income brackets) feeling pressure to prove their "blessings from God" by maintaining a luxurious lifestyle that they can't really afford, was pretty discouraging.

 

I especially loved the article's quote:

 

Jesus was born poor, and he died poor. During his earthly tenure, he spoke time and again about the importance of spiritual wealth and health. When he talked about material wealth, it was usually part of a cautionary tale.

 

However, like so many things, I imagine that the road to the "Prosperity Gospel" was paved with the best intentions. I pretty sure the teachings started off with a relatively innocent interpretation of scripture. However, the slight twist in the message has eventually resulted in being greatly led astray, imo. Unfortunately, we're all led astray, to one degree or another.

 

I know that God has a plan though, and there is a reason for everything. So, maybe the Prosperity Gospel isn't biblically correct...but that doesn't mean that some people don't eventually find the true glory of God through it's message.

 

I know that for myself, when I first began a serious quest for all things spiritual, I was introduced to teaching styles, lifestyles, and messages that now seem pretty radical. But at the time, it was something that I needed to hear...and was just a stepping stone on my journey to a closer relationship with God.

[M30USA]

However, like so many things, I imagine that the road to the "Prosperity Gospel" was paved with the best intentions..

 

You know what they say about the road to hell, right?

 

And you are correct. Most people don't live their lives with bad intentions. It's not that we set out to do evil. It's just that our natural inclinations and bent always leads to sin and trouble 100% of the time, no exception. The Bible is crystal clear on this. If you sow according to the flesh, you will reap destruction. But if you sow according to the spirit, you will reap eternal life. The Bible also says God cannot be pleased in the flesh, but only the spirit.

[pie2]

You know what they say about the road to hell, right?

 

And you are correct. Most people don't live their lives with bad intentions. It's not that we set out to do evil. It's just that our natural inclinations and bent always leads to sin and trouble 100% of the time, no exception. The Bible is crystal clear on this. If you sow according to the flesh, you will reap destruction. But if you sow according to the spirit, you will reap eternal life. The Bible also says God cannot be pleased in the flesh, but only the spirit.

 

I completely agree The road to hell really can be paved with the best intentions, lol. It's so easy to get off-track. It's like we're constantly being pulled away from the truth, and we have to be evervigilant and pull ourselves back, over and over and over.

 

The real question for me though is, in what area of my life am I insisting that I've got it all figured out (as a diehard Prosperity-follower might)...and other believers say nope...all wrong? Because, really, it happens every day! People always believe that this rule or that practice, this belief or that prayer...is the right one! Sigh...it's complicated.

[M30USA]

I completely agree The road to hell really can be paved with the best intentions, lol. It's so easy to get off-track. It's like we're constantly being pulled away from the truth, and we have to be evervigilant and pull ourselves back, over and over and over.

 

The real question for me though is, in what area of my life am I insisting that I've got it all figured out (as a diehard Prosperity-follower might)...and other believers say nope...all wrong? Because, really, it happens every day! People always believe that this rule or that practice, this belief or that prayer...is the right one! Sigh...it's complicated.

 

The human heart is so utterly prone to deception that, unless we continuously feed it with Scripture and truth on a DAILY basis, we will be deceived again and again. Bank on it.

[pie2]

Bank on it.

 

[Lobouspo]

Not only do alot of the practitioners of the prosperity gospel preach a distorted message regarding wealth, but they also border on heresy in other areas. Correct me if I am wrong but I believe TD Jakes rejects the Trinity which is a major staple of Christian orthodoxy.

[pureinheart]

Not only do alot of the practitioners of the prosperity gospel preach a distorted message regarding wealth, but they also border on heresy in other areas. Correct me if I am wrong but I believe TD Jakes rejects the Trinity which is a major staple of Christian orthodoxy.

 

Will check this out as this is a dealbreaker.

[pureinheart]

Not only do alot of the practitioners of the prosperity gospel preach a distorted message regarding wealth, but they also border on heresy in other areas. Correct me if I am wrong but I believe TD Jakes rejects the Trinity which is a major staple of Christian orthodoxy.

T.D. Jakes Responds to the Journal | CRI

 

 

 

I believe in one God who is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. I believe these three have distinct and separate functions — so separate each has individual attributes, yet are one. I do not believe in three Gods.

 

 

This is what he said, and I don't get it fully. It doesn't sound right though.

[M30USA]

Well, if anyone can read this and not think that everybody is splitting hairs over semantics, then I don't know what to say.

 

It seems that in many religious circles, "rejects" and "has a slightly different understanding" are effectively the same thing, and instead of acknowledging the 99% of things they do agree on, they label each other heretics over the tiniest, most insignificant point of disagreement.

 

That may be the case, but hopefully everyone can use Scripture to judge who is right or wrong on any doctrine--and not their own opinion or the consensus of the culture.

[TheFinalWord]

Well, if anyone can read this and not think that everybody is splitting hairs over semantics, then I don't know what to say.

 

It seems that in many religious circles, "rejects" and "has a slightly different understanding" are effectively the same thing, and instead of acknowledging the 99% of things they do agree on, they label each other heretics over the tiniest, most insignificant point of disagreement.

 

I agree.

 

What is prosperity? To me, those of us in Western societies more than meet the definition of "rich" (i.e. Internet access, roof over your head, car, health insurance, enough disposable calories to become obese in 4 weeks, nice clothes, not to mention freedoms we enjoy). Should we not pursue, say, college degrees? Is that pursing prosperity?

 

To me, I do not respect pastors that openly mock and call out other pastors/ministries. I left a church one time b/c the pastor made a weekly point to mock and bash another ministry for his heretical interpretation of the white horse in Revelation. Or the horror I like Joel Osteen. The man does not have a mean bone in his body, yet people bash him left and right. He has even said, he is learning more and improving. No mercy though, just label and bash a man that they do not even know. Judge, jury, executioner. Do any of us have a ministry that houses over 40k people? Can any of us carry that burden? No, we are not equipped. Few are. Please stop and think before judging.

 

Miriam and Aaron began to talk against Moses because of his wife, for he had married an Ethiopian. “Has the Lord spoken only through Moses?” they asked. “Hasn’t he also spoken through us?” And the Lord heard this. (Now Moses was a very humble man, more humble than anyone else on the face of the earth.) He asked the Lord, “Why have you brought this trouble on your servant? What have I done to displease you that you put the burden of all these people on me? Did I conceive all these people? Did I give them birth? Why do you tell me to carry them in my arms, as a nurse carries an infant, to the land you promised on oath to their ancestors? Where can I get meat for all these people? They keep wailing to me, ‘Give us meat to eat!’ I cannot carry all these people by myself; the burden is too heavy for me. If this is how you are going to treat me, please go ahead and kill me—if I have found favor in your eyes—and do not let me face my own ruin.”

 

JOEL OSTEEN´S ANSWER TO HIS CRITICS (Please watch the description) - YouTube

 

Christians should focus on doing something PRODUCTIVE. Last time I checked, sowing discord among brothern doesn't rank high on God's "to-do" list for believers. Instead of nitpicking over ministries and each other, I think it is more edifying to seek God's calling for your life. That is enough. Let God be God, and you be you.

[pie2]

Christians should focus on doing something PRODUCTIVE. Last time I checked, sowing discord among brothern doesn't rank high on God's "to-do" list for believers. Instead of nitpicking over ministries and each other, I think it is more edifying to seek God's calling for your life. That is enough. Let God be God, and you be you.

 

. A lot of energy is completely wasted on nit-picking insignificant nuances. And I agree with you about bashing from the pulpit...I can't stand that!

 

As individual believers, God has told us to test everything, and hold on to the good (1 Thes. 5:21). I do think that the idea that we should hope for material blessings as a sign of God's love isn't a helpful perspective for my own life. Because a lot of awful people have great riches and a lot of people with very little on this earth are saints.

[Lobouspo]

I am sorry but calling out charlatans who distort Christianity is not nitpicking. How can you say someone that promulgates the Oneness Doctrine and rejects the Trinity is not heretical? People like Kenneth Copeland, Kenneth Hagin, and yes, to some degree T.D. Jakes need to be held accountable. I strongly recommend reading Christianity in Crisis and Counterfeit Revival by Hank Hanegraff. Christ himself warned us to beware of wolves in sheeps clothing.

[pie2]

I am sorry but calling out charlatans who distort Christianity is not nitpicking. How can you say someone that promulgates the Oneness Doctrine and rejects the Trinity is not heretical? People like Kenneth Copeland, Kenneth Hagin, and yes, to some degree T.D. Jakes need to be held accountable. I strongly recommend reading Christianity in Crisis and Counterfeit Revival by Hank Hanegraff. Christ himself warned us to beware of wolves in sheeps clothing.

 

I think it's important to test everything. Sometimes we can get stuck though, focusing all of our energies on others' errors. Rather than going on and on about how wrong others are, it seems more healthy to show why my own beliefs are right/working for me.

[TheFinalWord]

. A lot of energy is completely wasted on nit-picking insignificant nuances. And I agree with you about bashing from the pulpit...I can't stand that!

 

As individual believers, God has told us to test everything, and hold on to the good (1 Thes. 5:21). I do think that the idea that we should hope for material blessings as a sign of God's love isn't a helpful perspective for my own life. Because a lot of awful people have great riches and a lot of people with very little on this earth are saints.

 

100%! Money is not the drive for my life; its just a tool. I just think many Christians put unnecessary burdens on unbelievers: you have to believe doctrine x, y, and z immediately upon salvation or you're not a real Christian. There is great simplicity in Christ. Reminds me of Acts 15. I just wish Christians would just give people a chance to grow. lol Not everyone can handle all doctrine right away (milk and meat). What I have found for myself and others is that we have to grow into it sometimes, as they walk with the Lord and study. God will teach us, and when our hearts are open, He will show us.

 

I really liked what you said earlier too (you have a good way of showing all perspectives; a gift you have), that God can use a pastor that isn't perfect to reach a person. For example, I am sure there are pastors on TBN I would not agree with. But they also play biblical movies a lot. Maybe someone is hurting one night and comes across a movie about Jesus and learns about salvation. God can use it.

 

I am sorry but calling out charlatans who distort Christianity is not nitpicking. How can you say someone that promulgates the Oneness Doctrine and rejects the Trinity is not heretical? People like Kenneth Copeland, Kenneth Hagin, and yes, to some degree T.D. Jakes need to be held accountable. I strongly recommend reading Christianity in Crisis and Counterfeit Revival by Hank Hanegraff. Christ himself warned us to beware of wolves in sheeps clothing.

 

If you say so friend. I don't know about those people, and honestly I don't feel it is my calling to inspect these pastors and write books rebuking them. Seems there are more profitable things to be doing. To me, there's enough hate in this world. Christians should be the remedy to that, not adding to the problem. For me, I don't need to buy books that can pinpoint faults in other humans. I have plenty to work on within myself. The bible is a mirror, and I still don't quite have that log out of my eye to pull the speck of dust out of Joel Osteen's eye. Just my two cents.

 

For example, a girl I know is an unbeliever and is really having a hard time with things in her life. She does not like church and has never been into religion, but says she watches Joel Osteen. Said it makes her feel hope (ministers to her). What should I say? No, thou must turn off that channel. Joel Osteen is not correct in his doctrine of pre-destination. Of course if there is blatant heresy I would say something, but a lot of this stuff is non-essentials. Who am I? God could use it and I felt this was the case. I told her, good for you, to keep watching and pray.

 

Off topic, but I think denominations are a test. There were always different sects of Judaism (Sadducees, Pharisees, etc.). Can Christians that think differently in non-essentials get along and work together? Massive fail on our part.

[pie2]

milk and meat

 

Milk and meat...exactly!!

 

On NPR the other day, they highlighted a show called Sisterhood, and discussed how a non-traditional pastor on the show teaches his daughters how to have safe sex. Some people are upset by it. Others are attracted to the pastor's alternative style, and are hearing about Jesus, maybe for the first time. Like you said, are we really going to say "thou must turn off that channel" (that is so funny! ), just 'cause we don't 100% agree?

 

Off topic, but I think denominations are a test. There were always different sects of Judaism (Sadducees, Pharisees, etc.). Can Christians that think differently in non-essentials get along and work together? Massive fail on our part.

 

That is so true I think there are examples where churches get along, they just aren't talked about as much. There is a pretty big Seventh Day Adventist population where I live. Obviously they have different practices and ideas then mainstream Christianity. But I there are some times that differences are put aside in the name of unity

[pureinheart]

I agree.

 

What is prosperity? To me, those of us in Western societies more than meet the definition of "rich" (i.e. Internet access, roof over your head, car, health insurance, enough disposable calories to become obese in 4 weeks, nice clothes, not to mention freedoms we enjoy). Should we not pursue, say, college degrees? Is that pursing prosperity?

 

To me, I do not respect pastors that openly mock and call out other pastors/ministries. I left a church one time b/c the pastor made a weekly point to mock and bash another ministry for his heretical interpretation of the white horse in Revelation. Or the horror I like Joel Osteen. The man does not have a mean bone in his body, yet people bash him left and right. He has even said, he is learning more and improving. No mercy though, just label and bash a man that they do not even know. Judge, jury, executioner. Do any of us have a ministry that houses over 40k people? Can any of us carry that burden? No, we are not equipped. Few are. Please stop and think before judging.

 

Miriam and Aaron began to talk against Moses because of his wife, for he had married an Ethiopian. “Has the Lord spoken only through Moses?” they asked. “Hasn’t he also spoken through us?” And the Lord heard this. (Now Moses was a very humble man, more humble than anyone else on the face of the earth.) He asked the Lord, “Why have you brought this trouble on your servant? What have I done to displease you that you put the burden of all these people on me? Did I conceive all these people? Did I give them birth? Why do you tell me to carry them in my arms, as a nurse carries an infant, to the land you promised on oath to their ancestors? Where can I get meat for all these people? They keep wailing to me, ‘Give us meat to eat!’ I cannot carry all these people by myself; the burden is too heavy for me. If this is how you are going to treat me, please go ahead and kill me—if I have found favor in your eyes—and do not let me face my own ruin.”

 

JOEL OSTEEN´S ANSWER TO HIS CRITICS (Please watch the description) - YouTube

 

Christians should focus on doing something PRODUCTIVE. Last time I checked, sowing discord among brothern doesn't rank high on God's "to-do" list for believers. Instead of nitpicking over ministries and each other, I think it is more edifying to seek God's calling for your life. That is enough. Let God be God, and you be you.

 

You know TFW, once a wise individual taught that we should take care in our words concerning Gods people, he was speaking specifically about Gods teachers and bashing them.

 

Do we not understand that God IS on the throne and in control. He will deal His people, which IMO is every person on this earth (I donot wish to offend those who donot want my God, I simply believe He loves every person that has ever lived).

 

My sincere apologies to Joel of whom I said might need prayer...I'm the one that needs prayer to clean up her own backyard. I love you Joel and Victoria:)... T.D.- I love you and I'm not confused, please forgive me. Benny, you preach it Brother. To the rest, I don't know any of you all that well and how dare I make such snap uniformed judgements.

 

Thank you TFW, and I thank Jesus for you everyday! ((((((great big hugs)))))))

[pureinheart]

Well, if anyone can read this and not think that everybody is splitting hairs over semantics, then I don't know what to say.

 

It seems that in many religious circles, "rejects" and "has a slightly different understanding" are effectively the same thing, and instead of acknowledging the 99% of things they do agree on, they label each other heretics over the tiniest, most insignificant point of disagreement.

 

Wow dude, thank you...thank you for setting me straight. Naive doesn't even begin to describe me at times:mad: (am mad at myself right now)...you be the bomb QJ!

[pureinheart]

I think this article is fantastic. I'm amazed that correct biblical teaching came from a secular publication. More power to them!

 

The Worst Ideas of the Decade (washingtonpost.com)

 

Will apologise ahead of time as what I am about to say will need an apology.

 

Talk about leading people astray! OHHHHHHH how I hate my own naivety at times:mad::mad::mad::mad:

 

How DARE the Washington Post and you for bashing these people mercilessly. If God has a problem with these men of God He will deal with them.

 

Now I need to tend to my own backyard and whole lot of repenting.

[M30USA]

Will apologise ahead of time as what I am about to say will need an apology.

 

Talk about leading people astray! OHHHHHHH how I hate my own naivety at times:mad::mad::mad::mad:

 

How DARE the Washington Post and you for bashing these people mercilessly. If God has a problem with these men of God He will deal with them.

 

Now I need to tend to my own backyard and whole lot of repenting.

 

There wasn't a single personal attack made against any pastor. It's entirely directed at doctrines. I don't understand what you mean.

[OpenBook]

I'm seeing quite a few gross misinterpretations of the "pernicious doctrine" of the "prosperity gospel" (whatever that is) in this article.

• "God blesses those God favors most with material wealth."
  
• "a focus on storing up treasures on Earth as a primary goal of faithful living"
  
• "If you pray the right way, God will make you rich."
  
• "wealth is a sign of God's grace and favor"
  

In my mind, the misrepresentation itself is a "pernicious doctrine." This isn't what I'm hearing in church (or from Osteen, etc.) at all!!

 

I'm hearing about generosity in giving, and how it will come back to you (2 Corinthians 10-11 ... Luke 6:38)

 

I'm also hearing about God blessing both the righteous and the unrighteous. Not our call; it's all part of God's master plan. (Matthew 5:45)

 

My take on it all - Financial wealth is not a reliable indicator of God's favor or a person's ability to enter into the kingdom of heaven. It's all about what you DO with that wealth that matters. What's in your heart; how you regard it and use it (the wealth). That's the payload.

 

I do believe God wants us to prosper... in the right way, in His way. (Psalm 37:4 Delight yourself in the Lord, and He will give you the desires of your heart.)

[M30USA]

I'm seeing quite a few gross misinterpretations of the "pernicious doctrine" of the "prosperity gospel" (whatever that is) in this article.

• "God blesses those God favors most with material wealth."
  
• "a focus on storing up treasures on Earth as a primary goal of faithful living"
  
• "If you pray the right way, God will make you rich."
  
• "wealth is a sign of God's grace and favor"
  

In my mind, the misrepresentation itself is a "pernicious doctrine." This isn't what I'm hearing in church (or from Osteen, etc.) at all!!

 

I'm hearing about generosity in giving, and how it will come back to you (2 Corinthians 10-11 ... Luke 6:38)

 

I'm also hearing about God blessing both the righteous and the unrighteous. Not our call; it's all part of God's master plan. (Matthew 5:45)

 

My take on it all - Financial wealth is not a reliable indicator of God's favor or a person's ability to enter into the kingdom of heaven. It's all about what you DO with that wealth that matters. What's in your heart; how you regard it and use it (the wealth). That's the payload.

 

I do believe God wants us to prosper... in the right way, in His way. (Psalm 37:4 Delight yourself in the Lord, and He will give you the desires of your heart.)

 

Wow, the truth has been spoken.

 

You are right about the conflicting definition of the word "prosper". The world defines it financially and with material security; the Scriptures define it as succeeding in the ways of God, conforming more to the likeness of Jesus Christ, and investing in eternal things rather than temporal. Huge difference. It is technically possible, and quite likely according to the teachings of Jesus, to succeed in the ways of God and, as a result, experience hardship and struggle in the world.

Edited February 2, 2013 by M30USA

[pie2]

Will apologise ahead of time as what I am about to say will need an apology.

 

Talk about leading people astray! OHHHHHHH how I hate my own naivety at times:mad::mad::mad::mad:

 

How DARE the Washington Post and you for bashing these people mercilessly. If God has a problem with these men of God He will deal with them.

 

Now I need to tend to my own backyard and whole lot of repenting.

 

 

pure, I don't see any merciless bashing... Just thought we were having a discussion about doctrine, as M30 said.