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How long until the plague of religion goes away?


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strongnrelaxed

By some estimates, mankind (Homosapien) is about 100,000 years old (give or take).

 

The Bible goes back approximately 5,000 years. New Testament about 2,000, the Koran about 1,500.

 

How long do you think it will take for mankind to undo the horrible harm that has been done to mankind by the Abrahamic religions over the past few milennia?

 

I don't mean rectifying the rapes, tortures, murders, genocide, incest, and slavery. Nor the wholesale genital mutilations or witch hunts (which still go on in Africa today) nor the numerous scientists who have sacrificed their lives to speak the truth to make the world a better place - to prove that the world is NOT flat, that it is bacteria that make us ill - NOT demons, etc.

 

I mean the effects of breaking our human reason and rationality. The centuries of indoctrination of children and the fear that still makes it virtually impossible to mount a defense against this insanity?

 

I have no idea, but I have given this honest though. If it took us arguable 2 thousand years to get here (on a widescale, Christianity has to be the benchmark) will it take as long to undo these crimes?

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This is one of my longstanding gripes that I have with atheists and such. I even had these gripes when I was an atheist! That religion is a source of evil, and that seems to be a prevailing argument amongst atheists against theists, and religion.

 

Let me clear something up real quick-religion does NOT cause people to be raped, murdered, mutilated, hunted down, persecuted at all. It IS the PEOPLE within the religion that does this. Saying what you just said is tantamount to saying that "Allah" ordered a certain section of Muslims to go and attack the World Trade Centre. There's nothing in any religious text (that I know of) that would qualify as doing so.

 

There's a misunderstanding amongst people that when people do bad things in the "name of religion" that it is then the religions fault for them doing so. No. Take the Westboro Baptist Church for instance-they are a group of homophobic people who picket soldier's funerals, preaching hate. Does it say anywhere in the Bible to behave so? No. Do the majority of Christians agree with them? No, absolutely not. Yet, there's a number of people who would look at them and think that they are representing a larger section of Christianity than what they actually are.

 

People who do bad things in the name of religion would do bad things without using that name, too. The Westboro Baptist Church members would still be homophobic even if they weren't religious. They just dress their prejudice up in "religion" (or their interpretation of it) and think it makes it all OK. Religion is nothing to do with it.

 

Religion does not cause wars to happen. People do. How many non-religious people commit crimes against mankind too? Plenty. I'm not denying that war, and crimes against humanity happen in the name of religion, but I am saying that it is not at the religion's request. Christianity does not tell us to go around and picket gay bars etc, or to do bad things to people. Nor does the Koran ask people to go crash planes into high-rise buildings. It's a small subsection of extremists, who have hate in their hearts, and not the love of God, who do these things. The people who did 9/11 were psychopaths with a mission. That's scary. Would they be psychopaths without being Muslim? Yes, they'd just find another mission.

 

The OP is wrong in his initial assessment, because religion has been around for as long as mankind. But religion, and christianity in particular, has had some very nasty side effects. I honestly don't see how someone could call themself christian with that kind of history behind christianity.

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Why are you singling out Christianity OP? Religion, superstition, shamanism, druids, witchcraft have been around since day one it's just that Christianity is more organised than most and it certainly is more conquering than most.

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Religion does not cause wars to happen. People do. How many non-religious people commit crimes against mankind too? Plenty. I'm not denying that war, and crimes against humanity happen in the name of religion, but I am saying that it is not at the religion's request. Christianity does not tell us to go around and picket gay bars etc, or to do bad things to people. Nor does the Koran ask people to go crash planes into high-rise buildings. It's a small subsection of extremists, who have hate in their hearts, and not the love of God, who do these things. The people who did 9/11 were psychopaths with a mission. That's scary. Would they be psychopaths without being Muslim? Yes, they'd just find another mission.

 

While this is true, it is also true that Christianity and Islam are conquering religions and the Bible at least is a pretty combative read in places. It's naive to blame the church leaders for the crusades, if you want to convert (and both Christians and Muslims are encouraged by the religion to convert) you will encounter resistance.

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I am not super religious but atheist societies have caused just as much misery. Look at China and the Soviet Union. People just need to accept the fact that others might have different beliefs than they do.

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Is it the religion or the people doing the bad things though? It's my understanding that it's the people.

 

I'm proud to call myself a Christian. Why would anyone define themselves as British/American (whatever country you are from) given the history behind it? It's like saying a German person wouldn't call themselves German because of the atrocities in WW2, and the Holocaust. Was it Germany then, or the people within it?

 

People need to stop confusing religion and God with people. People are inherently flawed individuals, we're all broken. Some people choose to act wrongly under the "guise" of religion. The vast majority of Christians/Muslims/Hindus/Sikhs/Buddhists etc do not do bad things under the name of religion at all.

 

There is evil in the world, but this isn't done by God. It's done by man, because we were created with free will, and unfortunately, that gives all of us the choice to be good or bad, to do good and bad. Sadly for religious people, a small section of people ruin it for the rest of us trying to do good.

 

People doing bad things is not a symptom of religion. In fact, it's the direct opposite of what the Bible tells us. People doing bad things is a symptom of people making bad choices/bad people.

 

Is it? There's several parts to the Bible you know..

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Can you quote the Scripture please?

 

As you wish.

 

31:7-31:19

 

7They did battle against Midian, as the Lord had commanded Moses, and killed every male. 8They killed the kings of Midian: Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba, the five kings of Midian, in addition to others who were slain by them; and they also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. 9The Israelites took the women of Midian and their little ones captive; and they took all their cattle, their flocks, and all their goods as booty. 10All their towns where they had settled, and all their encampments, they burned, 11but they took all the spoil and all the booty, both people and animals. 12Then they brought the captives and the booty and the spoil to Moses, to Eleazar the priest, and to the congregation of the Israelites, at the camp on the plains of Moab by the Jordan at Jericho.

13 Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the congregation went to meet them outside the camp. 14Moses became angry with the officers of the army, the commanders of thousands and the commanders of hundreds, who had come from service in the war. 15Moses said to them, ‘Have you allowed all the women to live? 16These women here, on Balaam’s advice, made the Israelites act treacherously against the Lord in the affair of Peor, so that the plague came among the congregation of the Lord. 17Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known a man by sleeping with him. 18But all the young girls who have not known a man by sleeping with him, keep alive for yourselves. 19Camp outside the camp for seven days; whoever of you has killed any person or touched a corpse, purify yourselves and your captives on the third and on the seventh day.

 

 

Genocide. That's not too shabby.

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Feelin Frisky

Religion does often enable evil. It also is used as a tool by evil. To get into arguing that it's just bad people and not religion itself is similar to say guns don't kill people, people kill people. Right, well guns don't fire themselves, but their manufacture on such an industrial level reflects a resignation to powerlessness to become a better society. Religion HASN'T delivered the world from violence--it has delivered the world INTO violence many times over. And by me even saying this it may mean that I'm considered on the "bad" side of an argument with people I previously had no argument with. It is a dividing thing--it is "conditional". Now matter how one spells it out, it demands the yielding of the self in favor of acquiescence to someone else's "beliefs". That is how evil gets its foot in the door. As the famous Edmund Burke expression goes: "All that is required for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing". And yielding to blind faith on bended knee instead of getting on the ball and doing good is what it all comes down to.

 

The laws of nature and physics are not suspended to honor prayers. If there were, we would have no civilization--we'd all be still on our knees trying to influence the figment of our faith to customize our realities for us. The holocaust of the 20th century should have served as enough proof--that even the so-though chosen people could not be delivered by divinity. But there are "god industries" fighting to sell some kind of rationalization that what happened or didn't happen to them has nothing to do with you. Erm, it does. Good works should be practiced religiously, but religion itself can't disappear fast enough.

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I have no idea, but I have given this honest though. If it took us arguable 2 thousand years to get here (on a widescale, Christianity has to be the benchmark) will it take as long to undo these crimes?

 

How can you know for sure God's reign is over? If Israel is destroyed.

 

Christ was a descendant of King David...

 

"Thus says the Lord, Who gives the sun for light by day And the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night, Who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar; The Lord of hosts is His name: ‘If this fixed order departs From before Me,’ declares the Lord, ‘Then the offspring of Israel also will cease From being a nation before Me forever’ " (Jer. 31: 35,36).

 

"My covenant I will not break, nor alter the word that has gone out of My lips. Once I have sworn by My holiness; I will not lie to David: His seed shall endure forever, and his throne as the sun before Me; it shall be established forever like the moon, even like the faithful witness in the sky"

 

Hear the full promise:

http://www.hilltopbaptistnewport.net/King%20James%20Bible%20Audio/Psalm%20089.mp3

 

...

 

Thankfully, regarding Israel, even with their current trials, God has already told us how it will end:

 

http://www.hilltopbaptistnewport.net/King%20James%20Bible%20Audio/Psalm%20083.mp3

 

"Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away." --Jesus

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strongnrelaxed

Religion (all religion - I did not intend to single out Christianity) is evil. Period.

 

There are many brilliant people who have put this myth to bed, and I recommend that you consider checking them out. Before you do that though, please read your Bible/Koran/Torah first. THEN check out people like Christopher Hitchens, Christina Rad, and Richard Dawkins. Once you're done with that, you may have a new perspective.

 

I should have been more clear in my initial critique. My number one reason for coming to this conclusion is that religion asks us as humans to abandon our reason. The very thing that separates humans from animals is human reason. In order to have faith, one MUST abandon reason, because none of the Abrahamic religions make reasonable sense.

 

Once you convince people that there is an invisible man in the sky who watches over us and knows our thoughts and is all powerful and all knowing and makes magic things happen capriciously and in "mysterious ways" then you have broken the very thing that makes us human.

 

Then we wonder why we have wars, people starve, rape, murder, torture etc.

 

For the first time in history we can say these things without being murdered for it (I hope!).

 

So more and more we are going to push back against this plague. I just hope it does not take another two millennia to undo the damage to human consciousness that it took to break it.

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By the plague of religion, I can't help but assume you are primarily referring to Christianity. If that's the case, it will eventually go away. God will be the one to take it away. And this period will be the ugliest one in human history.

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The easier (and far more honest) option is to simply say "Yeah, that is pretty awful. There's no justification for it."

 

IMHO, the honest approach is to use hermeneutics and exegetical techniques to analyze the data. Taking scripture out of context is dishonest. I could use that same logic for America's choice to drop the atom bomb. We know that there was a justification for it: you may not agree with the justification, but its much deeper than just the action that was taken.

 

You claim that the Midianites and the Moabites were doing immoral things. Where, by chance, on the moral scale does genocide rank? By what measure are the Israelites "good" if they commit acts that are as bad or worse?

 

These tribes were not good, moral people. Adopting their customs was literally destroying Israel. They were involved in child sacrifice. They also spread viral disease like wild fire. The Midianites engaged in sexual orgies and worshiped the penis god Baal Peor (yeah, that's what it means) and the infection spread to over 24k Israelis. That's why the virgins were spared. Each time Israel disobeyed, the adopted the religions of these pagan tribes.

 

28 They yoked themselves to the Baal of Peor

and ate sacrifices offered to lifeless gods;

29 they aroused the Lord’s anger by their wicked deeds,

and a plague broke out among them.

30 But Phinehas stood up and intervened,

and the plague was checked.

31 This was credited to him as righteousness

for endless generations to come.

32 By the waters of Meribah they angered the Lord,

and trouble came to Moses because of them;

33 for they rebelled against the Spirit of God,

and rash words came from Moses’ lips.

 

34 They did not destroy the peoples

as the Lord had commanded them,

35 but they mingled with the nations

and adopted their customs.

36 They worshiped their idols,

which became a snare to them.

37 They sacrificed their sons

and their daughters to false gods.

38 They shed innocent blood,

the blood of their sons and daughters,

whom they sacrificed to the idols of Canaan,

and the land was desecrated by their blood.

39 They defiled themselves by what they did;

by their deeds they prostituted themselves.

Therefore the Lord was angry with his people

and abhorred his inheritance.

 

 

  • Hitler persecuted all kinds of groups besides Jews: political rivals, Gypsies, homosexuals, the physically and mentally handicapped, Slavics (who perished in greater numbers than Jews), and so on. (Incidentally, Hitler's politics were very much like the god of the Old Testament, especially in regards to its notions of the purity of a small group, and what to do about others who "threaten" this purity.)
  • The effect of the atomic bombings on Nagasaki and Hiroshima are hotly debated. Given that the Japanese navy was decimated and their ability to wage war was neutralised, a deterrant to invasion was probably not needed. Also, they could have dropped the bomb on military targets instead of civilian population centres. There definitely were other ways to end the war.

 

I don't think you meant this on purpose, but the Hitler thing is a bit much. Especially considering we're looking at the sacred text of the Jewish people.

 

This is completely self-serving, and could be used to justify absolutely anything no matter how cruel, no matter how brutal or extravagantly malevolant. Because, hey, we had no choice, right?

 

You have to realize the historical context. The bible is giving us history in the old testament about Israel. No where is it saying for modern Christians to do that.

 

There is always a choice. Especially for a god who can apparently do anything. He can stop the sun in the sky, part rivers, flood the earth, but can't think of any alternative than to order his "chosen" people (odd notion for a god whom apparently has no favourites) to commit the worst atrocities against another tribe. Odd also, for such a god to focus all this attention on one tiny desert tribe while ignoring the rest of the world.

 

Those miracles were done for Israel. Israel was to be an example for the nations. Read the accounts of those tribes and peoples that converted due to Israel's example. He did have alternatives. Quite a few times God literally waged the war himself. The red sea for example, and there are countless others. One time God literally obliterated an entire army bent on destroying Israel. Interestingly, many of these specific instances where Israel had to wage war happened b/c Israel disobeyed constantly. God's original plan was that hornets and fear to drive out the nations from before Israel. But Israel constantly rebelled (constant theme).

 

God’s Angel to Prepare the Way

 

20 “See, I am sending an angel ahead of you to guard you along the way and to bring you to the place I have prepared. 21 Pay attention to him and listen to what he says. Do not rebel against him; he will not forgive your rebellion, since my Name is in him. 22 If you listen carefully to what he says and do all that I say, I will be an enemy to your enemies and will oppose those who oppose you. 23 My angel will go ahead of you and bring you into the land of the Amorites, Hittites, Perizzites, Canaanites, Hivites and Jebusites, and I will wipe them out. 24 Do not bow down before their gods or worship them or follow their practices. You must demolish them and break their sacred stones to pieces. 25 Worship the Lord your God, and his blessing will be on your food and water. I will take away sickness from among you, 26 and none will miscarry or be barren in your land. I will give you a full life span.

27 “I will send my terror ahead of you and throw into confusion every nation you encounter. I will make all your enemies turn their backs and run. 28 I will send the hornet ahead of you to drive the Hivites, Canaanites and Hittites out of your way. 29 But I will not drive them out in a single year, because the land would become desolate and the wild animals too numerous for you. 30 Little by little I will drive them out before you, until you have increased enough to take possession of the land.

31 “I will establish your borders from the Red Sea to the Mediterranean Sea, and from the desert to the Euphrates River. I will give into your hands the people who live in the land, and you will drive them out before you. 32 Do not make a covenant with them or with their gods. 33 Do not let them live in your land or they will cause you to sin against me, because the worship of their gods will certainly be a snare to you.”

 

This might surprise you, but God will wage war for Israel again.

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As Jesus was getting beaten and mocked shortly before his crucifixion, he said something that many people don't know how to correctly interpret--but if you do, it gives you goosebumps from fear. He said, "For if men do these things when the tree is green, what will happen when it is dry?" (Luke 23:31). What he meant was that if God, in the flesh, was in their very presence and they still did these things, what kind of things would they do when all of God's people and God's spirit are removed from the earth at the end? Very scary to even consider.

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How long until the plague of religion goes away? NEVER.

 

There will always be a need for most human beings to belong. Religion is not necessarily an affinity to some invisible deity, it can also be to ideology.

 

We live in the most modern period of our time (of course) and yet, there are millions of people who believe in the most absurd, unsubstantiated, indefensible things...

 

Like PT Barnum allegedly said, "There's a sucker born every minute" or something like that...

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That's nice, but then in the next paragraph you pretty much adopt the exact same interpretation I was using. So...what was the point of this? To drop some big words?

 

It's not big words, it's basic method for interpreting text. Used in legal practice non-stop. You can't just grab one chapter out of the bible and make an entire case out of it. You realize the chapters weren't in the original text?

 

Also, this actually hinges on the incredibly dubious premise of simply accepting the slaughterer's account of history at face value.

 

That's exactly what you're doing.

 

Since we're about to discuss Hitler again, tell me, TFW, how do you think history would have been recalled, hundreds or thousands of years later, had Nazi Germany prevailed and been the ones to write the accounts? They would have looked back on the destruction of the Jews and other "inferior races" in much the same way you're doing now. They deserved it for all the wicked things they did. They were literally destroying Germany. They brought it on themselves. They were infecting Aryan purity.

 

I don't need to go generations ahead so see that is is incredibly insensitive to compare the history of the Jewish people to Hitler. That's the only connection I see. Please stop using it.

 

That was obviously not my contention: nowhere did I assert that the text was intended to justify behaviour today: I'm clearly attacking the notion that it was justified then, or ever. I also love the idea that "historical context" can be so influential as to condone genocide, especially coming from somebody who would hold to the idea of moral absolutes.

 

Yes, with all the murder, pillaging, genital mutilation, animal sacrifice, slavery and so forth. Wonderful example to the world.

 

What an absolute load of bollocks.

 

Thanks, and I was hoping to engage with you in a civil conversation. My mistake. Genital mutilation. Okay, so I guess you mean circumcision. Uh. Never mind I have church tomorrow. :bunny:

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When taken out of context, that chapter does look and sound pretty dang awful. I won't deny that. However, you have to go back to Numbers 25 to understand why God would order such a thing.

 

The Midianites and the Moabites were trying to corrupt the Israelites, plying them with sex and trying to get them to foresake their one God, in favour of their false Gods. Worshipping false idols is a big no-no in God's book.

 

Does that make it any less awful? No, but let's be honest, wars such as world war two were started over much less, and created more bloodshed, and turmoil. Hitler had no grounds for killing all of those Jews other than pure hate. And invading other countries? Well, that was just because he was a meglomaniac, who desperately sought power and world domination. God ordered a war against people who were sinning against him, corrupting and destroying his children, and worshipping false idols. He's God, He gets to decide what's just, and what isn't.

 

In that link mercy posted, the writer made a good comment about how sometimes the only way to solve something is to do something pretty atrocious. If there was another way, don't you think God would have found it? It's like Hiroshima and Nagasaki (again, borrowed from the link :o) those were absolute atrocities on humanity, committed by the US. Was there another way that would have ended the war? Probably not. So if man can call something just and necessary, why can't God? :confused:

 

That's a brief point (was it brief? :confused:) that I wanted to make. :bunny::) It's not well-made but I hope you catch my drift.

 

The other guy rang my door and asked if I had heard the words of Shimmy Shimmy the Sexy Swimmy so I killed him and everyone from his village except this pretty 13 year old girl I now use to warm my bed at night.

 

Super explanation there. I totally think the christian god sounds great now. :rolleyes: Sign me up.

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strongnrelaxed
Christina Rad is in your top 3? o_O Have you only just recently discovered Youtube atheism or something?

 

No. Just a random example. There is a large and growing list, but she is quite popular.

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strongnrelaxed

Imagine living in the dark ages when the Catholic Church essentially colluded with European aristocracies to expand. Imagine all of the mothers who lost their good sons and husbands to the marauding crusaders. All across Europe they rode in the name of the lord essentially killing anyone who didn’t “believe”. All of the best men in the villages were slaughtered, the others submitted. Fast forward a decade or so with the clergy in place with that sort of power. Imagine those women now having to pay alms and tithing to the church. Imagine them watching as the invading crusaders took their daughters as wives and bred the next generation.

Now fast forward to today. Imagine those same grieving women who watched their men die defending against this sickness. Imagine what these countless thousands (millions?) of women would think and feel to see that virtually everyone in a “free” country now “believes” in the myth du jour and gleefully abuses their children into compliance.

 

I would love to get some of today’s men and women about an hour alone in a room with those women. Imagine their torment and anguish at having to remain silent in the face of the atrocities.

If you think this is an ancient story, look to the mid east folks. The saga continues.

The staggering ignorance and arrogance (don’t these almost always show up at the same parties?) is beyond scary, it is beyond sad. It is just the way it is. I have long since stopped being upset about this.

But it comes back sometimes when I read responses like some of the above.

I have lived an awesome life because of my rebellious nature. Not all of my friends and family have fared as well. I feel so sad for the next generation. If you are 25-30 years old, you are screwed. Sorry. I did my best and I am still trying.

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strongnrelaxed
How can you know for sure God's reign is over? If Israel is destroyed.

 

Christ was a descendant of King David...

 

"Thus says the Lord, Who gives the sun for light by day And the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night, Who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar; The Lord of hosts is His name: ‘If this fixed order departs From before Me,’ declares the Lord, ‘Then the offspring of Israel also will cease From being a nation before Me forever’ " (Jer. 31: 35,36).

 

"My covenant I will not break, nor alter the word that has gone out of My lips. Once I have sworn by My holiness; I will not lie to David: His seed shall endure forever, and his throne as the sun before Me; it shall be established forever like the moon, even like the faithful witness in the sky"

 

Hear the full promise:

http://www.hilltopbaptistnewport.net/King%20James%20Bible%20Audio/Psalm%20089.mp3

 

...

 

Thankfully, regarding Israel, even with their current trials, God has already told us how it will end:

 

http://www.hilltopbaptistnewport.net/King%20James%20Bible%20Audio/Psalm%20083.mp3

 

"Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away." --Jesus

 

Wow. Perhaps you should change your name to "Final Solution"

 

Your post is completely wasted on me... and I hope every other thinking person reading it. In other words, you are literally preaching to the choir.

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strongnrelaxed
Is it the religion or the people doing the bad things though? It's my understanding that it's the people.

 

I'm proud to call myself a Christian. Why would anyone define themselves as British/American (whatever country you are from) given the history behind it? It's like saying a German person wouldn't call themselves German because of the atrocities in WW2, and the Holocaust. Was it Germany then, or the people within it?

 

People need to stop confusing religion and God with people. People are inherently flawed individuals, we're all broken. Some people choose to act wrongly under the "guise" of religion. The vast majority of Christians/Muslims/Hindus/Sikhs/Buddhists etc do not do bad things under the name of religion at all.

 

There is evil in the world, but this isn't done by God. It's done by man, because we were created with free will, and unfortunately, that gives all of us the choice to be good or bad, to do good and bad. Sadly for religious people, a small section of people ruin it for the rest of us trying to do good.

 

People doing bad things is not a symptom of religion. In fact, it's the direct opposite of what the Bible tells us. People doing bad things is a symptom of people making bad choices/bad people.

 

Most of what you say above is just factually wrong. I do not mean this in a harsh way, it just is.

 

To your analogy of Germans (which I am btw) - imagine I went around wearing a swastika patch on my jacket. Imagine how that would be received. If I were to say "hey, People need to stop confusing swastikas and nazis with people. People are inherently flawed individuals, we're all broken. Some people choose to act wrongly under the "guise" of nazi ideologies".

 

How would that sound to you? It sounds that way to me.

 

There is this insane habit of people of faith to attempt to distance themselves from the rapes, tortures, crusades, inquisitions, child molestation, wholesale genital mutilation, subjugation, and the myriad other more subtle harms of their religion. "That is not MY God" you say.

"that was a long time ago" you say. "Times were different" "we have come a long way" "that was just a few bad apples" "God is good" "that's not what it says in the bible" you say.

 

This is exactly what a delusion looks like.

 

This is unbelievable to me. I cannot understand how so many people in modern times with so much science and reason and information can still be so fooled into this.

 

This is a bad thing for humanity. And I can promise you this - the bad guys will blame this on the people. It is humanity that is evil, not the priest who is raping that poor little boy with their parent's tacit consent. Not the inquisitors who are drowning that young woman for witchcraft - it is the evil of satan that is to blame.

 

Wow.

 

Really?

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strongnrelaxed
It's not big words, it's basic method for interpreting text. Used in legal practice non-stop. You can't just grab one chapter out of the bible and make an entire case out of it. You realize the chapters weren't in the original text?

 

 

 

That's exactly what you're doing.

 

 

 

I don't need to go generations ahead so see that is is incredibly insensitive to compare the history of the Jewish people to Hitler. That's the only connection I see. Please stop using it.

 

 

 

Thanks, and I was hoping to engage with you in a civil conversation. My mistake. Genital mutilation. Okay, so I guess you mean circumcision. Uh. Never mind I have church tomorrow. :bunny:

 

FinalWord, I feel for you. You are trying to defend the indefensible. The bible is replete with horrible messages. You cannot use the Lord of the Rings books to justify the existence of Elves. Self-referential anecdotes are not proof. We are way beyond this as a society. Science is making great strides in explaining the how's and what's of our universe. They will never attempt to give us the "why's" Religion should not try either.

 

I do not need religion to be a good person. I just need my common sense and reason. In fact, this is far superior to religious indoctrination. Unless of course, one is trying to raise worker bees. Then it all makes sense.

 

There is no "rational" discussion with a religious person. There is talking and preaching and walking away frustrated.

 

I hope that when and if you come to realize that you were sold a pile of lies that you do not feel judged by atheists. I hope that you know that you are not alone even if it feels scary. They will tell you that we are the devil. They MUST say this. Think hard on this. Think hard on what you are spending your time, your money, your energy and your life on. Do what feels right to you and you will be ok. But defending the bible is not possible nor what seems to me to be the best use of your good energies.

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strongnrelaxed
When taken out of context, that chapter does look and sound pretty dang awful. I won't deny that.

 

Good. I respect that you are owning up to this one. You are one of the few religious supporters I have ever heard say this sort of thing.

 

Unfortunately you use that old "don't take it out of context" thing.

 

Imagine I said in a speech a lot of boring stuff about baking cookies and in the middle I threw in a suggestion about how to rape a duck. One listening should reasonably be surprised at such an odd reference in what should otherwise be a fun talk about cookies.

 

But the bible does this repeatedly! The book is so replete with references to rape, incest, and genocide alone that these passages could fill their own book. (Hey, that gives me an idea!)

 

So it is not only perfectly reasonable to take a "duck rape" reference out of context and criticize it, it should make one go back to my cookbooks and see what other references are in there. If one were to find my cookbooks referencing all sorts of rape, then one is completely reasonable in calling my work "rape-oriented"

 

Our basic human reason and common sense demands this of us.

 

This somehow escapes religious people. But that is the power of this sort of indoctrination. It is deep and profound, and goes back to my original question - how long will it take to undo this insanity?

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strongnrelaxed
The OP is wrong in his initial assessment, because religion has been around for as long as mankind.

 

I never said nor implied this. I am just focusing on the Abrahamic religions because they are so pervasive these days.

 

You raise a good point though - these myths are blatantly plagiarized from earlier Egyptian and Pagan traditions. It is just how religions propagate. So it is quite a valid point that religions go back as far as human history. But keep in mind that the earliest humans did not see their beliefs as religion - they saw them as basic explanations for the mysterious workings of nature. We would call this "science" in modern times.

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