andysw Posted April 4, 2008 Share Posted April 4, 2008 (edited) I'll start with a simple question, if I promise to give you a chocolate bar after an infinite amount of time will I ever give you the chocolate bar? No. Another question, could there be an infinite amount of time before right now? No, because we would never of reached this moment of time. We can conclude that time started a finite amount of time ago. Meaning, according to the bible, about 6000 years. It can be determined that time started some time ago, and before that there was no time. Scientists say that matter can't be created or destroyed. So, has matter always existed? No, because it's already determined that time didn't always exist and you can't have matter without time. Nor can you have matter without space. If you have matter where would you put it? Space And when would you put it? Time. So here's the problem, we know that there wasn't always time and thus we have to include that there wasn't always matter. Lets just say we don't know what caused matter, time and space. But what we do know is that whatever created them was immensly powerful and extremely intelligent. Edited April 4, 2008 by andysw Link to post Share on other sites
sally4sara Posted April 4, 2008 Share Posted April 4, 2008 Time did not start 6000 years ago; that has already conclusively been proven false. So we cannot say that an infinite amount of time has not proceeded humanity. Matter cannot be destroyed. So where did Earth come from. I can't say for certain because I wasn't around, but my best logical guess is it came from debris in space that gathered together in one location. If you want to believe that before 6000 years ago, time and matter didn't exist, you will have to also not believe that God always existed. If you cannot accept time as an infinite concept, how can you argue God as an infinite concept? Link to post Share on other sites
Art_Critic Posted April 4, 2008 Share Posted April 4, 2008 If time and matter didn't exist till 6000 years ago then how did the earth get to be 4.5 to 4.6 billion years old ? Link to post Share on other sites
Trialbyfire Posted April 4, 2008 Share Posted April 4, 2008 But what we do know is that whatever created them was immensly powerful and extremely intelligent. Please explain in scientific terms, how we know this assumption to be factual? Link to post Share on other sites
JamesM Posted April 4, 2008 Share Posted April 4, 2008 We can conclude that time started a finite amount of time ago. Meaning, according to the bible, about 6000 years. It can be determined that time started some time ago, and before that there was no time. Let's start here. The Bible no where states the age of the earth. It does say that God created in six days and rested on the seventh, but it does not give an age. As for the rest, I think it has been answered both ways on other threads, but I will leave that to the resident agnostics and atheists to answer. Link to post Share on other sites
twice_shy Posted April 4, 2008 Share Posted April 4, 2008 I'll start with a simple question, if I promise to give you a chocolate bar after an infinite amount of time will I ever give you the chocolate bar? No. Another question, could there be an infinite amount of time before right now? No, because we would never of reached this moment of time. We can conclude that time started a finite amount of time ago. Meaning, according to the bible, about 6000 years. It can be determined that time started some time ago, and before that there was no time. Scientists say that matter can't be created or destroyed. So, has matter always existed? No, because it's already determined that time didn't always exist and you can't have matter without time. Nor can you have matter without space. If you have matter where would you put it? Space And when would you put it? Time. So here's the problem, we know that there wasn't always time and thus we have to include that there wasn't always matter. Uh, and how do we know that? Because the bible said so? Link to post Share on other sites
PinkKittyKat Posted April 4, 2008 Share Posted April 4, 2008 We can conclude that time started a finite amount of time ago. Meaning, according to the bible, about 6000 years. It can be determined that time started some time ago, and before that there was no time. Hahahahhaahahahha! Your supposed proof for making atheists believe in god hinges it's entire concept on THE BIBLE!? HAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHHAHAHAHHAH! First, you would have to get atheists to acknowledge the bible as factual... Which you won't. LOL You're arguing in circles, mate! Link to post Share on other sites
witabix Posted April 4, 2008 Share Posted April 4, 2008 I will confine myself to the philosophy of time. Time, is a concept. Time, such as hours minutes seconds &c are a human construct to guide us. Time, as we percieve, it is the changing nature of things. We see the seasons change, night goes into day &c This change is caused by the movement of planets, stars, galaxies et al. A system will tend to go towards entropy, it is this movement towards entropy that we percieve as our 'time'. When nothing is moving, the singularity at the heart of the Big Bang theory is an example, then ther is no time. Time is not a dimesion of matter as is height, depth, breadth. It is the way in which we percieve the ever changing universe around us. To say that time is finite or infinite is to address the nature of the universe. If it is ever expanding, time is going to go on infinitely from a start point, if the universe is to collapse again into another singularlity then time is finite, that is, within our perception. I will not address the different types of infinites that exist, for that you will have to study number theory. Link to post Share on other sites
Author andysw Posted April 4, 2008 Author Share Posted April 4, 2008 Time did not start 6000 years ago; that has already conclusively been proven false. So we cannot say that an infinite amount of time has not proceeded humanity. Matter cannot be destroyed. So where did Earth come from. I can't say for certain because I wasn't around, but my best logical guess is it came from debris in space that gathered together in one location. If you want to believe that before 6000 years ago, time and matter didn't exist, you will have to also not believe that God always existed. If you cannot accept time as an infinite concept, how can you argue God as an infinite concept? Well, you have two choices (and they're both scientific and religious), you either came from nothing, or somebody created you - simple. Link to post Share on other sites
blind_otter Posted April 4, 2008 Share Posted April 4, 2008 Well, you have two choices (and they're both scientific and religious), you either came from nothing, or somebody created you - simple. Well, the sperm and the egg unite and grow to form a human being. So you came from your parents. I'm just saying. Also it is "energy cannot be created or destroyed" - not matter. Did you mean energy? It's one of the laws of thermodynamics. Link to post Share on other sites
Author andysw Posted April 4, 2008 Author Share Posted April 4, 2008 Well, the sperm and the egg unite and grow to form a human being. So you came from your parents. I'm just saying. Also it is "energy cannot be created or destroyed" - not matter. Did you mean energy? It's one of the laws of thermodynamics. I was going to edited my comment, but I ran out of time. But anyways, I was going to edited like this: either the universe created itself, or somebody did. Link to post Share on other sites
sally4sara Posted April 4, 2008 Share Posted April 4, 2008 Well, the sperm and the egg unite and grow to form a human being. So you came from your parents. I'm just saying. Also it is "energy cannot be created or destroyed" - not matter. Did you mean energy? It's one of the laws of thermodynamics. Thanks for pointing it out. I couldn't figure out how to without sounding condescending (genetic flaw:p). Link to post Share on other sites
Author andysw Posted April 4, 2008 Author Share Posted April 4, 2008 Let's start here. The Bible no where states the age of the earth. It does say that God created in six days and rested on the seventh, but it does not give an age. As for the rest, I think it has been answered both ways on other threads, but I will leave that to the resident agnostics and atheists to answer. The bible doesn't say it as that because if it did the bible would be outdated in one year. Link to post Share on other sites
blind_otter Posted April 4, 2008 Share Posted April 4, 2008 I was going to edited my comment, but I ran out of time. But anyways, I was going to edited like this: either the universe created itself, or somebody did. The universe may well have been created by some being. But you cannot take that as proof that the judeo-christian god of the bible therefore exists. Link to post Share on other sites
Author andysw Posted April 4, 2008 Author Share Posted April 4, 2008 The universe may well have been created by some being. But you cannot take that as proof that the judeo-christian god of the bible therefore exists. Well, lets take it this way, we know that energy can not be created or destroyed, so, has energy always existed? No, because we already determined that time hadn't always existed, and neither can energy. Link to post Share on other sites
PinkKittyKat Posted April 4, 2008 Share Posted April 4, 2008 Well, lets take it this way, we know that energy can not be created or destroyed, so, has energy always existed? No, because we already determined that time hadn't always existed, and neither can energy. Hahaha, YOU decided time "hasn't always existed" based on your bible book. "We" didn't "determine" anything. For your case, first you must PROVE time hasn't always existed. Link to post Share on other sites
sally4sara Posted April 4, 2008 Share Posted April 4, 2008 Well, lets take it this way, we know that energy can not be created or destroyed, so, has energy always existed? No, because we already determined that time hadn't always existed, and neither can energy. We determined nothing of the sort. You posted it, not determined it. They may well be something/someone who started the events in motion, but that someone/something has never been proven to be the god you or the bible talks about. Link to post Share on other sites
Author andysw Posted April 4, 2008 Author Share Posted April 4, 2008 (edited) Hahaha, YOU decided time "hasn't always existed" based on your bible book. "We" didn't "determine" anything. For your case, first you must PROVE time hasn't always existed. Just to clear what you just said I did not refer this from the bible because the bible does not directly say that time hadn't always existed. Even scientists agree that before the universe there was nothing (no time, etc). I don't just speak from a religious point of view I speak in both views at once. If you find a science textbook for grade 1 - 2 and turn to the page where it talks about space you'll notice that it says that before the universe existed there was literally nothing (wow, that's deep) and then suddenly everything came out form a big poof. So, okay, I explained how it's impossible the universe could've existed from literally nothing, now it's someone's turn to prove my explanation wrong. Edited April 4, 2008 by andysw Link to post Share on other sites
sally4sara Posted April 4, 2008 Share Posted April 4, 2008 Just to clear what you just said I did not refer this from the bible because the bible does not directly say that time hadn't always existed. Even scientists agree that before the universe there was nothing (no time, etc). I don't just speak from a religious point of view I speak in both views at once. If you find a science textbook for grade 1 - 2 and turn to the page where it talks about space you'll notice that it says that before the universe existed there was literally nothing (wow, that's deep) and then suddenly everything came out form a big poof. Witbix (sorry if I got your handle wrong) pointed out that the existence of time is based on our perception of how time works with motion. No motion = no time as humans recognize it. But it doesn't mean nothingness. Grade one and two would just get confused by further explanations seeing as how they are also just learning how we measure time. Link to post Share on other sites
PinkKittyKat Posted April 4, 2008 Share Posted April 4, 2008 Even scientists agree that before the universe there was nothing (no time, etc). Which scientists? What are your sources? If you find a science textbook for grade 1 - 2 and turn to the page where it talks about space you'll notice that it says that before the universe existed there was literally nothing (wow, that's deep) and then suddenly everything came out form a big poof. Grade 1-2? What the heII is wrong with you? Get some actual sources! You do realize they "dumb down" stuff for kids? A big poof? Are you for real, buddy? Maybe if you actually looked up the ACTUAL theories you'd understand them, and not spout this ignorance. For what it's worth, there are a few different theories, and "big bang" is only one of them. Link to post Share on other sites
Author andysw Posted April 4, 2008 Author Share Posted April 4, 2008 (edited) Well, witbix only pointed out the concept of time based on how we (humans) perceive it. Just because we understand time from our perspective doesn't necessarily mean it applies to everything. Bats can't see very well and that's how they perceive the world as if what the world really look like. Edited April 4, 2008 by andysw Link to post Share on other sites
blind_otter Posted April 4, 2008 Share Posted April 4, 2008 There are several theories as to what existed prior to the big bang. But they are all that - theories. Who knows what existed prior to the big bang? I mean, you are getting into advanced quantum physics here - NOT "grade 1 or 2" stuff, buddy. String theory, supersymmetric particles, 11 dimensions... Link to post Share on other sites
PinkKittyKat Posted April 4, 2008 Share Posted April 4, 2008 Well, witbix only pointed out the concept of time based on how we (humans) perceive it. Just because we understand time from our perspective doesn't necessarily mean it applies to everything. Bats can't see very well and that's how they perceive the world as if what the world really look like. You do realize that bats can actually see very well, don't you? Look it up sometime. I mean, it seems like you just blindly believe anything people tell you..... Link to post Share on other sites
sally4sara Posted April 4, 2008 Share Posted April 4, 2008 There are several theories as to what existed prior to the big bang. But they are all that - theories. Who knows what existed prior to the big bang? I mean, you are getting into advanced quantum physics here - NOT "grade 1 or 2" stuff, buddy. String theory, supersymmetric particles, 11 dimensions... A proposed 10 dimensional universe collapsing into an expanding four dimensional one and a tiny curled up 6 dimensional one...... brain melting stuff! Link to post Share on other sites
Author andysw Posted April 4, 2008 Author Share Posted April 4, 2008 There are several theories as to what existed prior to the big bang. But they are all that - theories. Who knows what existed prior to the big bang? I mean, you are getting into advanced quantum physics here - NOT "grade 1 or 2" stuff, buddy. String theory, supersymmetric particles, 11 dimensions... I was just stating that even textbooks of that level teaches children that anything can be created from nothing with no back reasoning. Don't think that I use grade 1 textbooks for my hard reasonings in advance, oh man lol:lmao: Link to post Share on other sites
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