Do you really believe in god? From agnostic.

[j_hunt_12]

Very common story. Simple question, because I've always been a "Christian." I was raised since childhood as Presbyterian (stopped going when preacher was caught with porn on church computer... haha) and was raised in a strictly religious family. But the only memories I have are of fear and insecurity of if I actually believe and feeling that it was incredibly unfair for god to force us to make that decision without any proof (there's a bunch of religions out there if you haven't noticed... I've noticed since I was about 7 years old, and always thought it unfair). I have since stopped going to church... High School, college, study abroad. In college up until now I gave up religion all together. I always try to be the best person I can. I still even follow a lot of very unlogical Christian doctrines because I think they're better for society as a whole, and still a part of me gets sick when I read about unmonitored promiscuous sex on this site, although I don't really see any thing wrong about it.

 

Reason I bring this up is because my GF is devout Orthodox and for her sake and our sake in general I'll follow her rules , and if we get married I would change to her religion and follow her religion's rules, because I don't really disagree with it and have a great respect for religion in general. Although I've never really believed and, even under that circumstance, never will, even though I've never said entirely that god doesn't exist. I always figured that if I'm more morally just than 95% of Christians and "Christians", god would be stupid to not let me in to heaven because I dont "believe." Also, I've always prayed and really dont know why.

 

My argument is 100% logical and think anyone is dillusional if they try to argue with me. But please do. It's fun and educational. I've held this view since I was a kid. I am the person that can't remember ever believing in Santa Clause even though I really wanted too as a kid. We all know that was B.S. Ohh yeah, cussing isn't a sin. It doesn't list out words you can't say in the bible;) but I'll stop when I convert..

 

just curious about what people have to say. Religious or not. And If not, Why do I pray if I dont believe?

 

peace

[Geishawhelk]

Although I've never really believed and, even under that circumstance, never will, even though I've never said entirely that god doesn't exist. I always figured that if I'm more morally just than 95% of Christians and "Christians", god would be stupid to not let me in to heaven because I dont "believe." Also, I've always prayed and really dont know why.

 

Well, here you are then. the type of Christian who is waiting for 10 suggestions, rather than commandments. Picking and choosing, and going along with stuff simply because it's easier to lie, rtaher than have any defining principles to stuck by.

OK. Understand that in order to Enter the kingdom of Heaven, you have to acknowlege God in your life, and Jesus as your Saviour, or you don't get in.

there are no provisos, no conditions, no exceptions, no allowances. You either wholeheartedly believe in God 100% and have room at the Right Hand of the Father - or you don't, and you don't.

Conversion to your GF's religion is both disrespectful and dishonest. You are basing your conversion on an emotional bond and desire, and it doesn't wash.

at one point or another, the truth will out and it will cause disharmony, because you're being a hypocrite.

 

you pray out of reinforced habit. A pick and choose psyche that offers prayers out of a sense of guilt rather than ingrained devotion.

 

 

My argument is 100% logical

Well, no it isn't because even you keep saying I don't know why, and why do i pray if I don't believe...which are both indicators of questions in your mind about your decisions, which indicate that you know some of your decisions are illogical. Or at least, questionable....

 

By the way.

I was a practising Roman Catholic for 40 years, until I changed course and took up Buddhism as my chosen path and calling.

 

And i would never compromise my ideals simply for the sake of peace and quiet.

[Trialbyfire]

And If not, Why do I pray if I dont believe?

Are you certain that you don't believe in God? Many people fall away from the Church but still retain their beliefs, to an extent. Sometimes it's difficult to break away from foundations laid during your formative years.

 

Myself, I sit primarily agnostic, sometimes atheist, sometimes believer. I also grew up with organized religion but have fallen away in disgust. While I can respect all that organized religion has done for people and continues to do, I find that it's too restrictive, with views that can greatly harm and hinder, instead of help.

 

Perhaps it's that I don't believe in extremism and have an affinity to science. I do embrace spirituality.

[Woggle]

I do believe in god but I don't follow one specific religion. I am not sure who or what god is but I do believe there is a power larger than this world. Both the religious and atheists have their extremists and I find both sides to be equally annoying.

[JamesM]

 

Reason I bring this up is because my GF is devout Orthodox and for her sake and our sake in general I'll follow her rules , and if we get married I would change to her religion and follow her religion's rules, because I don't really disagree with it and have a great respect for religion in general. Although I've never really believed and, even under that circumstance, never will, even though I've never said entirely that god doesn't exist. I always figured that if I'm more morally just than 95% of Christians and "Christians", god would be stupid to not let me in to heaven because I dont "believe." Also, I've always prayed and really dont know why.

 

My argument is 100% logical and think anyone is dillusional if they try to argue with me. But please do. It's fun and educational.

 

To the highlighted part...I have heard shades of this recently, but if you seek answers, then the idea that you are right and others are delusional could get in the way of receiving answers. Perhaps if you decide that just maybe others have some answers that may help you, then you may be helped. I can say that you will get answers from all sides, so this should help you one way or another.

 

Now when I read your post, the question that comes to me is...will it be wise if I decide my religion based on the religion of my future wife? And I say no.

 

This will become a stumbling block in your marriage at some point because unless you truly convert over, then you may at some point either be resentful or you may reject her beliefs. If you reject them and choose your own, then this may be successful if the two of you agree to disagree. (Fellow poster here, Disgracian, seems to have accomplished this quite well. I hope he weighs in on this issue.) However, in most cases, couples are not successful in doing this.

 

The biggest area that religion comes into play is when raising children. How will we raise them? While you now feel that going along with her beliefs (even though it seems you may think they are delusional) is acceptable, it may be an irritant when she decides that the children will also be brought up in this doctrine. Again, if you have converted truly to her beliefs, this will not be a problem. Otherwise, this topic will generate many conversations.

 

 

So, do I believe in a God who reigns supreme? Yes. But I think the question becomes...can you marry someone who believes differently than you do regarding God and religion?

 

I always figured that if I'm more morally just than 95% of Christians and "Christians", god would be stupid to not let me in to heaven because I dont "believe."

 

Why would a God let you live with Him forever when you don't really believe He exists? Just curious where you get these thoughts from. Why would God be stupid to not let you in Heaven? In another way of looking at it, why should your girlfriend ever consider marrying you if you told her that "I don't really love you, but you would be stupid not to marry me?" I am not trying to be critical but hopefully this may get you thinking in a different direction.

[Storyrider]

You said your girlfriend is orthodox. Orthodox what?

 

You should not convert to any religion you don't sincerely believe in. The better option would be to let her take the lead in the family spiritual life and stay nominally in your own faith.

 

More importantly, if you find religion and God oppressive, I can promise you, you will eventually feel the same way about your wife.

[j_hunt_12]

I see where a lot of where you are coming from but the thing is: (I'll just point out a few things I've noticed.. haven't figured out the quoting thing well yet)

 

First off me and GF love each other and hold the same conservative beliefs, that is why entering that relationship is not so much a problem, and she doesn't care about my religion. She has already told me this a lot of times, and we've made very sure about this. And I might switch because I really do agree strongly in her specific religion compared to the rest, could follow the orthodox doctrines and would like to believe, but when it truly comes down to it, I can't and probably never will, therefore I shouldn't convert. I understand this very well. As for children-- wow thinking way to far ahead here-- she is a Christian woman it's her job to raise them and decide how to raise them. She's already told me this flat-out, and fine by me... but way too far ahead here. By the way I post my beliefs here because I'm not too outspoken about what I believe in the real world. When people ask if I'm a Christian I shrug and say "sort of" or "I don’t know" if I know they will not try to convert me.

 

The ten commandments things... NO!! I follow the rules most main Christian denominations have agreed to follow according to there religious views, in general, I will not say I'm better than the majority of serious Christians but I'm up there as far as how I act and behave. And we all do leave out a few rules like those parts of the bible that support institutions of slavery and so on... But there are many parts of the bible that ALL Christians chose to ignore and yes I HATE this, I hated this as a kid, but eventually came to the logical conclusion that man wrote the bible therefore it is flawed, and yes I know saying this is a huge sin.

 

Geishahalk... I said I'm a "Christian" in quotation marks because I accept that I am not one.

 

Unfortunately, I don't really believe in god in general so switching to a Buddhism is definitely far beyond my ability (as far as religion goes: Buddhist gods, Buddhist hell yes there is Buddhist hell, reincarnation). I really dont see how anyone can grow up with one set of beliefs and then honestly change mid-life. You are either set in your beliefs enough in early childhood to believe something or not. However, deciding to follow the general spiritual practices that Buddhist abide by is a different story and I have a tremendous deal of respect for there religious practices as my brother follows many Buddhist practices. But I would not actually try to follow Buddhism devoutly because like the bible the rules are loose and the actual beliefs are far from what I would ever want to believe.

 

As far as the 100% correct thing. Your right, a little wrong of me to say that. Sorry. But I feel very few people actually believe in god even those that attend church regularly.

 

"I do believe in god but I don't follow one specific religion. I am not sure who or what god is but I do believe there is a power larger than this world. Both the religious and atheists have their extremists and I find both sides to be equally annoying"

 

Honestly, I switched to the "believe in god, in general" for a large part of my life and find that to be a very logical way to go, but I think that is so unstructured it's not a really good way to structure your life, although I still kind of like that option. Like most college students, I agreed that the bible has too many contradictions and too many ambiguities to follow religiously, but recently I've found that my values that I've believed in from childhood and from my own personal decisions throughout life are much more closely alligned to those of stricter Christianity. Recently I've had (ok a little more of my story) a young priest that I'm very good friends with try to convert me to orthodoxy. I would very much like to just say ""OK" I'll join your religion... why not? I already follow it better than most Christians", but the thing is I don't truly, honestly, believe, nor can I just make myself believe from nowhere, but that doesn't stop people from trying to convert you. IT'S WRONG. Do missionaries actually believe that all of the people they "convert" actually have the slightest understanding of what they are actually doing? It's just strange to me.

 

I've always excepted that I would believe and start going to church again after I was out of it for a few years, but now I can't bring myself to do it. It would just be wrong to change to something you really don't believe.

 

Again, sorry for that 100% percent thing... my bad. I can see why you could believe devoutly in what you do.

 

Ahh yes... very old argument sorry... but if a man spends his whole life raping and murdering then on the last day of his life converts he goes to heaven... A man that spends his whole life doing good and then goes to hell because he never believed. Bad policy i think. And yes I know: "we are all sinners in gods eyes and true salvation is submission to God" lets leave that argument there we'll never get any where.

 

Praying- I guess I find it as more of meditation than anything else.

 

So consensus is... don't convert... thanks

[j_hunt_12]

wow that was longer than i wanted it to be... thanks for the responses

[Storyrider]

Just keep in mind there are more issues than just how to raise the kids.

When your kids are baptized and go through other rituals (first communion maybe?) How will you answer when they ask what you believe? Will you lie? Will you tell them the truth about not believing in what they're being taught? How will you justify teaching them something you believe is false? If they are raised orthodox, how will you feel about them moving farther and farther away from you spiritually as they embrace their faith? How will you feel about being the spiritual/religious outsider in your immediate family?

 

What about birth control in between and when you're done having kids?

These are all problems I've had to deal with.

[j_hunt_12]

so early... ahhhhhh. This is like 7 years from now. She's ok with birth control before and after kids, but after marriage of course... It's not catholicism. I would say I believe in god for my children's sake then later on let them know how I honestly felt... This is how my father did it with me (he is not such a believer, but, like I said, I still grew up in a very religious environment.. thanks to mom:o) I really do LIKE christianity in general. Having children believe it would be fine with me. My father wanted me to believe for my sake and so that we could have something to believe as we grew up and have moral backing. When I questioned him he would give me the "what do you truly believe in your heart... blah blah blah... it's not about what I believe... go talk to mom" granted he did go to church every Sunday until we were in high school. It's a very common system where I grew up. How'd you work it out?

Specifically Armenian Orthodox Christian, but Orthodox is general enough usually

Edited January 8, 2008 by j_hunt_12

[JamesM]

so early... ahhhhhh. This is like 7 years from now.

 

One thing I never gave much thought to was children. It happens quicker than you think.

[j_hunt_12]

Now you're just trying to scare me...lol.. Bychance if we marry it will be at least 2.5 years from now... complicated.. As ridiculous as it is, we've already talk about children and the big points of compatibility... and it will be, at very least, 6 years, but yeah that is kind of soon... ehh...

 

Question still up...

Edited January 8, 2008 by j_hunt_12

[Storyrider]

I'm a lukewarm Jew (grew up in a secular household where Judaism was more of a social framework. This is very common in some branches of Judaism). I married an orthodox Catholic guy. I became more of a believer, but remained a mostly non-practicing Jew.

 

My kids are Catholic with Jewish undertones. Surprisingly, how to raise the kids has not been the main issue, although I do think the differences make me feel left out sometimes. Other times I disagree with the level of orthodoxy he expects from the kids. At his insistence, my older daughter (9) went to Christmas Mass on Tues 25, Sunday Mass on the 30th, and again on the 1st, which is a holy day.

 

The main problem areas have been sex and birth control, especially now that we're done having children.

 

My H has only become more orthodox over the years. As this has happened, I have gradually become more and more uncomfortable with following a parallel course. I was travelling alongside him, if you will, as much as a Jew could do that. He is now veering pretty far to the right, while I am probably veering slightly to the left as I develop my own theological beliefs independent of his. Aspects of his religious conservatism have pushed me away, I'm afraid.

 

Don't know if that helps you at all...if not, well, thanks for listening.

[SunnySideUp]

My husband is atheist and I guess if I had to label myself I would say I'm a non-denominational, spiritual person. I've thought about the issues of us being so different, but for the most part we don't discuss our spiritual beliefs, or non-beliefs in my husbands case. We both feel that religion and spirituality are so personal and different for every person that there's no need to argue about what's the correct view. We do both agree that organized religion is not for us, which I think is what you're saying you've decided upon. I have thought about the issue of how we'll raise our son and any future children, and I just figure our son will get a different story depending on who he goes to for answers, thereby learning that different people interpret the world differently.

[Storyrider]

Hope you don't mind me adding this, as it is on my mind and seems relevant. Last night H and I were having a serious talk (kind of rare these days with two young kids). He was remembering that several of his friends warned him it seemed a very odd choice for him to marry a Jewish girl, given the centrality of Christianity to his life and being.

 

At the time and all along as we planned our marriage, he said, "I feel this is what God is telling me to do. I have faith that He will some how guide us through this." He convinced me of this. He never assumed I would convert, just that God would handle it.

 

Fast forward 15 years. Christ is the driving force behind, and the most central thing about my husband's core being. And he married someone who could never embrace that aspect of him.

 

??

[quankanne]

especially if you're practicing like mad bunnies!

 

And I might switch because I really do agree strongly in her specific religion compared to the rest, could follow the orthodox doctrines and would like to believe, but when it truly comes down to it, I can't and probably never will, therefore I shouldn't convert. I understand this very well. As for children-- wow thinking way to far ahead here-- she is a Christian woman it's her job to raise them and decide how to raise them. She's already told me this flat-out, and fine by me... but way too far ahead here. By the way I post my beliefs here because I'm not too outspoken about what I believe in the real world. When people ask if I'm a Christian I shrug and say "sort of" or "I don’t know" if I know they will not try to convert me.

 

oh, this is like having a conversation with my darling husband. When we first talked about marriage, the first thing that came out of his mouth was "You can raise them Catholic, I don't have a problem with that." Because even though he's adamant about remaining Episcopalian, there's no way in hell he's gonna darken the doorstep of that church because it falls outside his comfort zone. And on a good day I can see that he believes in God and in Jesus; on a bad day, he's raging against authority – again depending on what affects his comfort zone.

 

and most of us believers are like that ("cafeteria Catholics" in my religion's vernacular – picking and choosing what part of faith we embrace, with the rest falling by the wayside because it doesn't suit our needs). However, there comes a point where your beliefs are tested and you seriously look at what you believe in, and to what degree. My guess is that you have yet to reach that point of epiphany because of your initial posts.

 

as for marrying someone with a strong faith – well, don't be surprised if you're strongly affected by it. One of the nicest things that my husband has ever said was that if we ever had kids, he'd want them to be just like my goddaughters, and I pointed out that their parents put a lot of work into raising them with a strong faith background. And he agreed, because he had visible proof in the form of those three girls (now all grown up).

 

I've also noticed that he seems to identify himself as Catholic, though he's said he has no plans to convert. See, my thought is that people who are in situations like this "soak up" their partners' belief systems and pretty much adopt them because they find much that they agree with. And I imagine that the longer you and she remain together, this is what's going to happen with you because she's modeling her faith for you. Evangelization takes place on many different levels, esp. within a relationship.

[Storyrider]

See, my thought is that people who are in situations like this "soak up" their partners' belief systems and pretty much adopt them because they find much that they agree with. And I imagine that the longer you and she remain together, this is what's going to happen with you because she's modeling her faith for you. Evangelization takes place on many different levels, esp. within a relationship.

 

Quank, your situation with trying to blend Episcopalian with Catholic beliefs is not so difficult. Granted, there are some very important doctrinal differences, and there's the Pope, but the practice in both religions is so very, very similar.

 

However, what you just wrote above would be a very dangerous assumption in some cases.

[quankanne]

Christ is the driving force behind, and the most central thing about my husband's core being. And he married someone who could never embrace that aspect of him.

 

ah, but there is something the two of you have in common: Even though he was the Messiah, Jesus was still Jewish, and followed those customs. Heck, even if you look at aspects of Catholic tradition, you'll see that they're rooted in Hebrew tradition: The blessing of the table, the purification ritual, etc. And I think we as Catholics need to go back to our roots every so often to see how our faith formed, and why the Jewish faith is so instrumental to the very people we are. Because we cannot be Christian if we ignore our Jewish/Hebrew beginnings.

 

my brother's ex-wife remarried a Jewish man and converted from Christianity to his faith, and seems much more grounded in her spirituality. Because she says that even though everyone talked about being Christian, no one felt it necessary to practice the charity associated with Christianity. At least among her family she didn't experience that ...

 

long story short, my niece is being raised Jewish, and will be allowed to choose what faith she wants to practice when she's a teenager. One of her mother's uncles, a devout Christian, was troubled by the news, but I pointed out to him that our niece is getting the best of both worlds because she's learning about her Christian roots as she learns about Judaism. Not sure if he's in agreement about this, but I'll stand by my belief as far as the kid is concerned!

[quankanne]

The main problem areas have been sex and birth control, especially now that we're done having children.

 

look into NFP – it's cheap, the Church approves of it and there's a fantastic support group that comes with it. And it's not undependable the way the rhythm method of the 50s was.

[quankanne]

Quank, your situation with trying to blend Episcopalian with Catholic beliefs is not so difficult. … However, what you just wrote above would be a very dangerous assumption in some cases.

 

well, let's just say that I'm having to work on him from the heathen end of things, not the Episcopal end :laugh:

 

when you say dangerous assumption about modeling faith, is that because one person expects the other person to conform? Or because if there's no middle ground they can agree upon, there's a chance for rabid faith to come into play?

[Tony T]

Quank, your situation with trying to blend Episcopalian with Catholic beliefs is not so difficult. … However, what you just wrote above would be a very dangerous assumption in some cases.

 

well, let's just say that I'm having to work on him from the heathen end of things, not the Episcopal end :laugh:

 

when you say dangerous assumption about modeling faith, is that because one person expects the other person to conform? Or because if there's no middle ground they can agree upon, there's a chance for rabid faith to come into play?

 

I don't think God or anybody else really cares whether or not I believe in Him. However, I've always been concerned that God believes in Me!!!

[Storyrider]

when you say dangerous assumption about modeling faith, is that because one person expects the other person to conform? Or because if there's no middle ground they can agree upon, there's a chance for rabid faith to come into play?

 

Well, in my case there is only so far I can open up, in allowing what he is to wash over me and soak in.

 

I agree with everything you wrote about common roots between Judaism and Catholicism. We have tried to locate and maximize every commonality we can possibly find.

 

But there is one huge glaring difference (and others as a direct result). There are times when I'm convinced that it is true and he is right. At those times it is even scarier for me to contemplate letting that "wash over me". If I stated how strongly I feel, you would think I was being melodramatic. I feel like I have to protect myself from it. It is so hard to explain.

[Rooster_DAR]

Do you really believe in god?

 

 

My answer to your original question above is no, at least not in the traditional sense most of us were brought up believe. I'm not sure of your age but I found myself in the same beliefs you are having in my mid 20's and eventually I deduced for myself through asking the same questions your asking, many things did not make sense and I could not stand back and believe blind faith.

 

Anyway, my G/F now is very religious and through many hard fought arguments we try not to bring up either of our beliefs to each other. I do feel though that somewhere down the road this this going to be a crucial part of what makes or breaks our relationship. It's probably not going to work unless both parties can find a way to live peacefully with their beliefs, but then the next problem is raising the children.

 

You will inevitably decide for yourself what your core beliefs should be, and nobody can force you to believe otherwise. Take your time and research a little more, perhaps more information and facts will steer you where you need to go.

 

Cheers!

[Trialbyfire]

This may sound strange coming from a part-time agnostic, sometime atheist, sometime believer...okay, one of the unfaithful...but when I do have a child(ren), I feel some exposure to organized religion is important, albeit not necessarily, necessary.

 

It didn't harm me as a child/teenager, if anything, it gave me the feeling of community and a sense of belonging to something much larger than "I".

 

I do feel it was the start of my path and need towards spirituality.

[HokeyReligions]

Dig back into the Spirituality section of this site and look for some threads especially with conversations with Quankanne and myself.

 

I'm not trying to brag - but I've participated in some very interesting threads over the past few years here.

 

I was a practicing Agnostic for many, Many years. I openly said I did not believe in God and gave some responses and posts that were, I thought, simple and easy to follow and understand. It would take me reams here to restate my view point.

 

I understand being raised in a Christian household/atmosphere and I understand what you are saying about never really believing because there is no empirical proof of God's existence. There is no empirical proof that God does not exist either. Belief is a decision you make based on your experiences and what you have learned.

 

A long series of events and research - over 30 years worth of experiences - culminated last November in my realizing that some type of God exists. Whether it is the Christian God I was brought up with, or an unidentified / undientifiable God that is a composite of many beliefs I don't know. I use the name "God" to describe only a being greater than we human's can ever be. Call it super intellegince, or divine, or whatever - but a being that was at the beginning of life as we know it and our limited history tells us.

 

I probably never will know for certain because my POV is that it was fallible humans who wrote the scriptures based on their social interpretations of the time; and their own environments. People have spread far and wide and led to so much cross-over and blending of ideas and view points that teachings in all religions have undergone and are still undergoing so much scrutiny and comparison that many of the actual events these stories and teaching are based on are lost or distorted far from their original intent.

 

What I used to attribute to human nature - species instinct and development - I now believe must have originated from God. I won't quote scripture because I don't understand it all myself and will do what others do - put my own spin or interpretation on it and you'll get that from others.

 

What I do KNOW in my own heart or soul is that there is room for evolution and creation and that as a race now we will never be able to satisfy everyone's desire to have the absolute facts. Life is not absolute, only death is and none of us can proove what happens after this life ends. But for life to have happened at all, other things were in place before. Our bodies, all living bodies, may have begun with an a spark. Was that spark accidental or by design? Just because neither I, nor any of the 'great thinkers' of our species can explain it does not mean an answer does not exist - it just means we as a species are not fully capable of grasping it - no matter how good the science or how great the equasion we use.

 

It's not rocket science - that is less than a bug's understanding of the mechanics and psyics of life. If one agrees with the science that tells us the earth is billions of years old and that humans have been here less than a million of those years than it stands to reason that we are in our own infancy of understanding and realization.

 

Belief and faith are far too individual to be determined by others. Prayer is unique and if one believes in God, and prayers are not answered then the believer must determine is the one doing the praying who is flawed, not the one who listens (God). When I still claimed to be Agnostic I prayed a lot for God to take my mother and end her suffering. Mom prayed for strength to endure most of the time, except when her pain was at its worst, and then she would recant that when she felt a little better. I don't know why she suffered - I will never know. But even her prayers and faith did not convince me.

 

Even when I had a near death experience and felt that I was outside my body, in a soft white light, feeling no pain and no sadness - even when I heard the doctor tell my husband they didn't know if I could be saved - I thought it was the brain - chemical and electrical impulses that science is still stumbling to explain. Others in those situations will grasp onto God and that is all the explanation they require to solidify their belief. That is a Human response - human nature. Animals could experience the same thing, but we don't know.

 

There has been just too many things through human history for beliefs to have lasted so long and to continuously gain followers an believers for it to be random patterns in science.

 

I saw the Lucy exhibit last year. Lucy is reportedly the oldest skeleton of a homind - mankinds first known step on the evolutionary path. At the time I saw her I was Agnostic - but I was thinking about God and trying to rectify in my own mind how that link could be true when the Bible tells us otherwise. Someone there made a statement about science being wrong because God exists. They said it in such a way that it was clear there was no room in this person's mind that the two could exist. I looked at her and said "If God made the word and all life on it, then God made Lucy too didn't He?" She had no answer, of course. But it made me think - what the Bible and Koran and all the other ancient writings and teachings have in common is not just God - but that they were put down in a way to preserve the stories by MAN. God would have been present at the beginning - before human's could communicate like we do and before we could even write or tell stories.

 

There are many guesses and theories out there. I'm lookiing at some that say the Bible says we were created in God's image. We take that as being human in form. But perhaps God's image is simply blood, and heart, and brain, and generally mammal. That all life was created and evolved before God put into hominids a soul or spirit - not instinct, but spirit. And it was our own evolutionery path that led us to develop these things afterward. Including our own morals. Its interesting to think about that and try to figure out the specifics based on the science we have today - including social history of humans.

 

Well, this is longer than I had wanted it to be, but the bottom line is that it's up to you to believe and to interpret your life and experiences and learnings and fit them into your own point of view. You can pray or talk to religious leaders and teachers and also look to the sciences and try to mesh them together - or use one to rule out the other if you so desire. What influences you will be different from what influences me or anyone else, and we each never know what will be a turning point in our lives and beliefs. The turning point for me came from two stray dogs I picked up last October. When it hit me that I was wrong it made me look back over my whole life and I saw the lessons that led to my understanding.

 

Good luck in your journey. Be honest with yourself and your girlfriend. Don't be too hasty in your conclusions - the great thing about being Agnostic is that the one thing you do know is that you could be wrong!