Answered Prayer

[Moai]

I recently read a post by another member about how excited she was that a prayer of hers was answered and how great god is, and how he showers us with blessings. I don't want to hijack that thread so I am starting this one. I intend to illustrate some of the fallacies and downright offensive beliefs that are held by those who accept things on no evidence. In this first installment, I am going to focus on prayer.

 

I have heard many believers say that they have prayers answered all the time. Examples they give are things like finding lost keys, or their lost dog, or their wallet, or a family member changing a small aspect of their behavior. All of these things are supposed to demonstrate god's "awesome" power.

 

But is it really that awesome? If you look at the results, the instances mention conform EXACTLY to what we would expect through probability. Is finding one's keys or dog really that miraculous? I think not. I find things I lose all the time, and I never pray to find them.

 

Also, there is a really offensive component to such statements. God is great, and helped me find my keys, but he did nothing to help that poor woman with breast cancer, or the starving in Africa, or the child with leukemia. They believe the same, they pray to the same god for help, and yet he does nothing. How can someone get excited and be full of praise for making my dad stop biting his fingernails, but not think of the suffering and dying in their midst? I would find it difficult to look at a dying child and tell them that prayer will help them, give them a lame example like finding my dog as evidence.

 

 

The simple fact is that no prayer is EVER answered. If you pray for something that goes against the laws of physics or outside of the norms of probability god remains silent.

 

I know that is because god does not exist.

 

I look forward to fellow members responses to this first installment.

[norajane]

I've concluded that it is not god, but a believers faith in that god that makes the difference in a person's life. So, no, maybe it wasn't god that answered a person's prayer, but the faith of the person praying that helped him in making some sense of his world.

 

That said, I get your point about answered prayers and not answered prayers. I wish people would just believe what they want without feeling the need to go around telling other people about their religion or the power of prayer or what they should or shouldn't be believing or doing spiritually. And I guess I have to take my own advice and not feel the need to go around telling people whether they should or shouldn't pray, or whether to believe in prayer or not.

[Moai]

I've concluded that it is not god, but a believers faith in that god that makes the difference in a person's life. So, no, maybe it wasn't god that answered a person's prayer, but the faith of the person praying that helped him in making some sense of his world.

 

Certainly beliefs can shape the way someone sees the world. And while these beliefs may make one feel good, that in itself is not enough reason to tolerate them.

 

I believe that there is oil in my backyard. There is so much oil there that I'll be rich beyond measure when I strike it. That belief really makes me feel good. It is delusional and demonstrably false, but it makes me feel good, so what's the big deal?

 

That said, I get your point about answered prayers and not answered prayers. I wish people would just believe what they want without feeling the need to go around telling other people about their religion or the power of prayer or what they should or shouldn't be believing or doing spiritually. And I guess I have to take my own advice and not feel the need to go around telling people whether they should or shouldn't pray, or whether to believe in prayer or not.

 

Beliefs do not exist in a vacuum. If you believe that the human soul enters at the moment of conception, then abortion is murder, and stem-cell research is an abomination. People who believe more stridently blow up clinics and research facilities.

 

Spirituality and religion are very separate things.

 

Why not tell people about fallacious reasoning? For many, god-belief is somewhat benign, but for most it is actually dangerous and effects everyone, not just the believer. To sit back and say nothing is to grant it tacit approval. It is reaching the point when we will destroy ourselves unless we throw off the shackles of beliefs that are 2,000 years old and for which there is no evidence.

[lonelybird]

Not only one prayer, but many were answered, Praise God:love:

 

I want to mention the *perspective* here. Through our carnal eyes, some things may look bad and undesirable, but through God's perspective, those things may mean good. When we seek satisfying our earthly needs, wrapped up with earthly worries, while God is considering saving souls. From God's perspective soul is important, from carnal perspective they don't think soul is eternal, just think of flesh which will rot in the end

 

Also such as *patience*. We think that wait for 3 months or years is patient, but in God's eyes, it is really just blink of eyes. When you watch the ant, you will know what I mean. One meter means a veeeeeeery long distance for an ant, but nothing for us human being. The same thing when God looks at us.

 

One life died, but because of that God will use it to save many souls which is eternal. Can an ant understand WHO human being is? NO. Can an ant judge human being because it don't understand us? NO

[sb129]

I've concluded that it is not god, but a believers faith in that god that makes the difference in a person's life. So, no, maybe it wasn't god that answered a person's prayer, but the faith of the person praying that helped him in making some sense of his world.

 

That said, I get your point about answered prayers and not answered prayers. I wish people would just believe what they want without feeling the need to go around telling other people about their religion or the power of prayer or what they should or shouldn't be believing or doing spiritually. And I guess I have to take my own advice and not feel the need to go around telling people whether they should or shouldn't pray, or whether to believe in prayer or not.

 

i agree with that NJ. Its up to people how they live their lives. But I don't like being told that I SHOULD pray, or that people pray for me. This about sums up how I feel about prayer. Not my words, but good all the same.

 

 

"If someone could, under scientific scrutiny, really give an unequivocal demonstration of prayer they would be the discoverer of a totally new principle unknown to physical science. The discoverer of the new energy that links you mind to an action (be it a healing power, or simply the ability to discover the location of your keys) deserves a Nobel prize and would probably get one. If you are in possession of this revolutionary secret of science, why not prove it and be hailed as the new Newton? Of course, we know the answer. You can't do it. Your excuse will be "God doesnt work in that way".

[Ariadne]

Hi,

 

I have heard many believers say that they have prayers answered all the time...there is a really offensive component to such statements

 

So if I concentrate really hard and make the leaf of the tree fall you would be offended with me too because I don't cure aids?

 

If people want to believe their prayers are answered I have no problem with that.

 

Besides, who are you to know their prayers are not answered anyway? Maybe they are.

 

Ariadne

[Diamonds&Rust]

Also, there is a really offensive component to such statements. God is great, and helped me find my keys, but he did nothing to help that poor woman with breast cancer, or the starving in Africa, or the child with leukemia.

Uh... that is how your attempt at illustrating fallacy? A giant straw man?

 

In attempting to describe how prayer is ineffective, you've only given partial reasoning to why you don't believe in prayer, which is no different than people who've found their dog.

 

There are often scientific studies done to test the power of prayer in surgery patients, and much to the dismay of interested scientists, patients who had random participants pray for them consistently seem to do better. But such research is misleading, because it approaches the idea of prayer from a completely wrong direction (like you) -- prayer is not a superpower, it's a way to connect with (or pretend to connect with, if you're one of those people into framing debates) something larger than yourself and view a situation from such a context.

 

Believe it or not, there are times in many people's lives where conscious, rational thought (the "foreground" of our mind) is not the ultimate reality, but merely a subtle backdrop during which something much more compelling takes over.

 

People who believe more stridently blow up clinics and research facilities.

Was it a joke when you said you were clearing up all the fallacies? Was that irony?

[amaysngrace]

Moai, I have complete and total faith in the Lord. It's a belief that God exists but I find a peaceful calm from believing...so it works for me.

 

I cannot make you believe any more than you can convince me not to.

 

But here is an example of how having faith works for me:

 

My sister was sick with cancer for nine years. I use to pray for her and my children prayed for her too. For every surgery that she came out of we thanked God. I use to pray for her to get better. I just wanted her to be like she use to be.

 

But there came a time (about six months before she passed away) when I stopped praying for her to get well. Instead I prayed for God to take her. To stop her suffering. It's what she wanted and instead of being selfish I learned to want that for her too. I stopped praying for the miracle and instead just wished that He would take her too. To stop her suffering.

 

So if you see it from my POV, God didn't answer my first prayer of making her better. He did answer my second one when He took her though. When she died I wasn't distraught that her life had ended but thankful. Although I was sad but I think all of us are sad when we lose a loved one. But I wasn't angry as I have seen so many become when death occurs. Instead I had a peaceful calmness in her passing.

 

And I can only attribute that to my faith. I have seen others at funerals who become angry with God for taking their loved ones. They rarely call upon God or take the time to thank Him but blame Him when their lives are a mess.

 

I don't know why my sister had to suffer the way she did. I really wish her life could've lasted longer and it didn't go the way it did. But I do believe it went exactly according to plan...God's plan.

[sb129]

There are often scientific studies done to test the power of prayer in surgery patients, and much to the dismay of interested scientists, patients who had random participants pray for them consistently seem to do better. But such research is misleading, because it approaches the idea of prayer from a completely wrong direction (like you) -- prayer is not a superpower, it's a way to connect with (or pretend to connect with, if you're one of those people into framing debates) something larger than yourself and view a situation from such a context.

 

Ever heard of something called the "placebo effect"?

 

I have absolutely no problem with people praying for themselves. I don't believe in it, but who am I to tell them how to live their lives if they derive comfort from it.

 

What I DO have a problem with is someone telling me that prayer will work for me, and I should try it sometime. I don't want to. And I HATE people offering to pray FOR me. I find it insulting and rude. I don't offer to slay a virgin for them.

[sb129]

OUt of interest D&R, who funded the research you are talking about?

[ilmw]

Uh... that is how your attempt at illustrating fallacy? A giant straw man?

 

In attempting to describe how prayer is ineffective, you've only given partial reasoning to why you don't believe in prayer, which is no different than people who've found their dog.

 

There are often scientific studies done to test the power of prayer in surgery patients, and much to the dismay of interested scientists, patients who had random participants pray for them consistently seem to do better. But such research is misleading, because it approaches the idea of prayer from a completely wrong direction (like you) -- prayer is not a superpower, it's a way to connect with (or pretend to connect with, if you're one of those people into framing debates) something larger than yourself and view a situation from such a context.

 

Believe it or not, there are times in many people's lives where conscious, rational thought (the "foreground" of our mind) is not the ultimate reality, but merely a subtle backdrop during which something much more compelling takes over.

 

Was it a joke when you said you were clearing up all the fallacies? Was that irony?

 

I have heard stories of soldiers on the battle front...who had been wounded..

 

1) Soldier.. has limb blown off.. losses lots of blood... very good chance of not making it. He tells the medics... I"m gonna live... and he does.

 

2) Another soldier... has a finger blown off.... he screams to the medics... "I'm gonna die" and does...

 

I have heard stories many times... probably the same ones..

 

But... it illustrates... that faith.. (not just religious faith) can make the difference.

 

Now I do believe in god... Never did before... I found a sense of well being... and finally some peace inside myself.. that I never have had before... I do not talk to anyone about it... it is for me... and it real for me.

 

I don't like organised religion... but having some form of faith... can't be a bad thing.

 

I do agree though... that it is wrong.. to shove your religion down others throats... whether it be Christian.... Jewish.... or Muslim.

 

Religious differences of opinions... has caused A LOT of souls to go to their respective (Heaven) in a not so peaceful way...

[sb129]

Good post Ilmw.

[Moai]

Not only one prayer, but many were answered, Praise God:love:

 

I want to mention the *perspective* here. Through our carnal eyes, some things may look bad and undesirable, but through God's perspective, those things may mean good. When we seek satisfying our earthly needs, wrapped up with earthly worries, while God is considering saving souls. From God's perspective soul is important, from carnal perspective they don't think soul is eternal, just think of flesh which will rot in the end

 

Oh, ok. Let me get this straight: I pray for my grandma to make cookies today, and she does, and that helps win souls. But helping th kid with Down's Syndrome would be helping in an earthly worry, and wouldn't save any souls. Puhleeeze.

 

No offense, but your father giving up whatever bad habit bothered YOU was just about as earthly a worry as you can get. How many souls would god save if he cured just one leukemia victim?

 

It isn't about saving souls, it is about confirmation bias.

 

Also such as *patience*. We think that wait for 3 months or years is patient, but in God's eyes, it is really just blink of eyes. When you watch the ant, you will know what I mean. One meter means a veeeeeeery long distance for an ant, but nothing for us human being. The same thing when God looks at us.

 

Really? Where in the Bible does it say that? I'll answer that for you---it doesn't say that in the Bible. The above is what is known as an ad hoc explanation. In 100 years when we may have a cure for leukemia, it was al god's idea and we should praise him--even though he is omnipotent and he could cure it now?

 

One life died, but because of that God will use it to save many souls which is eternal. Can an ant understand WHO human being is? NO. Can an ant judge human being because it don't understand us? NO

 

What? God lets children die to save souls? Souls that he damns in the first place because of the bizarre concept of "sin". And if we can't understand god, why worship him? Beyond that, we have a book (more than one, sadly) that god wrote that is supposed to help us understand him don't we? And that book says prayer can move mountains, and that if two believers ask it shall be granted. This is demonstrably false, and that's why believers use explanations like yours above.

[Moai]

Hi,

 

I have heard many believers say that they have prayers answered all the time...there is a really offensive component to such statements

 

So if I concentrate really hard and make the leaf of the tree fall you would be offended with me too because I don't cure aids?

 

Well, if you believe that you can make leaves fall from trees with your mind you have bigger problems than me being mad at you.

 

And it isn't that it makes me mad, it is dangerous. People have taken family members off of life support or medication to demonstrate their faith in prayer, only to have that family member die.

 

If people want to believe their prayers are answered I have no problem with that.

 

See above.

 

Besides, who are you to know their prayers are not answered anyway? Maybe they are.

 

Ariadne

 

Easy. Pray for something we would consider impossible. The Bible says that all prayers are answered in the affirmative, and that prayer moves mountains. Literally. Try it and see if it works.

[ilmw]

Oh, ok. Let me get this straight: I pray for my grandma to make cookies today, and she does, and that helps win souls. But helping th kid with Down's Syndrome would be helping in an earthly worry, and wouldn't save any souls. Puhleeeze.

 

Ok...when I read this... :lmao::lmao:... it struck me as funny.

 

Does that make me a bad man......:laugh:

[sb129]

No you aren't bad. I don't agree with you, but at least your posts are thoughtful.

[Moai]

Uh... that is how your attempt at illustrating fallacy? A giant straw man?

 

In attempting to describe how prayer is ineffective, you've only given partial reasoning to why you don't believe in prayer, which is no different than people who've found their dog.

 

Huh? I have not given partial reasoning at all. The prayers that are "answered" are so in exact correlation to what we would expect due to probability. How is that partial reasoning?

 

There are often scientific studies done to test the power of prayer in surgery patients, and much to the dismay of interested scientists, patients who had random participants pray for them consistently seem to do better.

 

Nope. Look it up. There was only one study that showed this to be true, and the methodology was shown to be flawed. In fact, the "scientist" involved was shown to have lied. Look up Elizabeth Targ and read away.

 

But such research is misleading, because it approaches the idea of prayer from a completely wrong direction (like you) -- prayer is not a superpower, it's a way to connect with (or pretend to connect with, if you're one of those people into framing debates) something larger than yourself and view a situation from such a context.

 

Such research isn't really "research" at all, for one thing. If humans or god could actually intercede you'd never be able to test for it. Think about it.

 

Moreover, prayer is described specifically in the Bible, what it is for, and how it works.

 

Believe it or not, there are times in many people's lives where conscious, rational thought (the "foreground" of our mind) is not the ultimate reality, but merely a subtle backdrop during which something much more compelling takes over.

 

Was it a joke when you said you were clearing up all the fallacies? Was that irony?

 

No, and I didn't say I was going to "clear them up." I am just going to illustrate a few of them.

 

Conscious, rational thought has nothing to do with "ultimate reality" whatever that is. But it is the best way we have to understand the world around us. It is certainly true that humans can experience alternate states of being, and that there is more than one way of "knowing" in that sense, but it does nto follow that prayer is real or that 2,000 year old ideas about these experiences are correct.

[Storyrider]

Even in the Bible many prayers aren't answered. That aspect of God is built into the story. He doesn't answer Job's prayers. He lets Moses wander for forty years without finding Israel.

 

IMO, prayer is more about asking what to do next, asking for comfort, saying thank you, and simply trying to be in touch with something all good and all powerful. If you believe in God it would be foolish not to be in touch. If you don't, of course the idea is meaningless.

 

It wouldn't be my style to offer to pray for someone or to exhort someone to pray--not really a Jewish style in general. But I do say prayers with my kids before meals and before bedtime.

 

My kids usually ask for help with something they are working on or say thank you for something they liked about the day.

 

I bolded the above b/c I think prayers for help work best when it is something the individual can work toward as well. God seems to like working through natural means, in my experience, rather than performing miracles (haven't seen many in my time. Ha ha.)

 

Look, He put all the thought and work into designing the natural order of things, so now he prefers to work through that order whenever possible.

 

So if you pray to pass the test and you have a couple of days to study, praying just might help. If it is the night before and you haven't studied, chances are slim. If you've already taken the test and gotten the grade back, you had better be the Virgin Mary if you want that grade to change. Ha ha.

[Moai]

Moai, I have complete and total faith in the Lord. It's a belief that God exists but I find a peaceful calm from believing...so it works for me.

 

I cannot make you believe any more than you can convince me not to.

 

But here is an example of how having faith works for me:

 

My sister was sick with cancer for nine years. I use to pray for her and my children prayed for her too. For every surgery that she came out of we thanked God. I use to pray for her to get better. I just wanted her to be like she use to be.

 

But there came a time (about six months before she passed away) when I stopped praying for her to get well. Instead I prayed for God to take her. To stop her suffering. It's what she wanted and instead of being selfish I learned to want that for her too. I stopped praying for the miracle and instead just wished that He would take her too. To stop her suffering.

 

So if you see it from my POV, God didn't answer my first prayer of making her better. He did answer my second one when He took her though. When she died I wasn't distraught that her life had ended but thankful. Although I was sad but I think all of us are sad when we lose a loved one. But I wasn't angry as I have seen so many become when death occurs. Instead I had a peaceful calmness in her passing.

 

And I can only attribute that to my faith. I have seen others at funerals who become angry with God for taking their loved ones. They rarely call upon God or take the time to thank Him but blame Him when their lives are a mess.

 

I don't know why my sister had to suffer the way she did. I really wish her life could've lasted longer and it didn't go the way it did. But I do believe it went exactly according to plan...God's plan.

 

I am sorry for your loss.

 

In your above example, god did what he planned regardless of what you asked for. Also, the cancer progressed exactly as expected, whether you prayed or not. So what good is it? Moreover, god says very specifically that if you pray and have faith, you can move mountains, and that nothing will be denied you. Obviously that isn't the case.

 

How can god be good if it is part of his plan to make others suffer? If I kidnapped your sister and tortured her because I had a plan to show you my power, or in hopes of you learning some lesson I would be considered horribly evil, and they'd lock me up and throw away the key--and rightly so. But god does it and he is good and it is part of a greater plan? Shouldn't god be at least as moral as I am?

 

I have more to say about "god's plan" in another post.

[Moai]

I have heard stories of soldiers on the battle front...who had been wounded..

 

1) Soldier.. has limb blown off.. losses lots of blood... very good chance of not making it. He tells the medics... I"m gonna live... and he does.

 

2) Another soldier... has a finger blown off.... he screams to the medics... "I'm gonna die" and does...

 

I have heard stories many times... probably the same ones..

 

But... it illustrates... that faith.. (not just religious faith) can make the difference.

 

It isn't faith making the difference. It is true that belief can be a very powerful thing, but that doesn't mean there is magic involved.

 

A friend of mine is a police officer, and his partner was shot with a .25 caliber pistol in the arm. The .25 has slightly more power than a pellet gun. He was so convinced that when you are shot you die, that he went into shock and died.

 

There are just as many instances where someone who has little chance of making it dies as well. Probability.

 

Now I do believe in god... Never did before... I found a sense of well being... and finally some peace inside myself.. that I never have had before... I do not talk to anyone about it... it is for me... and it real for me.

 

I don't like organised religion... but having some form of faith... can't be a bad thing.

 

Yes, it can. In your case, the type of faith you have can be benign, but for others it is not. Honor killings, stonings for homosexuals, wars...all because of faith.

 

I do agree though... that it is wrong.. to shove your religion down others throats... whether it be Christian.... Jewish.... or Muslim.

 

Religious differences of opinions... has caused A LOT of souls to go to their respective (Heaven) in a not so peaceful way...

 

Well said.

[amaysngrace]

How can god be good if it is part of his plan to make others suffer?

 

Well I am a Christian and I believe that God made His own Son suffer. To teach others how to live. And to prove a point on how much we all should love God.

 

You omitted the other part of my post on saying that it's been pretty apparent to me how the non-believers seem so angry at death while those who have faith are much more calm. Why is that?

[Moai]

Even in the Bible many prayers aren't answered. That aspect of God is built into the story. He doesn't answer Job's prayers. He lets Moses wander for forty years without finding Israel.

 

That's because god made a deal with Satan to mess with Job. Look it up. But Jesus says all prayers are answered. I am not arguing that the Bible isn't contradictory, by the way.

 

IMO, prayer is more about asking what to do next, asking for comfort, saying thank you, and simply trying to be in touch with something all good and all powerful. If you believe in God it would be foolish not to be in touch. If you don't, of course the idea is meaningless.

 

God is all good? Where did you get that idea? Certainly not the world around you, or the Bible.

 

It wouldn't be my style to offer to pray for someone or to exhort someone to pray--not really a Jewish style in general. But I do say prayers with my kids before meals and before bedtime.

 

My kids usually ask for help with something they are working on or say thank you for something they liked about the day.

 

I bolded the above b/c I think prayers for help work best when it is something the individual can work toward as well. God seems to like working through natural means, in my experience, rather than performing miracles (haven't seen many in my time. Ha ha.)

 

Which is happening anyway.

 

Look, He put all the thought and work into designing the natural order of things, so now he prefers to work through that order whenever possible.

 

That is a good way to put it, I suppose, but that is the ONLY way he seems to work.

 

Funny how god takes time away from making sure molecules behave the way he wants to worry about how humans are expressing themselves sexually or how they are dressing.

 

So if you pray to pass the test and you have a couple of days to study, praying just might help.

 

I would say that time taken in praying would be better spent studying.

 

If it is the night before and you haven't studied, chances are slim. If you've already taken the test and gotten the grade back, you had better be the Virgin Mary if you want that grade to change. Ha ha.

 

Or pray that when looking at your paper the teacher's mind wanders and she scrawls an "A" on it by mistake.

[Moai]

Well I am a Christian and I believe that God made His own Son suffer. To teach others how to live. And to prove a point on how much we all should love God.

 

You omitted the other part of my post on saying that it's been pretty apparent to me how the non-believers seem so angry at death while those who have faith are much more calm. Why is that?

 

God making his own son suffer because of something someone else did (Adam) is immoral, for one thing.

 

I have no idea why some people are angry at death. I know believers are calm because they believe in some form of afterlife. A belief that actually effects things negatively here, whether the living feel better or not.

 

People fly into buildings now because of the promise of Heaven after death.

 

Anyone angry at death is really not an "un-believer" at all. Death is a natural part of life, and inevitable. It is irrational to get angry about it--unless of course murder or the like is involved, but then the anger should be focused on the perpetrator, not death itself. I would imagine that they aren't angry at death but angry at god, in which case they aren't an "un-believer" at all.

 

I didn't address that earlier because I have a whole post about that, and wanted to get prayer out of the way first.

[sb129]

I would only get angry at death if someone else was responsible for said death.

 

IE: medical negligence, murder, RTA etc.

[ilmw]

No you aren't bad. I don't agree with you, but at least your posts are thoughtful.

 

Thanks.. Just out of curiosity ...what don't you agree with?