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Getting lean - intense cutting workout. Thoughts?


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My current workout:

 

Monday - Chest/Tri/Shoulders + 30 min medium cardio

Tuesday - Abs + 30 min medium cardio

Wednesday - Back/Biceps + 30 min medium cardio

Thursday - Legs + 30 min medium cardio

Fri - rest

Saturday - 60 min swimming

Sunday - 60 min swimming

 

My goal is to lose about 20 pounds of fat by september while preserving as much muscle as possible. I'm eating about 2500 calories a day (im a bigger guy, 6'3) and getting in my protein everyday. I'm worried I might lose muscle, as right now my weight exercises are strictly maintenance (not going up in weight) - should I tone down the cardio or should I be ok with my current routine and diet?

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The golden rule of cutting: though shalt keep weight (or add weight) on the bar.

 

If you want to retain muscle mass while dieting down, you absolutely have to still lift heavy. If you only train with light weights, your body will have no reason to retain muscle, especially in the presence of a caloric deficit.

 

A couple things that have helped me cut down (to a point where visible abs are actually happening for the first time in my life):

 

1) Leangains Intermittent Fasting

 

2) daily fasted walks

 

3) monitoring my fat intake (I used to be a carb-o-phobe, and as a result of my misguided intentions I was eating wayyy to much fat and going overboard on calories)

 

4) Upping my protein intake

 

5) More volume (higher rep sets) at the ends of my workouts. This will help burn more calories, allow you to train smaller muscles, and helps complete a "two pronged" approach to stimulating your muscles to grow/maintain.

 

You might consider splitting your training schedule into movements instead of muscle groups. What I do is train 3 days per week on a 1.5 week cycle. For example: Monday: Bench/Rows (with a poundage emphasis on bench, and a volume emphasis on rows), Tuesday: Sprints/Bodyweight workout/etc., Wednesday: Squats (heavy), Thursday: Interval Running, Friday: Overhead press/vertical pulling (again, with poundage emphasis on ohp, volume emphasis on pulling. This is to help maintain shoulder health, and let's face it, a big upper back is knarly), Sat: hiking/skiing/tennis/etc., Sunday: same as saturday, Monday: Deadlift (heavy).

 

As you can see I'm hitting each movement once per 1.5 weeks or so, but each muscle group is hit once every 3-4 days. I would consider this a moderate frequency approach, whereas your routine would be a low frequency approach. With your routine, you'll have to incorporate a lot of volume into each of your training days to build strength/mass. If you're not used to that level of volume, or don't have the time to spend in the gym needed to attain that level of volume, you could be coming short compared to a higher frequency approach.

 

I would recommend that you look at Jim Wendler's 5/3/1. It's not magical or even "better" than every other program, but it's simple and incorporates all of the time-tested principles needed to grow and maintain strength and muscle mass. It's also easily customized to weight itself more heavily towards strength or hypertrophy depending on your goals. While it's not the only way, it's a very solid program.

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What do you weigh? And what's your current bodyfat?

 

I would recommend that you look at Jim Wendler's 5/3/1. It's not magical or even "better" than every other program, but it's simple and incorporates all of the time-tested principles needed to grow and maintain strength and muscle mass. It's also easily customized to weight itself more heavily towards strength or hypertrophy depending on your goals. While it's not the only way, it's a very solid program.

 

Seconded! I did 5/3/1 for four cycles ending in May and I made tremendous gains in my squat, deadlift, and OHP.

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That sounds like an amazing routine, Tman. I'll try incorporating that in a month or so - when I have more time.

 

Choco - I weigh 230. I'd say I have atleast 20 pounds of fat. So maybe 10-15%

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That sounds like an amazing routine, Tman. I'll try incorporating that in a month or so - when I have more time.

 

Choco - I weigh 230. I'd say I have atleast 20 pounds of fat. So maybe 10-15%

 

Well, there is a big difference between 10% bf and 15% bf, but both are quite lean. Here's a picture that should give you a vague idea: http://kdtoptometry.com/2011/05/free-stubborn-bodyfat-video/men-body-fat-low1/ (scroll down).

 

Are you cutting for a competition?

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Well damn. According to that diagram, I'm probably at 20 right now and I'd like to be at 12. I'm doing it just for myself, no competitions

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Ok, so you are 6'3" and you weigh 230? How old are you? I am guessing your BMR is around 2300. That's the calories you'd burn if you did nothing buy lay in bed 24/7. So cutting back to 2500 is pretty drastic, given your level of activity. I'd recommend calculating the number of calories you are eating now and then cutting back by ~15%. This will result in slower weight loss, but a greater likelihood of losing fat rather than muscle.

 

I'd also do less cardio and more weight lifting. You've got 6 days of cardio in your current plan, which is a lot. What about doing something like 3 days lifting, 3 days cardio and 1 day of rest? Or swapping out some of the medium/slow cardio for Tabata? Tman's program is a creative approach to this. Chad Waterbury has programs that also fit the bill (and he gives you the specific exercises, sets, reps, rest times, etc.). You can read his stuff on the t-nation site.

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I'd like to add in one little tidbit of philosophy here regarding the order of cardio choices.

 

Like Chocolat said, your main focus should be hitting the weights hard and heavy. This doesn't mean that you need to lift every day or be in the gym for hours and hours, but it does mean that your top priority should be seeing forward progression on all your lifts, whether it be a lat pull down or a barbell back squat. This doesn't necessarily mean that you have to be pushing 1 rep maxes every week. In fact, I would recommend against that. Instead, focus on rep PRs in the short term while adding weight in small increments over the long term. If you go from benching 225 x 3 to 225 x 8, you've gotten stronger. This is the type of progression I'm talking about.

 

After your lifting is in place, your choice of cardio needs to be dictated by your recovery abilities and athletic needs. While HIIT/Tabatas/Sprints/etc. are very good for increasing performance, they also impact your Central Nervous System, joints, and fatigue levels in a much greater way than steady state, lower intensity cardio. They also take less time to complete within the context of a workout, which is a big draw for some people. However, due to their higher impacts, they also have more injury potential and have the potential to undercut your efforts in the weight room, which is counterproductive. I'm not going to tell you what your abilities are because I don't know you. That's a call you have to make. All I'm saying is that you need to be cognizant of the potential drawbacks of high intensity cardio.

 

Low intensity, steady state cardio (such as fasted walks) has a very minimal impact on your CNS and ability to recover from the gym, and may in fact help you recover faster. The downside is that it takes longer to burn the same amount of energy as you would in an HIIT session. This, in my experience, can be mitigated somewhat by the fact that the impact is so minimal that you can do this every day. Try sprinting every day and tell me what happens. ;)

 

Before you throw HIIT under the bus though, I would keep a session in per week to keep your conditioning levels and performance up. You could add a second session if your recovery is going well. However, I would stick with the hierarchy of making the weights priority numero uno, daily low-intensity cardio (preferably fasted) the second priority, and sort of "sprinkle on" the HIIT depending on your recovery abilities.

 

Just my $.02.

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Before you throw HIIT under the bus though, I would keep a session in per week to keep your conditioning levels and performance up. You could add a second session if your recovery is going well. However, I would stick with the hierarchy of making the weights priority numero uno, daily low-intensity cardio (preferably fasted) the second priority, and sort of "sprinkle on" the HIIT depending on your recovery abilities.

 

Just my $.02.

 

It's $.04 now. :)

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I've absolutely noticed gains in strength so far. Regarding my cardio, the 30 minutes is usually on the treadmill. I'm walking at a speed of 4.0 with incline variations, and jogging for 10 minutes through out ( currently splitting it at 7 minutes midway, then finish off with 3 minutes) at 6.0 speed.

 

Regarding my diet, I'm eating a good amount each day

 

Breakfast

 

-Oatmeal. Multivitamin

 

Snack

 

-Protein bar

 

Lunch

 

- Large chicken breast with carrots and broccoli

 

Pre-workout

 

- 2 scoops of Scivation Novem

 

During Workout

 

- 4 scoops of Scivation Xtend

 

Post-workout

 

- 2 Scoops Gold Standard Whey

 

Snack

 

- Beef Jerky

 

Dinner

 

- Not picky about this, I just make sure the calorie/carb content isn't through the roof

 

Choc - I'm 24

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I like Tom Venuto's Burn the Fat, Feed the Muscle. It's a well-researched, practical approach to nutrition. Even if you don't adopt his plan, I recommend reading the book as an excellent primer on nutrition. When I stick to BFFM, I can maintain 13%-15% bodyfat without cardio. (BF levels for women are typically about 5% higher than for men.)

 

YMMV.

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His blog is a very interesting read. For instance I always thought biggest loser was a bit too ridiculous, I enjoyed reading the criticism from a knowledgeable point of view. I'm going to keep scanning through it. Thanks, Choc

 

Regarding nutrition, I have a few questions about supplements.

 

I've been taking Novem as a pre-workout boost and it's been working wonders so far. Increased vascularity and a non-jittery pump during the workouts. Xtend has been giving me some nice results too - quicker recovery for sure.

 

My question lies in some of the pill supplements. I've been thinking about taking Fish Oil and ZMA. I heard alot about Fish oil and I'm thinking of starting that, but I've only heard bits and pieces about ZMA. Heard it'll increase natural testosterone after some time and help improve sleep. Thoughts?

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His blog is a very interesting read. For instance I always thought biggest loser was a bit too ridiculous, I enjoyed reading the criticism from a knowledgeable point of view. I'm going to keep scanning through it. Thanks, Choc

 

Regarding nutrition, I have a few questions about supplements.

 

I've been taking Novem as a pre-workout boost and it's been working wonders so far. Increased vascularity and a non-jittery pump during the workouts. Xtend has been giving me some nice results too - quicker recovery for sure.

 

My question lies in some of the pill supplements. I've been thinking about taking Fish Oil and ZMA. I heard alot about Fish oil and I'm thinking of starting that, but I've only heard bits and pieces about ZMA. Heard it'll increase natural testosterone after some time and help improve sleep. Thoughts?

 

I don't read Venuto's blog. He changed marketing tactics a few years ago and, while I am a huge fan of the BFFM e-book, I am sort of turned off by the Tom Venuto Machine. If you can't find the e-book, pm me. (Edit: this is not to say that the blog is no good, only that I am not familiar with it so I can't comment one way or the other.)

 

The Novem contains creatine and beta alanine, both of which have some actual science to support their use (as opposed to many other supplements that have exciting names and big price tags but deliver little in the way of results). The other ingredients are available in a good multi-vitamin and cup of coffee. I tend to not like proprietary blends because I want to know how much of each thing I am getting. I could not find this information on the Scivation site; is it on the label?

 

I like Xtend and never go to the gym without it. :)

 

Fish oil is a good addition if you are not already eating fatty fish like salmon. Healthy fats are essential for hormone production so while you don't want to go overboard with fats, omega 3's (found in fish oil) are A+ imo.

 

ZMA has been pretty much debunked as a testosterone booster but it does help some people with sleep. It can't hurt you and it doesn't cost much, so if you have sleep issues, give it a try.

 

The best natural testosterone booster is -- you guessed it! -- heavy lifting! :) In any case, at 24, I am guessing you are loaded with the stuff, and, if you aren't, a visit to the doctor is in order.

 

All that said... the most important thing is to get your nutrition in order. Supplements are just that -- items that supplement an already good diet. The saying goes, "You can't out-train a poor diet" and I would add that you can't out-supplement it, either.

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I don't read Venuto's blog. He changed marketing tactics a few years ago and, while I am a huge fan of the BFFM e-book, I am sort of turned off by the Tom Venuto Machine. If you can't find the e-book, pm me. (Edit: this is not to say that the blog is no good, only that I am not familiar with it so I can't comment one way or the other.)

 

The Novem contains creatine and beta alanine, both of which have some actual science to support their use (as opposed to many other supplements that have exciting names and big price tags but deliver little in the way of results). The other ingredients are available in a good multi-vitamin and cup of coffee. I tend to not like proprietary blends because I want to know how much of each thing I am getting. I could not find this information on the Scivation site; is it on the label?

 

I like Xtend and never go to the gym without it. :)

 

Fish oil is a good addition if you are not already eating fatty fish like salmon. Healthy fats are essential for hormone production so while you don't want to go overboard with fats, omega 3's (found in fish oil) are A+ imo.

 

ZMA has been pretty much debunked as a testosterone booster but it does help some people with sleep. It can't hurt you and it doesn't cost much, so if you have sleep issues, give it a try.

 

The best natural testosterone booster is -- you guessed it! -- heavy lifting! :) In any case, at 24, I am guessing you are loaded with the stuff, and, if you aren't, a visit to the doctor is in order.

 

All that said... the most important thing is to get your nutrition in order. Supplements are just that -- items that supplement an already good diet. The saying goes, "You can't out-train a poor diet" and I would add that you can't out-supplement it, either.

 

Great post Chocolat!

 

I also support the use of a pre-workout supplement for all goals. I've heard good things about Xtend. I personally have been using a supplement called Body Octane: Game Day by M.A.N. Sports. A buddy of mine is one of their sponsored athletes so he gets the stuff real cheaply. ;)

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Thanks alot for the insight guys. I have one more question.

 

It seems you two have been keeping active for quite some time. How do you keep yourselves motivated day in and day out? I know working out is all about a change of lifestyle - permanent consistancy. I would love to achieve this, but have times where I burn out and return to my life long bad habits (I was in horrible shape and inactive most of my life up until I turned 21). For example, today I had a very intense workout and towards the end, it was so grueling I almost wanted to give up - but pushed those last 3 minutes on the treadmill. I was happy I didn't stop, but at the same time I'm worried in the future that I will when my motivation dies down a level.

 

Any advice would be greatly appreciated

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Well, personally speaking, it's part of who I am. I feel incomplete without it. That doesn't mean that I don't take rests occasionally, but they almost never last for more than a week. In fact, I can't even remember the last time I took more than a couple of days "fully off" of some form of exercise, barring sickness.

 

Early on though, my motivation came from seeing the resultant physical changes in myself and having other people see changes. When you go from being the skinny band nerd to having random people come up to you in the gym asking if you play college football, it gets addicting having that positive attention. I felt that the pursuit of adding muscle and becoming more athletic made me a bigger contender socially, romantically, and professionally. I say this not because of my own self perception, but rather based on my experiences with how people react to me now versus how I was treated prior to getting into lifting.

 

Basically, nobody likes doing things that have no apparent return. In my case, I saw "returns" within about six months after starting up. It helped propel me forward with the desire and passion to get more experienced, get stronger, and get more knowledgeable about such things. If you can develop it into a passion, you never know where that passion can take you.

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That's some good insight. I know exactly how you feel when you say that longterm hardwork for longterm/lifelong gratification is much more satisfying than instant short term gratification which our current generation seems obsessed with. My experience comes from mostly projects, work, classes - my passion was driving my intelligence. I want balance though, and I hope I can display that much passion working out as well.

 

I've been working out on/off for the past year or so but never really took it too seriously. Nevertheless, I did get some results, and I noticed people have been treating me with more respect than before. It's a good feeling, and I can't wait until I get the results I'm striving for.

 

Regarding women, how significantly has that changed for you? Being newly single, that's definitely one of the things I'm looking forward to haha

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Hey Sivok!

 

A few thoughts on motivation... For one, I identify with this statement of tman's:

 

Well, personally speaking, it's part of who I am. I feel incomplete without it. That doesn't mean that I don't take rests occasionally, but they almost never last for more than a week. In fact, I can't even remember the last time I took more than a couple of days "fully off" of some form of exercise, barring sickness.

 

Ok, but how did I get there? I spent a lot of years not working out, although I always ate well and remained slim. After I had my first daughter, I worked out for a few months to get back into pre-pregnancy shape, but then I stopped. Ditto after babies 2 and 3.

 

The #1 reason I would stop is because I wasn't getting any results. Sure, I'd get myself back to where I'd been, but I wasn't seeing any real changes in my body. The problem was that I had no idea what I was doing. For instance, because I hated cardio, I would go to the gym and perform 40 minutes of cardio and then wander around the machines doing a little of this and a little of that in no particular order. So it's no surprise that my body stayed pretty much the same.

 

Anyway, after my third child was born, I was diagnosed with fibromyalgia. And one day, when that child was about 5, I realise I could not lift her out of the tub. This was my wake-up call -- either I was going to have to get stronger or I'd be looking forward to a seriously restricted lifestyle at some point.

 

So I started working out for real this time. I read everything I could get my hands on about exercise physiology and workout nutrition. I made a plan and stuck with it. I kept records of workouts, meals, and measurements. Because I was finally doing things right, I started to see changes in my body -- I was stronger, I had energy, I had visible muscles and striations! Never under-estimate the vanity factor - having the body of a 20 year old and being asked what I do to stay in shape were (and are) huge rewards. But what I love most is discovering what I am capable of. When I am in the gym, it is just me and the weights and each PR I achieve feels like a conquest.

 

Regarding women, how significantly has that changed for you? Being newly single, that's definitely one of the things I'm looking forward to haha

 

I am sure it helps. :) But you need to find your motivation from inside of you, otherwise you'll quit as soon as you land the lady of your dreams. And, you know what? If weights isn't the thing that floats your boat, find the thing that does. Tennis, running, swimming, whatever. The activity you will do everyday (or most days) is far superior to the "best" exercise you will dread doing.

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Another great and very inspirational post from Chocolat...

 

Sivok, regarding the ladies:

 

I agree with what Chocolat said about not lifting for the sole purpose of attracting women. That being said, I feel there is nothing wrong with being motivated by the possibility of being seen as more attractive by the opposite sex.

 

Personally, I found that after I bulked up and got in better shape that girls who previously or normally wouldn't have even looked in my direction started coming up and talking to me. Here's the problem though: my social skills and "game" (for lack of a better term, which I hate) were so far behind due to various factors that I remained not much of a catch. I could get my foot in the door, but I didn't have the social skills needed to seal the deal. It took my a while to figure that out, and I actually feel that I'm still somewhat of an awkward guy (despite my massive improvements in that area)...

 

Take away point: initial attraction is just that (initial). To truly be seen as a stud by the ladies, one has to have the whole package: smarts, looks, social skills, confidence, yadda yadda we get the freaking picture already.

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Wow what an inspirational story, Choc. The fact that you took care of a young family and managed to still find the drive to get yourself in amazing shape is phenomenal. The amount of willpower that must have took... I really got no excuses now, haha!

 

T-man, yeah, that's pretty much what I've been expecting. I feel I've got smarts, social skills, and a good amount of confidence, but the looks part needs some serious work. Basically if I were to rate it on a grade scale, I'd do something like:

 

Smarts - A

Social Skills - B

Confidence - B

Body - D

-------------

Overall - C

 

I don't have trouble building rapport with women, but when it comes to making a move, I get self conscious about my body and mess it up. My body looks really good with clothes, but once they come off, oh man - that weight hides itself well.

 

I'm not going to give up this time. This is the one area of my life I've been seriously denying, and I've always viewed it as my most challenging personal goal yet. I've been on my new diet and workout routine for the past two weeks and dropped 8 pounds so far while gaining strength. I'm going to do my best to keep going, and I'll keep you guys updated with my progress.

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Smarts - A

Social Skills - B

Confidence - B

Body - D

-------------

Overall - C

 

Hmmm... this must be the new math! :laugh:

 

A = 4.0

B = 3.0

C = 2.0

D = 1.0

 

(4.0+3.0+3.0+1.0)/4 = 2.75 = B-

 

That's for an unweighted average. :) As a woman, I place a lot more value on smarts and character than body. Most of the men I've been involved with have had pretty average bodies, but they shined in other areas. :) Not saying this dissuade you from your goal in any way, but only to suggest that, unless you are grotesque, your body probably has more to do with your own confidence than with your ability to put the moves on a woman. ;)

 

 

I'm not going to give up this time. This is the one area of my life I've been seriously denying, and I've always viewed it as my most challenging personal goal yet. I've been on my new diet and workout routine for the past two weeks and dropped 8 pounds so far while gaining strength. I'm going to do my best to keep going, and I'll keep you guys updated with my progress.

 

Congrats on your loss to date! Good luck with your goal and have fun with it!

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As a latecomer to this thread, I don't really have anything to add...great advice from tman and chocolat...

 

Though for motivation to work out, I'd say a key to keeping up with your training is routine...make training as important as sleep or going to work and have an established part of the day and part of the week when you train...would you just skip out on work because you're tired? If not, then you won't skip out on training either. Also, as the two others have said, results are probably the greatest motivator...so you just have to stick with it...

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Thanks for the advice guys. Choco, you're right. I was told that plenty of times by friends and ex girlfriends as well, but I can't shake the effect it has on my confidence.

 

Regarding the grading, you're right haha. I more or less was grading on an absolute scale (2-2.99 = C etc).

 

Hokie, so true. For the past two weeks I've been going at 3:30 - 5 every mon-thurs. I haven't missed a day yet. Here's hoping that will keep up :)

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  • 2 weeks later...
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Update

 

So it seems like I'm at a state of equilibrium right now. I've maintained my workout and only missed one day (legs) due to finals. I'm sitting at 228 still, but I did notice that I am getting stronger. I've gone up in weights on every exercise save pull ups (I'm currently using an assist machine). It looks like I'm at that balancing point where I'm losing fat and replacing it with some muscle. Also, I've added another minute of sprinting to my 30 minute post workout cardio - so it's now 19 minutes walking and 11 minutes running (varying inclines and intervals, but that's the total)

 

I want to lose that fat a bit faster though. I had said in my original post that I'd be swimming for 2 days, but I'll be the one to admit I never got around to doing that... Meaning I'd have 3 rest days a week. I think I'm going to go ahead and add an hour of intense interval training on saturday and sunday. That should quicken the pace of my weight loss

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