gaslighting

[adelia]

i came across this term and oh boy does it sound familiar what ive experienced. does anyone have any experiences or advice they can share on the topic?

 

my ex always told half truths, lied,made up silly stories that he knew i knew were ridiculous. i couldnt figure out why but it was to make me lose faith in my judgement and sense of self and my sanity. i felt it but didnt fully believe it or know what it was until i came across this form of narcissistic insidious abuse. its so subtle and slow progressing you dont realize it until your whole mindset has changed. i allowed it because of my low self esteem and awful programming from my childhood that told me i didnt deserve any better. a crap mom who taught me the opposite that i didnt matter and everyone else did. being naive and giving to much information to the wrong people so they could use it against me. i enabled it but didnt understand it. its been a hard cycle to break free of because of dependencies emotionally and truly feeling i loved this person and i do even though its been toxic to me on so many levels.

[Downtown]

Adelia, the term is taken from the classic 1944 movie, Gaslight, in which a husband (Charles Boyer) tries to drive his new bride (Ingrid Bergman) crazy. His objective is to get her institutionalized in a psych ward so he can run off with her family jewels. The term therefore is used by abused partners to refer to the deliberately "crazy-making" behavior of narcissists and sociopaths -- both of whom tend to be very manipulating.

 

Unfortunately, the term also is frequently mistakenly used in reference to BPDers who, in my experience, are far too reactive and impulsive to be any good at manipulation (which requires careful planning and flawless execution to be successful). My BPDer exW, for example, is extremely controlling -- in an opportunistic sense. She is far too reactive to whatever intense feeling sweeps over her to be any good at scheming and manipulating.

 

Whereas narcissists and sociopaths don't believe a word of the outrageous allegations coming out of their mouths, BPDers generally are fully convinced that this nonsense is true. The reason is that, because they are filled with self loathing and shame, their subconscious minds protect their fragile egos from seeing too much of reality. This is accomplished -- entirely at the subconscious level -- by projecting hurtful thoughts and feelings onto the BPDer's partner.

 

The result is that, at a conscious level, the BPDer is convinced the projection is absolutely true. And a week later, when her feelings have flipped 180 degrees, she will be just as convinced that the new projection is true also. Hence, the beauty of projection -- and the reason it is such a wonderful ego defense -- is that it is entirely GUILT FREE because it arises from a thought distortion, not from a lie or deliberate manipulation.

 

I mention all this to explain why I view BPDer behavior as very controlling but -- due to the lack of deliberate manipulation -- as not constituting "gaslighting." That is, BPDers are acting out of fear and, unlike the Charles Boyer character, usually are NOT trying to drive you crazy.

 

The irony is that -- because BPDers are so sincere and genuinely convinced that their absurd projections are true -- they generally have a greater "crazy-making" effect than can ever be achieved by the narcissists and sociopaths. This is why that, of the 157 mental disorders listed in the APA's diagnostic manual, BPD is the one most notorious for making the abused partners feel like they may be losing their minds.

 

Nothing will drive you crazier sooner than being repeatedly abused by a partner whom you know, to a certainty, must really love you. The reason is that you will be mistakenly convinced that, if only you can figure out what YOU are doing wrong, you can restore your partner to that wonderful human being you saw at the very beginning.

[Still-I-Rise]

I've just learned the meaning of the term gaslighting and thought I had my answer for what transpired during my marriage.

 

My background is similar to OPs.

 

However, while most people call my husband a sociopath, narcissist and a pathological liar, I thought it interesting my son's psychiatrist said he has BPD without having met him.

 

Reading Downtown's post brings clarity to the psychiatrist's reasoning.

 

The explanation/description you provide Downtown makes me believe what I experienced is BPD, almost to a T.

 

Thank you for the free therapy session.

[Downtown]

Rise, thanks so much for the kind words.

The explanation/description you provide Downtown makes me believe what I experienced is BPD, almost to a T.

If so, then you may immediately recognize most of the 18 warning signs I list at http://www.loveshack.org/forums/breaking-up-reconciliation-coping/breaks-breaking-up/419416-ran-into-my-ex-bar-8-months-later-interesting-story#post5164075. And my more detailed description of those traits -- at http://www.loveshack.org/forums/breaking-up-reconciliation-coping/separation-divorce/275289-crazy-i-think-but-i-love-her-anyway#post3398735 -- may read like a short biography of your H's life. If that description rings a bell, Rise, I would be glad to discuss it with you if you want to start your own thread.

[ThatMan]

There are many forms of abuse. Gaslighting, although very different than visible cuts or bruises, erodes away at the trust you place into yourself. You can find yourself doubting and blaming yourself for the mistreatment brought on by the very person you loved. Any emotional abuse, including gaslighting, requires time to heal from the trauma. Healing from gaslighting is not dissimilar to moving on from any form of abuse.

 

Continue searching for support. I'm very impressed that you've chosen to speak about your experiences here. The input from a professional will be far more invaluable than anything we can tell you. But as you continue moving on from this experience, please remember:

Do not seek out and poll people to confirm your perceptions!

We weren't there. We cannot tell you what did or did not happen. But you can gain support through talking about it.

 

Repair your trust in yourself. Anybody who has experienced gaslighting is plagued by doubts and uncertainties for a time. But you can begin to welcome all perspectives. You can learn to say no to abusive behaviors despite how radically different other views are. The crux of the problem is your relationship with yourself. No matter what anybody else says, you need to be willing to establish healthy boundaries for yourself with confidence.

 

Moving on from painful childhood memories is difficult enough when you're already unsure of yourself. With a commitment to working through past trauma, you absolutely can begin to heal. I really think you stand to gain a lot from speaking to a professional about this. Don't be afraid to visit your local library to browse for self-help books on abuse.

[adelia]

Thnks downtown for the info. I do see what you're saying and can differentiate between the two. My aunt has bpd. It's erratic behavior huge highs and lowest of the lows. That IMO is very extremely different from a gaslighter. Gaslighters are cool calm and collect at all times and make their partner feel like they're being erratic for things they subtly caused. Things to make them feel insecure, question if they are overreacting, games to mess with the mind. It's all very calculated and scheming and done to achieve some goal whether controlling that person or making themselves feel powerful. It's so subtle that it chips away slowly until you no longer know yourself or feel strong in your own judgements.

This of course can only be achieved with someone that had flaws and weaknesses to start out with but they zone in on those qualities because they can work with that!

I do intend to talk to a psychologist in the new yr and hopefully work on myself more. There's a lot of healing to be done and re programming of beliefs that have been instilled within me from a young age. When you've grown up trying to gain love and please people you tend to gravitate towards the same types not feeling you can do any better.

Another thing I noticed in toxic relationships like these is how theybuild you up love you but then tear you down in subtle ways leaving you clueless but that's part of gaining control and keeping you off balance.

[Confuddled1983]

My ex used to do this. He's a narc.

 

With him he would tell me something happened, then say it didn't happen, then make out he never said it in the first place! - That's just one example.

He'd also say I'd said things I hadn't, done things I hadn't done and was so manipulative I found myself doubting absolutely everything.

It was only after I removed myself from the situation that I realised what was going on, it actually terrifies me to think I was so deep in the situation.

We have a child together but I've been NC with him (the x) for about 5 weeks. I saw him in a distance today and had to fight off a panic attack. He texts sometimes but I never reply, it makes me feel shaky but I know he won't say anything too bad in a text because it's proof - and he's good at hiding his abusive behaviour unfortunately. He used to tell me that everyone thinks I'm crazy, (argh tears now) that no-one would believe me about anything .... I fell for that. Although in fairness the extent of his lies and behaviour is so great that if I hear myself start to tell people the extent I pull back because as I hear myself say it I think "hell, this does sound crazy, no one would believe me".

I'm scared everyday, scared that he will do something to me, scared he will find some way to destroy me and my life. I actually never admitted that before because I try to act/be strong for my child.

I've done a dangerous thing - I've attempted to expose him, I'm scared he'll find out. He's been stealing £1000s from his workplace, I've told his boss, I didn't say for ages as I was scared I wouldn't be believed, his boss says he's very charming and very nice but he has already started to see signs since it's been pointed out. I feel so thankful to his boss for the way he's dealt with it and how he's kept me out of it and for the fact he doesn't think I'm crazy! I said to him that I understand if he thinks I'm just an ex looking to cause trouble and that if he chooses not to believe me then that's fine, his choice but he does.

 

I come from a childhood that was pretty traumatic like you Adelia - I wonder if these abusers seek us out, knowing we've been abused and are perhaps more vulnerable? I always felt what I suffered as a child made me more open-eyed to it all, that I was stronger for it and would spot it far more easily, what I've found is I'm actually just more of a target. (How it feels anyway).

[imtooconfused]

My ex used to do this. He's a narc.

 

I agree. My experience is that Gaslighting is more associated with NPD. But it does cause you to loose your sanity and "faith in your judgment." Recognizing that it is happening to you is the most important step.

[felicity1]

I come from a childhood that was pretty traumatic like you Adelia - I wonder if these abusers seek us out, knowing we've been abused and are perhaps more vulnerable? I always felt what I suffered as a child made me more open-eyed to it all, that I was stronger for it and would spot it far more easily, what I've found is I'm actually just more of a target. (How it feels anyway).

 

I also suffered child-abuse by several family members and have also attracted similar sorts of people into my life.

 

It took me decades to learn that I accepted being treated like dirt b/c that was exactly what I was raised to believe, that I was worthless. It was all I knew, in terms of where I stood in relationships.

 

So if we suffer from low self worth, it's only natural that we are going to attract abusive people who can confirm our untrue beliefs about ourselves-perfect match.

[LilGirlandOW]

Gaslighting makes you doubt yourself, your perceptions, and sense of reality.

 

 

example, cheating husband meets up with mistress frequently, tells you he goes for coffee with buddies. You come across reason to think he's up to no good, and it becomes your fault for doubting him... he turns the scenario onto you, claiming you're just trying to start a fight, or you have trust issues (even though you should), etc etc. If he is seasoned with this, you actually feel badly for starting the fight with him over his whereabouts and feel bad for questioning his faithfulness. That's cause the gas(his manipulation) has got to you and you question your own behavior over the situation, even though a 3rd party would say your behavior is justified.

[Arieswoman]

LilgirlandOW,

 

Gaslighting makes you doubt yourself, your perceptions, and sense of reality.

 

 

example, cheating husband meets up with mistress frequently, tells you he goes for coffee with buddies. You come across reason to think he's up to no good, and it becomes your fault for doubting him... he turns the scenario onto you, claiming you're just trying to start a fight, or you have trust issues (even though you should), etc etc. If he is seasoned with this, you actually feel badly for starting the fight with him over his whereabouts and feel bad for questioning his faithfulness. That's cause the gas(his manipulation) has got to you and you question your own behavior over the situation, even though a 3rd party would say your behavior is justified.

 

Been there had that done to me.

 

When I discovered my exH's affair my first reaction was relief, as I realised that I wasn't losing my mind after all.

[M30USA]

The only thing about gaslighting that I don't know is just HOW intentional is it? And is the effect of making you question reality their PRIME goal or is it just secondary to some other goal of theirs?

[Downtown]

The only thing about gaslighting that I don't know is just HOW intentional is it?

M30, if it is not intentional, it is not gaslighting -- as I tried to explain in post #2 above. Yet, because it is only a popular term and not a technical one, you are not bound by the popular usage. Instead, you can use it to mean something else as long as you make it clear to readers that you're defining it differently. In the popular usage, however, gaslighting is deliberate deception.

[M30USA]

M30, if it is not intentional, it is not gaslighting -- as I tried to explain in post #2 above. Yet, because it is only a popular term and not a technical one, you are not bound by the popular usage. Instead, you can use it to mean something else as long as you make it clear to readers that you're defining it differently. In the popular usage, however, gaslighting is deliberate deception.

 

Informative as always, D.

[ThatMan]

The only thing about gaslighting that I don't know is just HOW intentional is it? And is the effect of making you question reality their PRIME goal or is it just secondary to some other goal of theirs?

This is actually a problem I have with the definition of gaslighting. When the term was first coined it was used to describe a play that blatantly illustrated intentions to the audience. It's markedly difficult to prove this sort of intent outside of a work of fiction. There's many reasons why any given person would lie in the first place. What's important is whether or not an individual loses all trust in themselves and constantly questions their own reality. You'll find that people use the term gaslighting to describe how people react to a lie itself - rather than the underlying intent behind that lie.

[Downtown]

It's markedly difficult to prove this sort of intent outside of a work of fiction. There's many reasons why any given person would lie in the first place....You'll find that people use the term gaslighting to describe how people react to a lie itself - rather than the underlying intent behind that lie.

The point I'm trying to make is that, regardless of how you define "gaslighting," the crazy-making effect created by BPDers is primarily caused by their thought distortions, not by lies. Whereas a "lie" is a deliberate attempt to deceive, the BPDers' false accusations usually arise from subconscious projections, not from conscious attempts to deceive. Because BPDers sincerely believe most of the outrageous accusations coming out of their mouths, they tend to be far more convincing -- thus having a much greater crazy-making effect on their partners -- than is the case for deliberate deceivers like narcissists and sociopaths.

 

As to the term "gaslighting," I don't care how one chooses to define it because it is not a technical term. Yet, when a person uses it to mean deliberate deception -- as most people do -- I don't like to see it applied to BPD behavior for the reason I just gave.

 

That said, I nonetheless would agree with you that, outside works of fiction, it can be very difficult to distinguish deliberate attempts to deceive from the unintentional thought distortions caused by fear. My BPDer exW, for example, would sometimes lie if she felt cornered and had no other way to save face. But the vast majority of her false accusations seemed to arise from thought distortions. I say "seemed" because I would have driven myself crazy if I had tried to tease apart the few lies from the multitude of thought distortions.

[Hopeful714]

So,then by what I'm gathering, whether or not the gaslighting is "intentional" or not..... depends on the disorder?

 

And, if its non intentional....the perpetrator actually "believes" the lies where as if its intentional, they know the lie is false?

 

How would the layperson decipher if the perpetrator believes their lies or not to know if they were intentional or not?

[chelsea2011]

So,then by what I'm gathering, whether or not the gaslighting is "intentional" or not..... depends on the disorder?

 

And, if its non intentional....the perpetrator actually "believes" the lies where as if its intentional, they know the lie is false?

 

How would the layperson decipher if the perpetrator believes their lies or not to know if they were intentional or not?

 

Google "Disturbed Characters;" it defines the difference between neurosis (most likely a BPD'r) and a person who simply lacks the the ability to feel guilt and shame. There is a distinct difference between a person who lacks guilt and shame and someone who is neurotic. One of the biggest differences is that a distubed character knows exactly what they are doing and do it on purpose. Google it; it will set you free if you're involved with one.

 

I think gaslighting is more associated with a disturbed character than a neurotic like a BPD'r.

Edited April 8, 2014 by chelsea2011

[Downtown]

So, then by what I'm gathering, whether or not the gaslighting is "intentional" or not..... depends on the disorder?

ThatMan, M30, and I were saying essentially the same thing but differing in semantics -- using the term "gaslighting" differently because it is not a technical term that has been defined by the psychiatric community. Instead, it is a popularized term that laymen use in various ways. If Wikipedia and Urban Dictionary are to be believed, the most common usage is to imply deliberate deception and manipulation, which are NPD and ASPD traits.

If its non intentional....the perpetrator actually "believes" the lies where as if its intentional, they know the lie is false?

Yes, mostly. I nonetheless would not say "believes the lies" because, if the person believes the allegation is true, they are not lying. By definition, a lie is a deliberate deception.

How would the layperson decipher if the perpetrator believes their lies or not to know if they were intentional or not?

If you look ONLY at the individual allegations, you may find it impossible to distinguish the lies (deliberate deceptions) from the projections (false claims that are sincerely believed). This is one reason it can be so helpful to look at the person's whole pattern of behavior to see if it strongly matches the warning signs for NPD, ASPD, or BPD.

 

If you are seeing most of the NPD or ASPD traits at a strong and persistent level, you very likely are being lied to when the claim seems false. If you are seeing BPD red flags, however, you likely are seeing projections -- but not necessarily because BPDers will occasionally lie when you corner them. As I said earlier, I believed that the vast majority of outrageous allegations coming out of my BPDer exW's mouth were projections -- but I would have driven myself crazy if I had attempted to tease the occasional lies away from all the projections.

[imtooconfused]

Whether Gaslighting can be unintentional or only intentional, whether it is performed by an NPD, BPD or a "disturbed character" matters not to me. In fact, it reminds me of arguing about the number of angles that can fit on the head of a pin.

 

What I do know is that being told the things that I know that I experienced in my life didn't actually happen and that I did things that I know that I did not do is very disorienting and if done repeatedly is abusive. Arguing about what is and what is not Gaslighting distracts from the opportunity to learn the skills needed to protect oneself from abuse.

[Hopeful714]

Sure, lies and gaslighting are all abuse. Whether the lies are intentional or not, they both are deceptions...which are abusive...therefore making me want to be away from the person telling them.

 

However, for some reason, I am feeling a bit of sympathy for the non- intentional liar where as I feel more hatred towards the intentional liar because the intentional liar seems to have more a "choice" and chooses to deceive knowing its wrong.

 

I realize I'm hen pecking this to death.

 

I'm curious though now..why NPD was removed from the DSM recently because the "traits" along with no guilt, remorse and empathy certainly seem like a disorder to me. Or, is NPD now considered antisocial PD? Personally I think NPD is closer to sociopathy and psychopathy...which both may be antisocial. Hmmm.

Edited April 11, 2014 by Hopeful714

[Raena]

Gaslighting makes you doubt yourself, your perceptions, and sense of reality.

 

 

example, cheating husband meets up with mistress frequently, tells you he goes for coffee with buddies. You come across reason to think he's up to no good, and it becomes your fault for doubting him... he turns the scenario onto you, claiming you're just trying to start a fight, or you have trust issues (even though you should), etc etc. If he is seasoned with this, you actually feel badly for starting the fight with him over his whereabouts and feel bad for questioning his faithfulness. That's cause the gas(his manipulation) has got to you and you question your own behavior over the situation, even though a 3rd party would say your behavior is justified.

 

Yes! This describes my ex to a T. I caught him red-handed lying to me about his OW and he turned it around and made it about me. By the time he was done, he had me convinced that I was just imagining things. It's pure craziness.

 

Now that he's been gone for several months I'm really starting to see that this was something he did to me on a regular basis. He had me questioning everything about who I am and convinced me that I was a stupid ignoramus about everything.

 

I can point back, now, to countless episodes just like the first one I mentioned. Countless times he convinced me that what I saw happen, what I heard happen, what I wrote about in my journal as happening, didn't really happen the way I remembered it.

 

The worst part about this is... now I'm so SUPER sensitive to trusting my own memories that it caused a huge fight with my mother the other night. Somehow we got to talking about stuff that happened when I was a teen and she remembers it completely differently than I remember it. I got SO MAD at her that I was raising my voice at her. This is not something I normally do, and I certainly don't do it to my mother, the one person in this world that I respect more than anyone. After I thought about it, I realized WHY I was so upset. The fact is, she's nearly 80 years old. She probably doesn't remember what happened on that night in question. I do. But she argued about it with me and told me I was wrong and oh, that just set me off. I'll be damned if I'll ever let anyone, ever again, convince me that I don't remember a traumatic event clearly.

 

Dealing with the aftermath of a "gaslighter" is very difficult and I suspect it will take me a long time before I get over it.

[Downtown]

I'm curious though now..why NPD was removed from the DSM recently because the "traits" along with no guilt, remorse and empathy certainly seem like a disorder to me.

Hopeful, NPD was not removed. The APA (American Psychiatric Assoc.) had assigned a committee to the task of revising the 10 PDs (personality disorders) for the new diagnostic manual released in May 2013 (DSM-5). Over the past two decades, it had become painfully obvious that the ten PD categories needed to be consolidated.

 

Empirical studies had revealed that anyone diagnosed as having one PD typically was also being diagnosed as having one or two other PDs as well. This was an embarassment to the psychiatric community because, given that a client has only one personality, it seems silly for therapists to be declaring that he has two or three different personality disorders.

 

In early 2012, that committee had tentatively proposed to consolidate the 10 PDs into 5 categories. Yet, there was such an immediate uproar that NPD was quickly added back to the list. Hence, when the APA membership finally voted on the proposal in December 2012, there were six PD categories (including NPD).

 

An even bigger proposed change was the replacement of the dichotomous approach with a graduated approach. Because all PDs are spectrum disorders that we all have to some degree, it has been an embarassment for several decades that the diagnostic manual treats PDs -- like chickenpox -- as something one "has" or "doesn't have."

 

Although both of those changes have long been needed, the APA membership rejected these proposals, with the result that DSM-5 shows the same 10 PDs and diagnostic criteria used in the old DSM-IV. Although most of the APA membership recognizes the need for these improvements, they nonetheless wanted to wait for the results of ongoing empirical studies before making such sweeping changes.

[VeronicaRoss]

First of all, I'm sorry you went through that. It's confusing and devastating and clings to your psyche. Blech.

 

Found it interesting the discussion around personality disorders. I've had a step-mother and a couple of boyfriends with BPD. They're amazing manipulators. Simply amazing. They love to create sides.

 

My husband is a psych nurse practitioner. He believes my ex who had a long history of quiet gamesmanship, constantly creating romantic triangles while playing the inept victim, as a BPD.

 

He said men present differently than female BPDs, they're usually not as flamboyant and dramatic, quite the opposite. My ex has been married to the same woman for 25 years, so he isn't the obvious 'casanova'. But he has near constant emotional affairs. Here is the thread about what I experienced.

 

The best advice I could offer you is that they are very careful to send deliberate, confusing, contrary messages so you keep on going back to the thing you hope for, while they sting you further when you get closest. It's a no win situation. Just stay as far away as you can.

[SpiralOut]

I was gaslighted much of my life by my own mother. It doesn't matter if it is intentional or not. It is what it is - someone screwing with your sense of reality. In my case, I was often told what my own feelings were. If I said I didn't like something, I would be "corrected" and told that I actually did enjoy it. It's extremely disrespectful.

 

My only advice is to write things down in a journal. That way if someone tries to tell you that something never happened, you can look over your own records and know that you didn't "just forget" it or "make it all up."