an issue

[Cathy7]

Dear All,

 

I have a fantastic boyfriend now, such a caring, loving person. We are together for several months living in the same city now.But his apartment is in a terrible mess. I know it is not mine and he has a complete right to his own space but it is absolutely a mess which makes me want to faint. I also feel sort of bad being there, I mean I always try to make my place at least ok when I invite someone. It doesn't have to be super great - even if it's modest, I think one can always make it clean or at least orderly. For me this is a huge drawback. It's not just a mess, it is something absolutely beyond a regular mess. He promised to clean it but I see that it probably won't happen. With all this issue, he is still the best human being I've ever known and I'm so privileged to share the same city with him, but also so worried about the future. it looks like we have different priorities there. Is cleanliness important to you too? Would it be an issue/a deal breaker? What would you do were you in my place? I know it's hard to say. Thanks so much in advance!

 

Cathy

[salparadise]

It would be an issue for me (I'm a man). If you're dating with a potential future in mind, this data point will come up as an issue again in some form. If the guy never picks up, cleans a bathroom, and doesn't have any sense of cleanliness or order it will drive you crazy when you live together. The only solution will be to pick up after him and assume ALL of the responsibility for his slobbery. You'll resent it and lose respect and positive regard.

 

There is something psychologically different about people who choose to live in filth rather than clean up their space. I don't know what it is exactly, but it's not good. I think it may be in the area of executive functioning (frontal cortex), and indicate a deficit in planning and preparing for the future. It certainly indicates the ability to ignore stuff that needs attention now and procrastinate (maybe someday thinking).

 

I know you love the guy and don't want to make waves, but I think you need to figure out if he can change. Otherwise it's going to be like raising a child.

[Beendaredonedat]

If you were to marry this man or if you were to live with him, you would be the one doing all the cleaning, likely the cooking and everything else to do with keeping an orderly house and home humming along. Eventually you will resent having to do everything and you will be here again asking us how you can change him.

 

There is only one way to change someone like him who has been taught that the woman (his mommy) is there to do all the cleaning and cooking and laundry and anything else needed to keep a house and home humming along. The way to change someone like him is to STOP ENABLING HIM to be that way. You have spoken to him about it before and nothing changes so now you have to leave him due to your incompatibility and dismal chances of the relationship lasting a lifetime. If you stay after telling him that its unacceptable to you then you are enabling his behavior.

 

Me? I would have left him the minute I first saw the squalor he is quite content to live in. It says a lot about him actually (and none of it is an attribute).

Edited July 5, 2019 by Beendaredonedat

[Cathy7]

Salparadise, thank you. It is a huge issue for me as well and it also has to do with procrastination I think. I'm in two minds - if the situation does not change, we will be facing plenty of problems in the future, on the other hand - how can I let go of a perfectly good heart. We will be definitely trying to work through this issue. thank you for sharing your point of view - it makes me feel like I'm not the only one feeling this way about it!

[alphamale]

don't move in together Cat7; problem solved

[preraph]

He's a lazy slob. Apparently his parents didn't prepare him to be an adult and do things like this.

 

I'm lazy about housework as well, so I get help with it every now and then. I live alone, so I don't feel my house has to be prepared for company constantly. But when you're young and seeing someone and when I was young and having lots of company I kept my apartment clean before company came over and tried not to let it slide too far in between.

 

He doesn't want to do it and he's not going to and he's probably manipulating you into doing it because he knows it bothers you and that you'll just eventually do it just like his mother did. Don't move in with him or anything. There's no reason to think he's going to change.

 

Tell him if he's not going to do housework Vinny needs to hire a maid to do it once a week or twice every month or whatever.

[Cathy7]

BeenDareDoneDat, thank you. Deep inside I feel like this too - I am afraid of the future. I do love this man - that is mainly why I didn't make this very first step you would probably rightly take - I didn't want to break his heart and also I hoped that he would solve it out. Changes are not happening but still, he is so loving. I do appreciate your advice here. I've read on some webpage that cmplaining about boyfriend's excessive mess is not right, as it is his private space. I accepted this argumentation, but still feel that it tells a lot about the future..as you said.

[The Outlaw]

I may brush it off at first, but it would become an issue. I have my own place and I keep it pretty tidy, but I can do so much better. But some people just don't mind living surrounded by clutter or in filth. But that's something I just couldn't do.

[Beendaredonedat]

BeenDareDoneDat, thank you. Deep inside I feel like this too - I am afraid of the future. I do love this man - that is mainly why I didn't make this very first step you would probably rightly take - I didn't want to break his heart and also I hoped that he would solve it out. Changes are not happening but still, he is so loving. I do appreciate your advice here. I've read on some webpage that cmplaining about boyfriend's excessive mess is not right, as it is his private space. I accepted this argumentation, but still feel that it tells a lot about the future..as you said.

 

I think it's a good idea that you sit down with him and let him know your expectations and if he's unable or unwilling to keep things tidy then he get himself someone to come in every other week to do it for him because you don't want to be the one that ends up doing everything. You should also find out how he feels about doing his part when/if you get to the stage of ever having children because chances are high that he's going to expect you do all of that by yourself as well.

 

These are things that all couples should be discussing to make sure you are both on the same page. If more couples actually did discuss differences and expectations and deal breakers etc. before they got married or live together, there would be less divorce and common law marriage breakdowns.

 

Good luck. I hope he values you enough to want to make the changes that would not only benefit you and the relationship but him as well. A sense of accomplishment and order will surely make him feel better about just about everything.

[Cathy7]

Thank you! I really appreciate your perspective. We already had some conversations about it and we will definitely have more, I will make it clear that it is not acceptable to live this way. His argument is a very busy professional life, which is true, but we both have it and I can't imagine keeping my flat this way. I try to balance the conversation between being delicate and not hurtful and not invading his space and also letting him know that it won't work this way. I really hope we will find a solution because I really do care a lot for him but definitely I will not allow myself to end up in the middle of it.

 

 

I think it's a good idea that you sit down with him and let him know your expectations and if he's unable or unwilling to keep things tidy then he get himself someone to come in every other week to do it for him because you don't want to be the one that ends up doing everything. You should also find out how he feels about doing his part when/if you get to the stage of ever having children because chances are high that he's going to expect you do all of that by yourself as well.

 

These are things that all couples should be discussing to make sure you are both on the same page. If more couples actually did discuss differences and expectations and deal breakers etc. before they got married or live together, there would be less divorce and common law marriage breakdowns.

 

Good luck. I hope he values you enough to want to make the changes that would not only benefit you and the relationship but him as well. A sense of accomplishment and order will surely make him feel better about just about everything.

[preraph]

I wholeheartedly agree with BBDT that this is a preview of how useless he will be once you have kids. You'll end up being the only one doing anything unless he just feels like playing with them. He'll be one of the kids and twice as aggravating because you'll be exhausted. This is not someone to settle down with. Him saying it's because he's busy professionally -- fine, then do what I do and hire someone. That's not the reason though. There are people good at it and people who aren't. I'm not good at it, but I also NEVER just leave something laying around. Everything has a place and nothing just gets left on a table. There's never a sock on the floor and rarely dishes piled up. But I'm not good at keeping the place dusted, polished and mopped. I dustmop one room at a time and it's rarely all done at once without help.

 

But now people who leave stuff laying around AND don't clean, that's a double problem. My sister is one of those, but she will also have a maid come in, so her home is often cleaner than my own. I used her maid for a while, but she demands cash and also likes to move my stuff around and I know where all my stuff is and want it to stay right there. Like she took an electric surge protector that I had on one of my nighttables and moved it under the bed where I couldn't reach it, and I plug my phone into it every night. Annoying. She thinks she knows best, but she doesn't. So I need to find a new one.

[Flame Aura]

I'm not the best at tidying up and cleaning but every single time my girlfriend stays at mine I spend 1-2 hours without fail cleaning, dusting, changing the bed sheets etc, and I mean EVERY time.

 

 

It's all fine me living how I want but when there's someone else it's only right to make an effort, especially as she's a bit OCD when it comes to this stuff. She's always pushing me to maintain cleanliness as she knows one day we will buy a house together. So lucky to have her.

[alphamale]

what's the deal with women and cleanliness? also, why do women always have to mask/hide odors they find offensive?

[salparadise]

I do love this man - that is mainly why I didn't make this very first step you would probably rightly take - I didn't want to break his heart and also I hoped that he would solve it out. Changes are not happening but still, he is so loving.

 

Since you have already tried the soft approach and nothing changed, I'd say a more straight up statement of fact is in order. You need to inform him that it's a dealbreaker. He may not even realize you're that serious. If he's super busy with a good career then surely he can afford to hire a service. If not, then at least he will have been given proper notice and can't say otherwise.

 

Here's the problem though... if you force him to clean up, or to reluctantly hire a service, it still doesn't change the predisposition. This is inherent, not something one can easily change, and certainly not something a third party can change. I think if you try to make a life with him then you will always be the one responsible for maintaining the domicile (alone). If you are affluent and can have a service you might be able to accept it easier. But I think a large amount of acceptance will be necessary regardless.

 

So perhaps you just need to come to an understanding on your own as to whether this is something you can accept or not. If you're going to end up accepting it then there's no point in fighting a battle, and if you can't, there's no point in fighting a battle.

[mark clemson]

what's the deal with women and cleanliness? also, why do women always have to mask/hide odors they find offensive?

 

It's not just women, many men too. I'm actually a "clutter OK" (filth definitely not) person myself. As my wife is as well it works out ok. I'd like to think it's not a cognitive deficit, more a tolerance level sort of thing (but who am I kidding).

 

We do clean up for company, so it works out ok.

[chillii]

Yeah , nothin to do with growing up , my ex was spoiled rotten never did one thing before she left home, nothin

But she was great in her own place.

Some people just don't giva fk , some midway, some are like a nazi camp, they're worse than slobs to me.

All you can do is keep nudging him, ahhh, that's nudging not nagging him shytless.

And see where it goes and whether you can live with it.

He'll probably get a little bit better with that but he'll never be like you.

[Arieswoman]

preraph #6 nails it here;

 

 

He doesn't want to do it and he's not going to and he's probably manipulating you into doing it because he knows it bothers you and that you'll just eventually do it just like his mother did. Don't move in with him or anything. There's no reason to think he's going to change.

 

 

When I met my first husband he lived in a student house. It was a dump. I mistakenly thought that when we had our own place it would be better. It wasn't. The only time it got cleaned was if I did it.

 

 

Some men are just happy to live like pigs in $h!£ and it doesn't bother them, so let them stay there

[Mr. Lucky]

I really hope we will find a solution because I really do care a lot for him but definitely I will not allow myself to end up in the middle of it.

 

Every person I've met who lives as you've described has let other things go also - personal hygiene, car maintenance, etc.

 

You're getting a free preview of the future, at least you've been warned...

 

Mr. Lucky

[Curiousroxy86]

I just feel like its a losing battle exerting so much energy trying to change a person in a relationship and its normally not going to be for the better if that person is not willing to truly change

 

you will get resentful and he sure will get resentful if this becomes a reoccurring conversation

 

I am of the believe that you either find ways to accept someones flaws as is or if something really bothers you to the point that your not accepting then you talk about it ONE TIME in the sweetest way possible. if he is still being the way he is (predictably ) or still doing the "intolerable" behavior then your only other choice besides accepting is to let each other go and just go your separate ways. because trying to stay with someone yet trying to change them often times is futile because they wont change if they really dont want to and heck people who do want to change still have a very hard time changing when they have been like that for awhile.

 

Also you will just end up being the controlling nag of a partner that cant love your partner as is and let them be happy. thats something nobody wants to be or deal with in a relationship. and its easy to think that trying to maintain a relationship depending upon change from the other person is okay when its a behavior that your really not okay with or that most people wouldnt be okay with. it gives a "im in the right" and "he is in the wrong" feel and that "he should be this way" and "he should do this for me". but if you turned the tables around to think what if I had a boyfriend who cold not stand one of my flaws yet try to stay with me only if I change and is focused on making me a problem that needs to be fixed then you can really understand how demeaning that feels to be with someone like that no matter what the behavior is. you need to know that he is perfectly fine living the way that he lives. so if you cant handle it and you already talked about it once then there should be no "working at this relationship" when the real agenda is trying to get him to change for you to be happy. change is your responsibility if you want to change yourself. change is also his responsibility if he wants to change his own self. if one doesnt want to change or struggles to change yet change is vital for the other to stay in the relationship and remain a good partner then the other just need to accept or leave.

[JuneL]

To be honest, this would be a dealbreaker for me.

 

I don’t think it’s wise for you to talk to him again, if your gentle reminders fell on deaf ears. He has to want his own place to be decently tidy. You are not his mother. Oh, and I don’t agree that his parents didn’t prepare him to be an adult; this assumption might have been convincing if he just moved out of his parents house a few months ago, but people learn quickly after suffering from the consequences of their own doing.

 

My cleaning lady used to clean a place of a busy single guy every single week, and she told me his was such a messy place (his clothes were all over the floors). His place may look good for a day or two after each cleaning. I don’t think hiring help can solve their issues, unfortunately.

 

It’s also puzzling how he thought it’s okay to invite others over to his garbage dump of a place.

Edited July 6, 2019 by JuneL

[FMW]

He's not going to change because it's clearly not important to him. My xH was like that. If I didn't clean up after him it just didn't get done. I tested the theory - he really just didn't care if things were messy. But it drove me crazy, so I continued doing the cleanup.

 

It's one of many things I grew to be very resentful of over time.

 

Never expect things that you don't like about someone to change. It usually just gets harder over time to let it go - your irritation and resentment will pop up in the middle of some other disagreement.

[d0nnivain]

I'm the messy one. Always have been.

 

He won't change.

 

You can offer to clean his place or hire somebody to do it. Then you have to encourage him to hire a cleaning person.

 

Any expectation you have that he will clean regularly & to your standards are unrealistic. So the Q becomes is this truly a deal breaker? If so act accordingly.

[Tamfana]

My son in law was like your BF in that way, messy and not a cleaner. When he and my daughter married, he paid for a weekly maid as his share of the cleaning chores. But unexpectedly he went all in on the Marie Kondo “tidying” method. He just loved the cleaning out phase. I think it helped that he took his collection of comic books to a resale comic book shop and two ~10 year old boys went bananas when they saw the collection so he gave it to them. They literally jumped up and down and hugged each other. Joy all around. SIL went home so happy. Maybe turn him on to Marie Kondo?

[alphamale]

who's marie knodo?

[Cathy7]

Dear All, thank you for all your comments and perspectives. I appreciate all of them, and see it also both ways: on the one hand, it is unacceptable. On the other hand, i don't want to be this grumpy woman who complains all the time about my boyfriend's space. Thank you for recommending Maria Kondo's method - I also checked it out and I think that it turns cleaning into a healing process. I have no doubt that my boyfriend would be happier if he ordered his space. So actually he said that I do not have faith in him in terms of him making the order plus its his own space plus he said he will make it better and that he appreciates a clean space as well. We sort of compromised and let's see what happens. He says that his space is different from "our" space which would be clean. I really don't want to lose him. I really wouldn't be able to live like that too. Let's see what happens.