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The one who cares less has all the power


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I am taking a break from dating, so this is speculative.

 

From my past two almost-relationships I think this is true in the first few weeks/months of dating - the one who cares less (about the person and/or outcome) has all the power. In the beginning it always seems like women have all the power when men are pursuing. That is until a woman realizes the man's potential and puts her guard down after a few dates.

 

For me it always ends up the same - in the beginning they idealize me and then suddenly the dynamics change as soon as I start to like someone. It almost seems like they notice it and I seem like less of a challenge, and they stop being so eager to make things work. Side note: on my side I know I also have a secondary issue - from being cool about things, I suddenly become anxious about making things work when I like someone (see my other threads on why, not sure if relevant to this discussion).

 

I know people will say this kind of thinking is like playing games, that you should be authentic about how you're feeling. That vulnerability is a good thing and brings you true love. Or that it was the wrong person, and that's why it didn't work. But if the dynamics always changes whenever you put your guard down, wouldn't you start naturally thinking you should just have your guard up for longer, do everything you can not to be really invested in the beginning and taking things VERY slowly? Is that the way to go?

 

I felt I was open for love in the past months but the two experiences burned me and made me feel super guarded, self protective and that next time I date someone I will just hold my feelings and let them guess for quite a few weeks.

 

Ugh I can't say I like this, I like being authentic, but I guess this is not working for me. Perhaps one better preserve their emotions by being the one who's "calmer/cooler" about the relationship? Does this make sense?

 

Do we really have to stop giving a f for things to work with someone in the beginning? Thoughts?

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Eternal Sunshine

The problem is, all that's left in our dating pool after a certain age are players, peter pans and/or avoidants. Hard to make it work with any of them regardless of what you do.

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I would say that this is happening because you are playing the role of being pursued in the start. Then you change and become your true self. This means that men don't know who you truly are until they have been around for long enough to know the real you. Playing games may work well in the start, but doesn't lay foundations for the long term.

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Side note: on my side I know I also have a secondary issue - from being cool about things, I suddenly become anxious about making things work when I like someone

 

 

I think that may be very relevant.

So you turn from being cool and in control to an anxious Annie.

Dating is supposed to be easy, comfortable and fun.

Annie doesn't sound like she is much fun to hang around with.

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The problem is, all that's left in our dating pool after a certain age are players, peter pans and/or avoidants. Hard to make it work with any of them regardless of what you do.

 

 

^^^This^^^

 

...and this is why you need to be authentic and true to yourself, as trying to mould yourself to fit into these kind of guy's lives will no doubt ruin you.

 

They are selfish types who will take, take and take if you let them.

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One way or another for whatever reason , as they get to know you they lose it.

It really just boils down to that basically, the same would probably happen whatever you did because sooner or later you have to be yourself.

Just save yourself a whole lotta trouble and just be yourself , that way they see you from day one and if they don't like that then it'll be all outa the way before it even starts.

 

As for not giving a fk , if someones only looking to score and sleep around l guess that whole things a game anyway , but for someone that wants something real and lasting , then the same thing as now is just gonna happen anyway when the real you comes out.

If you want real then you gotta be real to my mind it's the only way or your just living on borrowed time.

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I would say that this is happening because you are playing the role of being pursued in the start. Then you change and become your true self. This means that men don't know who you truly are until they have been around for long enough to know the real you. Playing games may work well in the start, but doesn't lay foundations for the long term.

 

I was going to say the same thing!

 

Edgygirl you are generally guarded and afraid of being vulnerable. Why not try to show enthusiasm from the very beginning? If you get rejected early no big deal because you haven't invested and feelings are not strong yet, so you have little to lose.

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They don't disappear because you care. They disappear because you become anxious which probably manifests in ways you don't notice or comprehend. That anxiety drives them away.

 

You need to work on your confidence. Everybody does get nervous. The trick is not to show it. You have to learn to be a duck. On the surface everything looks calm & serene like the duck is gliding effortlessly through the water. Under the water, those little legs & webbed feet are going a mile a minute.

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Edgygirl you are generally guarded and afraid of being vulnerable. Why not try to show enthusiasm from the very beginning? If you get rejected early no big deal because you haven't invested and feelings are not strong yet, so you have little to lose.

 

I agree. There are nuances to the kind of enthusiasm you exude. You can show enthusiasm for a person without being invested in a specific outcome. It may be the big switch from feigning demure to anxious attachment that blows it up. Whereas it would be a subtle shift from early, superficial enthusiasm to becoming more invested.

 

I also agree that two anxious-avoidant types probably aren't a good match because they'll drive each other nuts until the fear of vulnerability in one or both triggers their flight response. A secure type would be able to tolerate vulnerability and also sooth and reassure the anxious partner.

 

Pretending or being inauthentic gets old really fast. You won't feel connected to yourself or the other person. Being slower to invest seriously could be thought of as enthusiastic yet happy-go-lucky if you can hold back feeling invested a little longer. In other words, try subtle adjustments that keep you in the authentic space rather than switching modes altogether.

 

I guess there's a lid for every pot, but I don't get how feigning disinterest works anyway. Maybe I'm not a typical male. I gave up on one of the best prospects I've had due to her being slow to communicate, having to schedule dates too far out, and generally not receiving the signals that keep my enthusiasm high. And she was the one who contacted me initially and expressed interest. It was confusing as hell. Sometimes I think about contacting her again and just being honest about why I dropped away... but then I think, nah that's just who she is. I see no reason whatsoever to keep trying to engage with a woman who is acting reticent.

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Eternal,

 

 

The problem is, all that's left in our dating pool after a certain age are players, peter pans and/or avoidants. Hard to make it work with any of them regardless of what you do.

 

 

Depending on what age-group you refer to, that's partially correct.

 

 

There are also people who haven't been available previously because; they've been a carer for an elderly parent/partner, they've been in the armed forces, they are widowed/a widower, they've been out of the country working and want to come home and settle down.

 

 

You just need to cast your net wider and not look in the usual places :)

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I get why you’re saying this but I don’t feel I play. I’m selectively open only to those I match with, (I’m picky and hardly swiped right) but if I match with someone I do show enthusiasm from the start. If you mean I don’t call and book dates in the first 6ish dates, that’s true.

 

Perhaps the thing is when I start being into someone lately, I do change from being fun and cool to being anxious about the outcome. Maybe that’s the change that makes them wonder - where is the fun woman that was here?

 

This doesn’t happen when I’m not more invested or care a little less than they do about the relationship, as the man I dated before my 10 month break. He wanted to introduce me to his parents but I broke up as I wasn’t feeling it.

 

I would say that this is happening because you are playing the role of being pursued in the start. Then you change and become your true self. This means that men don't know who you truly are until they have been around for long enough to know the real you. Playing games may work well in the start, but doesn't lay foundations for the long term.
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Then take baby steps. Right now you aren't calling or initiating during the 1st 6 dates. That is a lot of standoffishness. Try reaching out every so often in the beginning & try something new: You organize & pay for the 3rd date.

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While I occasionally do run into avoidants - I think the last man was one, and I’m working now on recognizing the signs, I’ve been good at recognizing players and peter pans and don’t match with them. Mainly I know for sure three of the guys I liked most in the last few years went on to get married.

 

The problem is, all that's left in our dating pool after a certain age are players, peter pans and/or avoidants.
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I’ve been wondering indeed if I seem standofish sometimes. I think I got influenced by reading LS and other places that men lose enthusiasm if you take initiative early on so I took it as a gospel. Also I’ve dated men that book dates when we are still on a date, or are quick to book the next one, and I’ve used that kind of metric to gauge their interest. I prob shouldn’t do that.

 

You’re also right about your anxiety / duck comment. That’s one of the hardest things for me to do when I do like someone though. But it’s kinda getting worse with age. I’m working on controlling my anxiety and expectations.

 

Then take baby steps. Right now you aren't calling or initiating during the 1st 6 dates. That is a lot of standoffishness. Try reaching out every so often in the beginning & try something new: You organize & pay for the 3rd date.
Edited by edgygirl
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I've been wondering about your first phrase of course. Because I don't feel I have problem attracting suitors. Something happens after we hang out for a few dates.

 

I think I am myself since the beginning. But a shady side of me has been emerging when I do like and see potential with someone... I get anxious about the outcome earlier than I should. Must be because I am tired of being single and it's so relieving to find someone you like, you want it to work already.

 

One way or another for whatever reason , as they get to know you they lose it.

It really just boils down to that basically, the same would probably happen whatever you did because sooner or later you have to be yourself.

Just save yourself a whole lotta trouble and just be yourself , that way they see you from day one and if they don't like that then it'll be all outa the way before it even starts.

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What can I say sal, you probably nailed it. I think from now on instead of getting anxious about the outcome I will just try to live in the present (really hard for me).

 

I believe the anxious-avoidant thing is exactly what happened with the last person I dated. My LTRs and the guy I married were for sure secure types. They didn't trigger the anxiety I've been experiencing with some people.

 

I must say I think I'm anxious avoidant myself... I have been known to breakup with boyfriends who were too into me in the past - it's almost as if I lose interest when people are too available - which contradicts me wanting to find a real relationship. But it's a pattern I'm finally noticing. At the same time, I become anxious when I'm super interested in someone. It's a little hell. Depending on the person I'm with, the above manifests more or less or doesn't manifest at all. I married the man I didn't feel either anxious nor avoidant with. But I don't feel my anxious/avoidant ways are healthy or normal, and I will try to be working on diminishing those strong sensations.I am reading on why they happen (childhood etc).

 

Looking back, I think I created this thread in response to feeling anxious when I like someone. I naively thought maybe if I just don't show when I'm too interested, it will work better. But I guess that's a simplistic way to try to solve a problem that's deeper than that.

 

I wonder if sometimes I send the same vibes as the woman you've dated. I think I try to show less interest in the first 6ish dates so I don't seem too eager. Yes you should tell people why before dropping them - we would all be so much better if we knew why, it helps you adjust and grow next time.

 

I agree. There are nuances to the kind of enthusiasm you exude. You can show enthusiasm for a person without being invested in a specific outcome. It may be the big switch from feigning demure to anxious attachment that blows it up. Whereas it would be a subtle shift from early, superficial enthusiasm to becoming more invested.

 

I also agree that two anxious-avoidant types probably aren't a good match because they'll drive each other nuts until the fear of vulnerability in one or both triggers their flight response. A secure type would be able to tolerate vulnerability and also sooth and reassure the anxious partner.

 

Pretending or being inauthentic gets old really fast. You won't feel connected to yourself or the other person. Being slower to invest seriously could be thought of as enthusiastic yet happy-go-lucky if you can hold back feeling invested a little longer. In other words, try subtle adjustments that keep you in the authentic space rather than switching modes altogether.

 

I guess there's a lid for every pot, but I don't get how feigning disinterest works anyway. Maybe I'm not a typical male. I gave up on one of the best prospects I've had due to her being slow to communicate, having to schedule dates too far out, and generally not receiving the signals that keep my enthusiasm high. And she was the one who contacted me initially and expressed interest. It was confusing as hell. Sometimes I think about contacting her again and just being honest about why I dropped away... but then I think, nah that's just who she is. I see no reason whatsoever to keep trying to engage with a woman who is acting reticent.

Edited by edgygirl
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While I occasionally do run into avoidants - I think the last man was one, and I’m working now on recognizing the signs, I’ve been good at recognizing players and peter pans and don’t match with them. Mainly I know for sure three of the guys I liked most in the last few years went on to get married.

 

How did you know what happened to them after dating you? Did you stay in touch with the men you dated in the past? Were these 3 men married before they met you?

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Everybody has their own dating / relationship sabotages.

 

When I was younger I was very aggressive. I'd make a lot of jokes in an effort to keep men at arm's length. It got me a lot of dates but not a lot of relationships. I also was a bit of a female player. The minute some guy got too serious or said words like "love", "commitment" "girlfriend" etc. I bolted.

 

As I matured, I recognized that I still possessed many "alpha male" tendencies & wanted to wrest control of the relationship away from the guy. I like being in charge. I think it was the Millionaire Matchmaker lady on TV that would give advice about letting men lead in the bedroom because that should not be a power struggle. It was particularly tough for women millionaires who owned their own companies & were used to being in charge.

 

I tried to be more passive when I first started dating DH. I found it very frustrating because he is not a planner & that made me crazy. Out balance is I go off in the 9 directions I can process simultaneously. He lets me & shows up for the ones that interest him. I don't give him grief for the stuff he doesn't want to do but he doesn't hold me back from doing whatever. If it's really important for one or the other, we talk about that one thing & try to compromise. For example, last summer he went the west coast to see his buddies & I stayed home to attend a wedding. It still boggles DH's mind how much info I can process simultaneously.

 

Part of it is about being true to yourself & being confident enough to pull it off. If you want to call a man or arrange a date do it because you like him & want to spend time with him not because you fear he's losing interest,

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I went NC with one of them, the last man I fell in love with, and the moron kept writing me a few emails for a year despite being with someone. I never responded. In the last email he told me he was thinking a lot about me lately... and that was engaged. UGHHH. Why do that? Why write someone to tell that???

 

Another one still is my FB friend. I saw he got married last year. I didn't care much though.

 

Third one I stalked. Coincidentally he met and married very quickly the woman the first guy above dated for years and dumped right before meeting me -- because he thought she was not that pretty and he didn't want ugly kids (yes he told me that! ugh.). Yet third guy married her.

 

How did you know what happened to them after dating you? Did you stay in touch with the men you dated in the past? Were these 3 men married before they met you?
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Thank you for sharing d0nnivain. I certainly do sabotage. In fact the first guy I dated in October (post 10m break) was certainly a secure type and told me on the second date: why are you sabotaging us? I was so shocked. I knew he was right. I was trying to find reasons why we were not a good match. He saw right through it. When "we" collapsed in the next few dates, I finally realized I have some kind of pattern, and that it's probably something I do, as the outcome has been very similar lately (guy mega excited, guy weirded out). Because of him I went on to explore psychological issues.

 

I am also on the alpha side and the last guy I dated Dec-Jan drove me crazy when he didn't plan that well. I attract a lot of beta men and it's kind of a turn off to me to have to take the initiative. Not because I feel I can't plan - I could... it's more that I try to avoid beta males who in the end I can't fall for as I don't feel I have respect for them. I guess I'd be fine with a non planner AFTER we are committed. In fact I don't even need too many plans or special dates when in a relationship. It's the initial stages that drive me crazy when a man is not a go-getter and swipe-you-off-your-feet romantically speaking.

 

But you are right - I should drop off the "how it should be" ideas and also take some initiative. In fact I try to internalize your posts to me and others when you give advice to being more proactive.

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I must say I think I'm anxious avoidant myself... I have been known to breakup with boyfriends who were too into me in the past - it's almost as if I lose interest when people are too available - which contradicts me wanting to find a real relationship. But it's a pattern I'm finally noticing.

 

I think this is true of most people, but also depends on the degree of the mismatched feelings. In other words, I think it's perfectly natural that people feel weirded out and lose interest if the mismatch is too great. Ideally feelings for one another will grow at approximately the same pace, and when that happens it feels validating and affirming. But if one falls in love instantly, and the other is six month to a year schedule, it's too far out of sync.

 

I was talking to a wonderful woman last June, and we met once. Next thing I know she was head over heels for me. I tried to tell her to slow down, but it was what it was. She was in love and I wasn't. She was so vulnerable and continuing didn't feel right. It would've been like taking advantage of the vulnerability... exactly the kind of situation a narcissist would want. Unlimited adoration while having little investment yourself. It just doesn't work. She's dating someone else now, but she check in with me from time to time, and I know it's to see if I'm ready to give it a go. She hasn't said as much, but I know she'd drop the other guy in a heartbeat. It's sad and complicated. I have enormous positive regard for her, but I'm not even close to being in love. If she had been able to slow it down it might have worked.

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Sorry forgot to answer your last question which I think is interesting - one of them (2nd guy in my post above) was married before. The other two were not.

 

First one was never married before but he was 40 and wanting to get married. I could tell he was serious about finding someone when we met.

 

Third one also not married before, I think he was around 45 when he got married. This one also seemed serious about finding someone. (I think most times I do gauge well when men are serious about finding someone).

 

Thing is, in my city a lot of people only get married in their 40s. It's not uncommon and I don't think it makes them peter pans. I don't think I cross a lot of players really.

 

Now... when they're 50 something and never married... which are the types I'm seeing a lot now... I do think they have some issue and might be peter pans, emotionally unavailable or avoidants. Damn, I am prob a fearful-avoidant myself and did get married once!... so these types must have some issue.

 

 

Were these 3 men married before they met you?
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That's the thing. I am so rarely interested in someone (it probably happens once every year or two... sometimes longer!) that when I do find someone I like I probably also come on too strong.

 

Sadly I get the woman you're talking about. So I'll try to remember your phrase below next time. I notice I did it with the last guy. That's when he started to pull away.

 

I only did it though because he also seemed super excited about me. He kept saying how perfect I seemed to him and that I was exactly what he was looking for (and the reasons he thought that do make sense, so it didn't seem like gratuitous love bombing).

 

I have enormous positive regard for her, but I'm not even close to being in love. If she had been able to slow it down it might have worked.
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I honestly think that if anyone's priority in a relationship is about making sure that they "have the power", they're shooting themselves in the foot before they've even begun.

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The problem is, all that's left in our dating pool after a certain age are players, peter pans and/or avoidants. Hard to make it work with any of them regardless of what you do.

 

That generalization about 'our dating pool after a certain age' (ladies) is close to a personal insult. I plead 'not guilty' to 'players, peter pans and/or avoidants'. Consider please the possibility of a man interested in and willing to 'try again' after a failed 'married with children' situation that kept him 'out of the game' for many decades.

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