BFF and her BF - big fight over women’s rights

[heavenonearth]

I recently had a conversation with my best friend about a problem in her relationship. She has been with her boyfriend since she was 16. She is now 23 and so is her boyfriend. My friend is a very educated woman - we went to university together, she cares about social justice, animals and the environment.

She’s very much involved in world affairs and loves to discuss current issues.

Her boyfriend however - he’s a bit of an oddball. He didn’t go to college and he’s rather interested in sports and partying. I couldn’t hold an interesting conversation with him about anything other than sports, to be honest.

They fit in many ways but i also sometimes feel she is a bit “ahead” of him in growing up. I am not sure if they will make it in the long run but they do love each other a lot.

 

So recently she read to him an opinion piece about current feminist issues (#metoo and related topics), as she wanted to talk to him about how she finds it important, how it relates to her and so on.

However, his response was completely shocking. He said he doesn’t understand why she is a feminist, and that he believes the world doesn’t need feminism “because women and men are equal by now”.

She tried to explain to him how one-dimensional and desillusioned his statement was, but he wouldn’t have it. They had a big fight about it and stopped talking.

 

I didnt really know what to advise her but she has realized that this hurt her a lot because she feels very much that her feelings are invalidated by him, and that her role as a woman in this world is not truly acknowledged by him.

 

I too said, that if it was my boyfriend, i would likely try to have a few more discussions before walking the other way. I am happy my partner sees me the way i feel i need to be seen, and he acknowledges my struggles as a woman in this world (including the inequalities that are still present even here in Western European countries, as well as issues pertaining to sexual harassment/assault and the like).

 

Especially because, should they decide to have children at some point, and it’d be a daughter, she would want for the father of her child to be educated on women’s rights issues and be there for his daughter when she questions the world and her own path in life.

 

What do you all think about this? Would this be a huge dealbreaker like it is for me and my friend? How would you go about leading a discussion on this issue with your partner?

 

I don’t want to advise her to end it, which is why i hope she can find a way to get through to him. I don’t think he is some malicious “meninist” or something, just uninformed.

 

Thoughts ?

[bathtub-row]

I think it's possible that his answer was made in a naive sense; that he already thinks men and women are equal and doesn't understand why it's still being talked about. If that's the case, then it speaks well of his attitude, at least. He may not be informed that it's still an issue in other circumstances.

 

Relationships that start as young as theirs did usually phase themselves out within a few years, unless by some miracle the two people grow at nearly the same rate. I don't get the sense that that's the case with these two and it's doubtful that the marriage will last. If it does, her respect for him will erode and that'll cause its own set of problems.

[heavenonearth]

I think it's possible that his answer was made in a naive sense; that he already thinks men and women are equal and doesn't understand why it's still being talked about. If that's the case, then it speaks well of his attitude, at least. He may not be informed that it's still an issue in other circumstances.

 

Relationships that start as young as theirs did usually phase themselves out within a few years, unless by some miracle the two people grow at nearly the same rate. I don't get the sense that that's the case with these two and it's doubtful that the marriage will last. If it does, her respect for him will erode and that'll cause its own set of problems.

 

 

I agree with the fact that she may eventually realize that they have been growing apart for quite some while.

But i don’t want to tell her what to do and rather help with how to bring them closer on this particular issue that is important to her.

Btw they are not married and don’t live together.

[bathtub-row]

I agree with the fact that she may eventually realize that they have been growing apart for quite some while.

But i don’t want to tell her what to do and rather help with how to bring them closer on this particular issue that is important to her.

Btw they are not married and don’t live together.

 

Oh, dang. I missed that. I thought I read that they were married. Well, that's a good thing that they're not.

 

I think we all dish out advice to others on this site about really serious issues in relationships but with my friends, I'm very cautious about causing a break-up because it can come back to bite you. Like, they could get back together and then you've got to back-peddle on everything that was said in the negative sense. Also, they may end up blaming you. So, I'd stay out of it if I were you. She's smart and has probably already seen the writing on the wall.

[preraph]

I agree they will likely not stay together forever. I know you occasionally see a highschool romance that lasts forever, but I've never seen even one in my 65 years, with anyone born after 1950, anyway, who had other options. I hope she didn't already have kids because it will make it simpler when the time comes.

 

Men don't like to be bothered with "issues," I've noticed, not many of them anyway. From his perspective without education, he may feel women are doing better than him overall, and maybe they are. A whole lot of guys, a surprising number of them, still don't think date rape is rape. Even some law enforcement and city leaders don't. But there are about nine kinds of rapists categories, and date rapists fall into one of those categories or the other, and date rape shouldn't be "the" category. There's psychology behind them all. So you can get in heated discussions about all that. Men don't like women who worry about all that stuff and just want them laughing and easy, for the most part. It's hard for most men to understand that we're wired to see red flags from thousands of years of being mostly defenseless and being brutalized and mistreated by men, and don't understand why it's important to us to trust one if we're going to be with him and trust that he respects us, which is not always the case when it comes down to it, and supports us rather than makes fun of our concerns.

[heavenonearth]

I agree they will likely not stay together forever. I know you occasionally see a highschool romance that lasts forever, but I've never seen even one in my 65 years, with anyone born after 1950, anyway, who had other options. I hope she didn't already have kids because it will make it simpler when the time comes.

 

Men don't like to be bothered with "issues," I've noticed, not many of them anyway. From his perspective without education, he may feel women are doing better than him overall, and maybe they are. A whole lot of guys, a surprising number of them, still don't think date rape is rape. Even some law enforcement and city leaders don't. But there are about nine kinds of rapists categories, and date rapists fall into one of those categories or the other, and date rape shouldn't be "the" category. There's psychology behind them all. So you can get in heated discussions about all that. Men don't like women who worry about all that stuff and just want them laughing and easy, for the most part. It's hard for most men to understand that we're wired to see red flags from thousands of years of being mostly defenseless and being brutalized and mistreated by men, and don't understand why it's important to us to trust one if we're going to be with him and trust that he respects us, which is not always the case when it comes down to it, and supports us rather than makes fun of our concerns.

 

I am going to be frank and say that, although i have personally known men who partially think this way, the majority of men in my life certainly are feminists and are educated to the degree that they can acknowledge women’s rights as being an important human rights aspect.

perhaps this pertains to culture as well - maybe in America things are different. Western Europe is overly progressive and i find it odd that she would not have noticed this aspect of his way of thinking over the past 7 years.

 

I feel bad for her because they love each other so much but she told me he completely disregarded how SHE feels about it and that he couldn’t acknowledge that it is a big part of her life and thus a significant aspect of their relationship. It is unlike him to shut down and not be open to talking about this further.

 

I mean, one can be uninformed (and although at 23 i wouldn’t think he’s too young to grasp these issues, he may have never been much in an environment in which he could have picked up on them / was exposed to them), but i feel there needs to be an openness. It is her essence, it is Who she is. She is heartbroken over it.

[Mr. Lucky]

Men don't like women who worry about all that stuff and just want them laughing and easy, for the most part. It's hard for most men to understand that we're wired to see red flags from thousands of years of being mostly defenseless and being brutalized and mistreated by men, and don't understand why it's important to us to trust one if we're going to be with him and trust that he respects us, which is not always the case when it comes down to it, and supports us rather than makes fun of our concerns.

 

That's an awfully broad generalization that does a disservice to both sexes, implying that "men" want intellectually lazy and less than thoughtful women. For most men, just not true...

 

Mr. Lucky

[heavenonearth]

That's an awfully broad generalization that does a disservice to both sexes, implying that "men" want intellectually lazy and less than thoughtful women. For most men, just not true...

 

Mr. Lucky

 

Thanks Mr Lucky. That’s what i also thought.

[PegNosePete]

Btw they are not married and don’t live together.

Together for 7 years, not even living together? Is there any reason for that? There comes a point where you need to poop or get off the pot... and usually it is much sooner than 7 years in. I'd question the long term potential of this relationship based on that alone.

 

Anyway. As I'm sure you're aware this is a complex issue with many vocal supporters on all sides of the equation. My own opinion is that many so-called "feminists" and "social justice warriors" have gone way beyond sanity and rationality; the metoo movement for example was started as a kind of victim support, but it's progressed into trial by social media; witch-hunts without any due process.

 

You call him "uninformed". Just because someone holds a different opinion to you, doesn't mean they are uninformed. Rather than asking why he thought men and women were "equal by now" she explained that he's disillusioned? I would walk away from that "discussion", too!

Edited May 25, 2018 by PegNosePete

[Woggle]

I fully support 99% of what reasonable feminists advocate for. I believe nobody has the right to tell a woman she can't have an abortion, I support equal pay and men who abuse and assault women should get the harshest punishment. That being said I don't anybody who calls my men trash or bathes in our tears or is offended when somebody says not all men are bad. No sane and rational person with self respect allies themselves with people who hate them.

 

I am not saying that is what your friend believes in and if she is about equality instead of hatred then he should support her. Without knowing her motivations I can't say whether he is right or wrong. If they have a daughter of course he should support women's rights but a boy shouldn't have a misandrist for a mother either.

[heavenonearth]

I am quite appalled by the responses here.

How quickly people jump to use words such as misandry.

 

Have you even read my initial post?

This is about the fact that she personally felt invalidated by her partner, because he said to her face that we don't need feminism (in any shape or form) in the Netherlands. He is oblivious to the struggles women still face in 2018 and he believes that we live in a time where 'everything is equal' and 'women shouldn't complain'. It's absolutely upsetting and if anybody thinks this is acceptable, they need a reality check.

 

 

I give up... people suck so hard. Urgh...

[Shining One]

How did she respond to his "men and women are equal" statement? Did she respond by stating he's wrong without stating why? Or did she objectively counter his argument by stating the specific legal rights women are lacking in the Netherlands that men have? I can't speak for the boyfriend, but I would personally respond better to the latter than the former.

 

As a side not, as someone unfamiliar with the Netherlands, what legal rights are women lacking that men have?

[PegNosePete]

he believes that we live in a time where 'everything is equal' and 'women shouldn't complain'.

This is different than what you said in the original post. Originally what he said was quite vague, seemed to simply be avoiding the issue rather than arguing a different viewpoint. Did he actually say those things you quoted or are you extrapolating? Remember you're hearing it 2nd hand.

[Gaeta]

Heaven, this guy is practically still a kid. He knows nothing out of nothing yet. At 23 he is the fruit of his upbringing and his environment, he has no real life experience to account for. So far his big issues were probably pimping his car and finding the latest game his buddies are talking about.

 

Women mature at a much faster speed then men at that age. When he turns 30 he probably will be nothing close to who he is today.

 

Our opinions are based on our personal experience. If his mother, sisters, gf and female friends have never complained of being victims of prejudice or sexual harassment then he built himself a general opinion on the subject based on nothing tangible and probably things he heard here and there by other men.

 

The question is: Is he a good man in his heart. If any women around him would be taken advantage of, being prejudiced against, would he defend their rights? Do you think he'd let his daughter being prejudiced against because she's a woman? Of course not. The man only needs to 'live' and figure out a few things on his own. You cannot hammer a 'belief' in someone's head. Your friend's idea that she needs to 'make him' understand is unrealistic.

 

My father was a very conservative man and my mother was as liberal as can be for a woman of her generation. Us 4 kids all grew up liberals. They didn't share the same views on sex before marriage and the role of women, they debated it but never fought about it and certainly never ignored each other on social issues. It taught us kids to respect each other's beliefs and limits in understanding those beliefs.

 

My boyfriend is a self-proclaimed homophone but his best friend is gay. My bf will never understand that homosexuality is not a 'choice' people make. It's useless for me to hammer his brain with it. Why I can keep on loving my homophobe boyfriend? because he's a kind man that would not hurt anyone because of sexual orientation, because even though he doesn't 'understand' homosexuality he still can have a meaningful friendship with a gay man. He would never make fun of them, disrespect them, or belittle them, he just doesn't understand them.

 

So back to your friend. Even though this young man has shocking opinion for 2018 how does he handle it in his day to day life? If all the men at his gf's work place get a raise but not the women, would he be supportive of her contesting it?

[heavenonearth]

This is different than what you said in the original post. Originally what he said was quite vague, seemed to simply be avoiding the issue rather than arguing a different viewpoint. Did he actually say those things you quoted or are you extrapolating? Remember you're hearing it 2nd hand.

 

We had a long conversation about it and she told me verbatim what each of them said. I didn't say all of it in my original post of course, just so everyone can get the gist of it.

 

And no, he was not avoiding the issue, he thoroughly believes that women and men are treated equally in our society and there is no need for feminism in this country.

[Whoknew30]

We had a long conversation about it and she told me verbatim what each of them said. I didn't say all of it in my original post of course, just so everyone can get the gist of it.

 

And no, he was not avoiding the issue, he thoroughly believes that women and men are treated equally in our society and there is no need for feminism in this country.

 

Honestly, this whole situation is anti feminism. Your friend’s bf has a different opinion than herself. A true feminist is ok with people having different opinions. It’s not invalidating that he thinks one way & she thinks another...it’s all opinion based.

 

This sounds like several immature 20’s year olds something year olds. I married extremely young & have had to put off school (I’m back now) my friends are all the money makers within their households & they all have kids. We all live a “feminist life” we don’t sit around & throw fits about it bc we’re too busy doing. As for kids, our husbands all have different opinions than ourselves & we embrace diversity & respect for it. I’d be more worried about a woman being a mother that states she’s a feminist but will break up with someone bc she felt their opinion invalidated her personally...what kind of example is “when you hear something you don’t like, throw a fit & debate cutting someone you love out of your life over it”.

 

My oldest is a girl, that grew up watching all these strong women show their were no boundaries but now she’s in a military academy college, just finished basic & has a full ride at school & has been beating everyone (inclusion her male counterparts) in physical obstacles. All of that & grew up with a dad & mom that have bipolar views. I see the same with my friend’s kids that are a bit younger.

 

Not to point out it’s not very feministic to be so involved in another woman’s relationship & to question how another couple is going to be with their nonexistent kids.

[Els]

"Feminism" is a word that evokes different definitions in different people's minds. Some people associate it with the militants who turn every issue in the world into a gender issue and use it as an excuse for misandry. Some people know that it really just stands for gender equality and that the people using it as an excuse for misandry are similar to the "MRAs" who use that as an excuse for misogyny.

 

Frankly, if he had genuinely been a misogynist and completely dismissive of her feelings, surely she would have known by 7 years in? That alone makes me think the problem is likely either deeper than this, or that the issue is merely semantics.

[Whoknew30]

"Feminism" is a word that evokes different definitions in different people's minds. Some people associate it with the militants who turn every issue in the world into a gender issue and use it as an excuse for misandry. Some people know that it really just stands for gender equality and that the people using it as an excuse for misandry are similar to the "MRAs" who use that as an excuse for misogyny.

 

Frankly, if he had genuinely been a misogynist and completely dismissive of her feelings, surely she would have known by 7 years in? That alone makes me think the problem is likely either deeper than this, or that the issue is merely semantics.

 

I honestly believe this is a trend in society. It’s a egocentric standard it seems IMO. If one doesn’t agree with another’s perspective, all of a sudden it’s sooo personal. Your friend is by far not the only person that sounds like this...article after article, “I can no longer have a close relationship with mom/dad/sibling/SO bc they think “this way”. It’s actually really sad...when I was young, you could have your own opinions & it may be a little argument but then done & you moved on. It’s not the same anymore. She & even yourself (as you asked how would it be if they hav kids) actually a huge amount of your generation...are so busy focusing on everyone else & judgment of everything & everyone else...that you’re losing the respect of difference while projecting being so open minded & inclusive of difference. Once again, my opinion.

[Whoknew30]

"Feminism" is a word that evokes different definitions in different people's minds. Some people associate it with the militants who turn every issue in the world into a gender issue and use it as an excuse for misandry. Some people know that it really just stands for gender equality and that the people using it as an excuse for misandry are similar to the "MRAs" who use that as an excuse for misogyny.

 

Frankly, if he had genuinely been a misogynist and completely dismissive of her feelings, surely she would have known by 7 years in? That alone makes me think the problem is likely either deeper than this, or that the issue is merely semantics.

 

Lol I got you & OP mixed up...if you’re not in your 20’s than we may be the same generation...sorry about the mix up, my old self didn’t have on my eyeglasses!

[Timshel]

I honestly believe this is a trend in society. It’s a egocentric standard it seems IMO. If one doesn’t agree with another’s perspective, all of a sudden it’s sooo personal. Your friend is by far not the only person that sounds like this...article after article, “I can no longer have a close relationship with mom/dad/sibling/SO bc they think “this way”. It’s actually really sad...when I was young, you could have your own opinions & it may be a little argument but then done & you moved on. It’s not the same anymore. She & even yourself (as you asked how would it be if they hav kids) actually a huge amount of your generation...are so busy focusing on everyone else & judgment of everything & everyone else...that you’re losing the respect of difference while projecting being so open minded & inclusive of difference. Once again, my opinion.

 

 

+100 Whoknew30.

 

 

Heavenonearth, your friend is quite young and may be 'waking' up to incompatibilities in her relationship, it happens.