Can you love someone and be ashamed of them?

[Mrlonelyone]

Can you love someone romantically and yet be ashamed of them? I don't just mean embarrassment due to external disapproval. I mean can someone love another and yet feel a deep internal sense of shame towards the same person?

 

I ask as a sanity check. Thinking back on all my relationships, dalliances, mutual crushes ... there has never been one where there wasn't some deep dark sense of shame. Maybe, I am just down on myself. If there is it explains everything, every sudden change and dramatic shift.

 

So answer me and have a good time discussing whether real shame towards a person and real true romantic love towards a person can occur at the same time?

[Popsicle]

I would say yes because even a parent can love their child yet be ashamed of them (due to their bad behavior, etc.)

[angel.eyes]

A parent's love for their children is a completely different kettle of fish. It's unconditional. It's lifelong and generally no matter what that child does, the parent will always love and be there for that child.

 

The OP refers to crushes and dating relationships. If the person has deal breakers, behaves badly, or is otherwise unacceptable in some way, the partner breaks up.

 

OP, what do you mean by deep sense of shame? What were you and/or your dating partners ashamed of specifically?

[umirano]

I suppose everything is possible. I doubt very many people deeply love someone who they're ashamed of. Those are not emotions that can exist side by side for a long time in a healthy mind. We're usually ashamed of things that go against our values. Loving means admiring and respecting someone. There's definitely going to be a conflict that needs to be resolved one way or another.

 

Why were you ashamed of every love interest so far?

[basil67]

I have not experienced being ashamed of someone I loved. If they were awful enough to be ashamed of, I would not be attracted to them.

[anika99]

I guess if I was madly I love with someone and then they did something horrible, like robbed an old lady or something then I might experience being ashamed of him and in love with him at the same time because love can be hard to instantly turn off but it would probably be the starting point to falling out of love.

 

The way you describe it as experiencing deep dark shame sounds more like personal shame. Like you are ashamed of yourself for being involved or attracted to these people. Can you tell us more?

[alphamale]

Can you love someone romantically and yet be ashamed of them?

 

of course you can

[mikeylo]

Of course yes. Especially when married, it's harder to deal with. When dating , you can dump and move on.

 

The behavior that comes in this can be plenty that include disrespect and humiliation as well. When out , your partner blatantly flirts with others. It's humiliating, disrespectful and obviously you wouldn't want to go out with them and that is because you are ashamed to be next to them and don't want to be seen with them.

 

Some manners. People eat with mouth open and talk loud. The list is endless it yeah, if it's beyond your point, dump them. That's what dating is for.

 

People are ashamed to be a partner of a cheater even though they didn't do anything !

[Art_Critic]

of course you can

 

Indeed....

 

 

The feeling of love isn't conditional on there being a perfect person or even there being a perfectly moral person.

 

People are imperfect...

[Gloria25]

Yes, I believe so.

 

Dude that's breaking my heart right now? I believe that one reason he threw me under the bus is differences in our races. And, actually, before all this exploded, that was a topic that I was gonna bring up with him.

 

When we first started chatting, he seemed standoffish and I brought it up in a joking manner and let him know that I date outside of my race, but I think that he thinks I'm playing him as some joke. But with time, I felt he was melting and actually was liking "me" w/o even race being an issue.

 

But, really, I believe that in his social and familial circles there's not really mix of people from different races. Shoot, I'm probably his first interracial romantic interest - which is one reason he probably felt he had to throw me under the bus to save face with his "bro".

 

So yea, I think that he was into me, but still ashamed cuz of the differences between our races.

Edited January 5, 2017 by Gloria25

[preraph]

Oh, yeah. I know a woman who is ashamed of her husband's horrible behavior (due to social anxiety and maybe some narcissism) and has been on the verge of divorce but she loves one part of him, but finds the other parts hard to live with.

[angel.eyes]

Not to beat a dead horse or nitpick, but...

 

The OP specifically mentions "relationships, dalliances, mutual crushes" not marriages or parenting. Those are both more serious, hopefully lifetime, commitments.

 

If I were married and my husband started smoking, I would be displeased, but I wouldn't divorce him over it. A boyfriend? Dalliance? Crush? Yes. Kicked to the curb because it's a deal breaker. I don't want to deal with all the health issues that accompany a cigarette smoker in the long-term. I'm also not kissing an ashtray...or a breath mint-laced ashtray. Similarly, bad breath? Spouses don't divorce over bad breath. A date? Yes. They leave skid marks as they disappear.

 

I'm still waiting to hear what the OP means by deep sense of shame. I think he'll get better answers if he clarifies what that means.

Edited January 5, 2017 by angel.eyes

[Mrlonelyone]

 

OP, what do you mean by deep sense of shame? What were you and/or your dating partners ashamed of specifically?

 

I am transgender and gender non-conforming and I am a person of color. For a lot of people somehow it is just too much to think that a person of color can be those things. After all us black people are seen as basic animals

 

Whites see blacks as superhuman: Strength, speed, pain tolerance, and the magical negro.

 

My past relationships have been marked by the reactions of others which were racist, or homophobic or transphobic. Partners who would swear one day that they would never be influenced all invariably would leave and come back and leave and come back..

 

Like a person who goes on a diet but always comes back to the cookie jar.

 

Many of the replies assumed I meant the person felt shame over something their partner did. No. I mean they feel shame over some aspect of who their partner is. Can you love someone yet be ashamed of who they are, their age, race, religion, gender behavior, way of dressing, their job, things that mark a persons identity.

Edited January 6, 2017 by Mrlonelyone

[Mrlonelyone]

Not to beat a dead horse or nitpick, but...

 

The OP specifically mentions "relationships, dalliances, mutual crushes" not marriages or parenting. Those are both more serious, hopefully lifetime, commitments.

 

True I am talking more about the dating stage. If a person is a slob or becomes a jerk when they drink (not abusive just they behave embarrassingly) that's one thing.

 

I am thinking more about shame over who their partner is for things they can't change (or can't easily change).

 

Like this.

 

Yes, I believe so.

 

Dude that's breaking my heart right now? I believe that one reason he threw me under the bus is differences in our races. And, actually, before all this exploded, that was a topic that I was gonna bring up with him.

 

When we first started chatting, he seemed standoffish and I brought it up in a joking manner and let him know that I date outside of my race, but I think that he thinks I'm playing him as some joke. But with time, I felt he was melting and actually was liking "me" w/o even race being an issue.

 

But, really, I believe that in his social and familial circles there's not really mix of people from different races. Shoot, I'm probably his first interracial romantic interest - which is one reason he probably felt he had to throw me under the bus to save face with his "bro".

 

So yea, I think that he was into me, but still ashamed cuz of the differences between our races.

 

I have been there plenty. I have had people be into me and then treat it like a sin or a guilty pleasure at best. Race (multiracial black), Gender (transgender and androgynous), education (I teach college). Those three things never go together in the popular consciousness. So for many people it can be too much...too different.

 

My lovers, crushes, partners.... they were all ok with it and would say they would not be influenced but they always were. The ones I knew were into me were the ones who treated seeing me like some guilty pleasure. Like eating sweets when they should be on a diet.

 

The thing is .... is to be loved more like being the meat and potatoes? I mean how can you really love someone yet be ashamed of who they are. (not just what they do.)

[anika99]

I am transgender and gender non-conforming and I am a person of color. For a lot of people somehow it is just too much to think that a person of color can be those things. After all us black people are seen as basic animals

 

Whites see blacks as superhuman: Strength, speed, pain tolerance, and the magical negro.

 

My past relationships have been marked by the reactions of others which were racist, or homophobic or transphobic. Partners who would swear one day that they would never be influenced all invariably would leave and come back and leave and come back..

 

Like a person who goes on a diet but always comes back to the cookie jar.

 

Many of the replies assumed I meant the person felt shame over something their partner did. No. I mean they feel shame over some aspect of who their partner is. Can you love someone yet be ashamed of who they are, their age, race, religion, gender behavior, way of dressing, their job, things that mark a persons identity.

 

No, I think that if people are ashamed of their partner based on the reasons you have given, that they are actually projecting their own shame and insecurity onto their partner.

 

The people you have been dealing with who do this are not ashamed of you they are ashamed of themselves because they haven't accepted themselves for who they are. They are battling inner shame and self loathing. These people won't really be capable of loving someone else unti they learn self love.

Edited January 6, 2017 by anika99

[Gloria25]

No, I think that if people are ashamed of their partner based on the reasons you have given, that they are actually projecting their own shame and insecurity onto their partner.

 

The people you have been dealing with who do this are not ashamed of you they are ashamed of themselves because they haven't accepted themselves for who they are. They are battling inner shame and self loathing. These people won't really be capable of loving someone else unti they learn self love.

 

I beg to differ.

 

Even though this is 2017, society, religion, etc. still places a stigma on certain behaviors, beliefs, traits, etc.

 

There are some homosexual people who are celibate because while they have come to accept who they are, they may have shame that it doesn't gel with their religious beliefs. So, while they may decide to date someone of the same sex, they may be ashamed if anyone finds out.

 

About race?

 

About a year ago I was on a date with a white guy and the hateful stares I got, OMG...

 

So, I can see projection of self hatred in some cases, but some people are ashamed of dating, having a RL with certain people cuz of the flack society, religion, relatives, etc. are gonna give them - which makes them ashamed.

 

Geesh, believe it or not, people are influenced by peer pressure - to the point where they just wanna "fit in". Sometimes it pushes them to even do illegal things. It's "mob" mentality.

Edited January 6, 2017 by Gloria25

[Mrlonelyone]

No, I think that if people are ashamed of their partner based on the reasons you have given, that they are actually projecting their own shame and insecurity onto their partner.

 

The people you have been dealing with who do this are not ashamed of you they are ashamed of themselves because they haven't accepted themselves for who they are. They are battling inner shame and self loathing. These people won't really be capable of loving someone else unti they learn self love.

 

In my personal cases when it comes to the sexual aspects of liking or loving me I think this is part of it. I get it from both men and the handful of women I have liked.

 

The last woman I seriously liked and discussed on here "M" acted so crazy many on here weren't sure she even liked me but then we did lots of things you don't do if you arent attracted. Chasing eachother around the tables in the computer lab when no one was around to discussing future plans.... much of it at her initiative. Loving acts during and after the breakup.

 

Then denying such acts were loving.

 

 

About race?

 

About a year ago I was on a date with a white guy and the hateful stares I got, OMG...

 

So, I can see projection of self hatred in some cases, but some people are ashamed of dating, having a RL with certain people cuz of the flack society, religion, relatives, etc. are gonna give them - which makes them ashamed.

 

Geesh, believe it or not, people are influenced by peer pressure - to the point where they just wanna "fit in". Sometimes it pushes them to even do illegal things. It's "mob" mentality.

 

This is certainly an issue when I am in an interracial looking relationship. I am multiracial and sometimes taken for latin like a Puerto Rican or Dominican. So it depends on the eye of the beholder.

 

Never is there more of an issue than if I am with a white woman. It does not matter how out there the woman is herself. That racial mis match brings out the ugly side in people that surprise us.

 

It can also bring out the best in people and surprise us with who accepts it.

 

The lady M who I mentioned above...her father related to me that him and her mother caught flack for being of different cultures. He southern European and her nothern european. So he felt a sort of kinship with us going through something like that. He showed it he did not just say it.

[anika99]

I beg to differ.

 

Even though this is 2017, society, religion, etc. still places a stigma on certain behaviors, beliefs, traits, etc.

 

There are some homosexual people who are celibate because while they have come to accept who they are, they may have shame that it doesn't gel with their religious beliefs. So, while they may decide to date someone of the same sex, they may be ashamed if anyone finds out.

 

About race?

 

About a year ago I was on a date with a white guy and the hateful stares I got, OMG...

 

So, I can see projection of self hatred in some cases, but some people are ashamed of dating, having a RL with certain people cuz of the flack society, religion, relatives, etc. are gonna give them - which makes them ashamed.

Geesh, believe it or not, people are influenced by peer pressure - to the point where they just wanna "fit in". Sometimes it pushes them to even do illegal things. It's "mob" mentality.

 

err..not really sure how you are differing from me, except for that you don't seem to realize that feeling shame for the ones innate desires is synonymous with self loathing and not accepting one's self.

 

Also what you said has nothing to do with the situations the OP has found himself in. He is not talking about people who are remaining celibate, he is talking about people who have relationships with him and then turn around and act ashamed of him. I stand by my assertion that those people are experiencing self shame and self loathing because they do not accept themselves.

 

Of course people are influenced by society and peer pressure which can cause personal shame and self loathing. Nothing you said negates or disputes anything I said.

[grays]

I'm sorry you're having these experiences and feelings about it. It sounds really painful. I think I might have had some similar things but to a much lesser degree, and I think it's not nearly as bad for me because I've had a lot of relationships that had nothing to do with that dynamic. But I'm starting to think of myself as not gender-conforming even though I am a woman and I am fairly feminine in a lot of ways. But I dress sort of sporty and have short short hair and never wear heels or make up. And I actually feel some revulsion at the idea of doing those things. It's a weird thing because in my mind it's not that I'm nkn-gender-conforming so much as our culture has gone overboard with the rigidness of its gender expectations.

 

Anyway, when I was married I didn't give any of this a lot of thought, but since I've been single, I've realized there are men that are specifically attracted to my boyishness and feel like it's almost taboo, and like they're trying something out -- like you said not a main course but like trying some exotic weird food. I haven't taken offense or felt hurt by it really, but I think if it was my main sort of interaction with men it would be pretty ****ty feeling. For one thing, those men never make me part of their lives, I'm like an excursion out of their normal lives. And then when they do get into some kind of real relationship, it's always with a more lady-like partner. Even my ex-H who I was with for 25 years left me for a woman with long flowy hair who wears make up and heels and loves nothing more than shopping for clothes. Sigh...

 

Anyway... I'm not sure if I think that means they are ashamed. Some might be. And I do think some wouldn't quite want to be seen with me. Not sure if it's quite shame, but that is sucky to admit. (Seriously had not put a lot of thought i to this, maybe a little denial going on here, before reading this thread.)

 

And to answer your original question, I think I have a couple of times felt sort of ashamed about someone that I felt romantic love for. In fact, I had those feelings about the two men I've had the strongest feelings for since I got single. Hmmmm... that's weird! I think in both cases there was tons to feel proud of in who they were. But the sense in which I felt ashamed was that if people really looked at who/how these guys were they'd see something personal about me that I'm ashamed of. So it wasn't exactly that I was ashamed of the guys themselves.

 

One of them is too complicated to explain here, but the other... There were a lot of things about him that were lovable and very positive but -- and I'm horrified to even say it -- he just wasn't very bright. I'm horrified because I hate to say that about anybody, it seems mean, and this is someone who I loved and still feel very strongly about. What does it say about me that I'd fall in love with him? And then I'm also ashamed to feel ashamed, ffs. It's really embarrassing to me still.

Edited January 7, 2017 by grays

[Mrlonelyone]

I'm sorry you're having these experiences and feelings about it. It sounds really painful. I think I might have had some similar things but to a much lesser degree, and I think it's not nearly as bad for me because I've had a lot of relationships that had nothing to do with that dynamic. But I'm starting to think of myself as not gender-conforming even though I am a woman and I am fairly feminine in a lot of ways. But I dress sort of sporty and have short short hair and never wear heels or make up. And I actually feel some revulsion at the idea of doing those things. It's a weird thing because in my mind it's not that I'm nkn-gender-conforming so much as our culture has gone overboard with the rigidness of its gender expectations.

 

IN other words you are like 3/5 of the 5 women I have ever felt attracted to. I know the exact type.

 

Anyway, when I was married I didn't give any of this a lot of thought, but since I've been single, I've realized there are men that are specifically attracted to my boyishness and feel like it's almost taboo, and like they're trying something out -- like you said not a main course but like trying some exotic weird food. I haven't taken offense or felt hurt by it really, but I think if it was my main sort of interaction with men it would be pretty ****ty feeling. For one thing, those men never make me part of their lives, I'm like an excursion out of their normal lives. And then when they do get into some kind of real relationship, it's always with a more lady-like partner. Even my ex-H who I was with for 25 years left me for a woman with long flowy hair who wears make up and heels and loves nothing more than shopping for clothes. Sigh...

 

I find this is often the case for me. The men and few women I've liked always went on to a more conforming partner. It was not always a happily ever after for them.

 

Anyway... I'm not sure if I think that means they are ashamed. Some might be. And I do think some wouldn't quite want to be seen with me. Not sure if it's quite shame, but that is sucky to admit. (Seriously had not put a lot of thought i to this, maybe a little denial going on here, before reading this thread.)

 

Where I get the idea of shame from looking back at my relationships and how certain exes have been afterwards. Some acting like to use your food analogy ... people who are openly and proudly vegetarian ... that still go to get a burger when no one is watching.

 

And to answer your original question, I think I have a couple of times felt sort of ashamed about someone that I felt romantic love for. In fact, I had those feelings about the two men I've had the strongest feelings for since I got single. Hmmmm... that's weird! I think in both cases there was tons to feel proud of in who they were. But the sense in which I felt ashamed was that if people really looked at who/how these guys were they'd see something personal about me that I'm ashamed of. So it wasn't exactly that I was ashamed of the guys themselves.

 

That is more like a shame that comes from knowing how a person truly is. I am thinking more about people's identities. Their surface features.

 

Skin color.

 

Economic class.

 

Relgion.

 

Gender identity and presentation.

 

I get what you mean though. THe feeling of your love for them was real. Your

 

One of them is too complicated to explain here, but the other... There were a lot of things about him that were lovable and very positive but -- and I'm horrified to even say it -- he just wasn't very bright. I'm horrified because I hate to say that about anybody, it seems mean, and this is someone who I loved and still feel very strongly about. What does it say about me that I'd fall in love with him? And then I'm also ashamed to feel ashamed, ffs. It's really embarrassing to me still.

 

How do you mean not bright? Was he like developmentally disabled like Forrest Gump? Does he just do some silly things that don't make sense to you?

 

Whatever it is. That is not quite what I am talking about.

 

In short... I am thinking of say .... Thomas Jefferson's Love for Sally Hemming kind of a deal.

 

For example could he be a committed salve owing racist and yet actually love tha woman (as it appeared he did to all who saw them)?

[loverboy69]

As a gay man in my 30's I know all about this all to well.

 

I ruined a few relationships in my early 20's because I wanted to keep them secret from my family. I wanted the comfort of a relationship, the sex that came with it etc. but on the condition that if we were around my family we'd pretend just to be friends or bros.

 

The men in my family are very macho. I'm masculine as well. I was embarrassed if my dad, uncles and brothers found out.

 

I'm so glad I grew out of that. Having to hide who you love due to shame is such a miserable experience.

[grays]

IN other words you are like 3/5 of the 5 women I have ever felt attracted to. I know the exact type.

 

Maybe we would be perfect for each other!

 

That is more like a shame that comes from knowing how a person truly is. I am thinking more about people's identities. Their surface features.

 

Skin color.

 

Economic class.

 

Relgion.

 

Gender identity and presentation.

 

I get what you mean though. THe feeling of your love for them was real. Your

 

I hope this doesn't come out in an offensive way... Gah! But to me smartness feels like one of those kinds of surface features. I have such a strange background with respect to this that my feelings may be fairly far from the norm. But I dropped out of HS when I was 15, not bc I was one of those bored smart kids who were above it but because when I was very young (it was clear by the time I was 6) parents and teachers just decided I wasn't that bright and shouldn't be encouraged. The last overt instance of it happened when I was 13 and a teacher asked my mother if they could test me to see if I was retarded. Fast forward 15 years, though, and I had been accepted into every one of the top 20 law schools, managed to graduate from one of them with respectable enough grades to get probably the most prestigious job available in my field.

 

Sooo, I have a feeling that I just see this differently from a normal person. I have no doubt my perceptions are ****ed up, though.

 

How do you mean not bright? Was he like developmentally disabled like Forrest Gump? Does he just do some silly things that don't make sense to you?

 

I'd be willing to bet that he had a fairly low IQ, so in sort of the rawest sense he was not bright. I've also dated very bright men who had little or no education. This was not that. In fact, the reason we ended was that he literally joined a cult (re-joined, he'd been involved with the before we met but was distancing himself) and I think the real reason for it was that he needed someone to tell him what to do.

 

It's so weird thinking about it now, over a year later, bc I'm not caught up in those feelings but I still have this crazy love for him. He was very passionate and loving, and he showed it much more easily that most people, which could totally have been bc he wasn't savvy enough to hide it.

 

I don't at all want to compare myself to a slave-owning racist, but I could certainly imagine that the slave who is the object of affection could have some quality that the slave owner highly valúes-- like the ability to be loving...

 

 

ten characters

[SpiralOut]

I'm not sure if this counts. My last serious boyfriend had a mental illness. Whether that is part of "who he is" or not is debatable. It's not something that will ever go away, and it affects how he thinks and acts. I don't even know if he would be the same person if his illness disappeared.

 

Anyway, I did love him and feel ashamed of him at the same time. He sometimes acted in ways that were embarrassing, and I know at least some of it was due to his illness. He couldn't work full time, his meds cause certain side effects. There is also a stigma against schitzophrenic people. He didn't want me telling just anyone about it, so I had to keep it secret, which was hard. For the longest time I also felt ashamed of myself for dating him. To this day I'm ashamed of myself for feeling ashamed!

 

I didn't leave him specifically because of it. He lied a lot, didn't contribute equally to the relationship, and eventually the whole thing blew up. Was that due to the illness or just his personality? I really don't know, but that's a huge reason for our break up.

Edited January 9, 2017 by SpiralOut