Should l stay or should l go...my girlfriends web of lies.

[Cohle]

I have been with my girlfriend for 18 months. We have both been married before and have children. Her marriage broke down due to her ex-husband*constantly lying to her about his*gambling, drinking, possibly cheating etc. She was very strong and clear to me in our first few dates that a lie is a lie. That there are no mitigating factors, that*if I were to lie to her about anything,*it would be all over. Also, that if she found out I had ever used or ever did use a prostitute it would be all over – no matter what.

*

We both agree this is the most loving, intense and beautiful relationship we’ve been in and constantly discuss marriage and all those wonderful things. I can say that I have never loved like this and from the moment we met I have been totally and completed besotted by her. I love her very deeply.

*

In the first few weeks*of our relationship, she talked about a male friend of hers quite often -*we’ll call him MA.*She told me that he was a person she had a brief one month relationship with about one year earlier. They had both agreed that they were not compatible on that level but remained in touch as they had become very good friends. She told me they talked over the phone often,*but were just good friends. When I pressed her,*she said that they only dated three times and that was all. She continued to be in constant contact with him for at least three months into our relationship and then she didn’t mention him again.

*

Recently, we were having a light-hearted*debate as to whether men and women could be ‘just friends’. I am pessimistic about this, yet she was adamant that men and women could be friends only.*She raised MA as her case in point. I challenged her on this. I asked how that friendship worked. Such as, was it only conducted over the phone, or*did you met up for coffee/chat, did*you have lunch, why did the friendship finish*etc. She told me that*they never meet up socially or in public,*rarely spoke on the phone, hadn't been introduced to extended friends or family,*and that they only met up at*each other’s homes to watch a movie or have dinner. I was*shocked, so I quizzed – did you ever have sex? She answered sheepishly - usually!

 

*

Obviously, I claimed victory in our debate and due to my state of absolute*shock and numbness, in keeping with my perfected poker face,*acted like nothing had been said and we carried on.

*

Since then,*I’ve sat down with her and gone over many questions that this revelation has raised. She confessed that about ten months prior to meeting me she and MA decided to be ‘Friends with Benefits’.*They set down some ground*rules and off they went. You don’t need the details of the rules, but over hours and hours of thrashing this out, it was*revealed*that they both broke all the rules over, and over again. Some of which,*much earlier in our relationship she promised me she hadn’t done i.e. hadn’t had unprotected sex since her marriage failed. Another rule was that if they met someone else then the arrangement would cease. Also, She*had a string of one night stands without telling MA during the FWBs arrangement. Further, she dated other men whilst continuing to have sex with MA at the same time, without telling these other guys.*It has to be said, most of these revelations weren't volunteered. It was only over hours of discussion, sometimes heated, that this stuff came out. Her story unravelled.

*

As it turns out,*she has lied to me about many things, with the worst being who MA actually was to her - what*the true nature of the relationship was.*Another extremely hard thing to accept is the moral superiority she grasped from the beginning regarding lying. She had put herself on a pedestal and put me on notice in no uncertain terms. Also, I may be a little off base with this one, but I consider the FWBs arrangement either equal too or worse than an man using a prostitute, mainly due to the complete lack of emotion*involved with a prostitute - it's a transaction only. Also, there is no real*prospect or*risk of reciprocated emotional involvement. However, like prostitution, the FWB arrangement*was a simply exchange of services. But,*unlike prostitution, they knew each, liked each other, were attracted to each other, were emotionally involved, we're friends first and lied to each other constantly*and broke each other's trust constantly. Much, like prostitutes they used each others services*in exchange. I*say this in this instance mainly due to the fact she admitted to having unprotected sex with MA, then*unprotected sex with another person she dated for 3 months prior to me whilst continuing to have sex with MA i.e. cheating? It goes without say, MA most likely did the same. Also, she says she really didn't like MA, rather they used each other for sex with little to no contact in-between. She also sent him sexy pics and gushing love texts thanking him for sex and praising him for his prowess in bed and telling him how great she thought he was. Is it just me, or does that sound like real affection?

*

Here’s the part that really hurts. She said that she*stopped having sex with MA about four months prior to meeting me as she had meet another man. She dated this new man for three months and it failed. However, Only a week*prior to meeting me she re-instigated the FWBs arrangement with MA by arranging to have*sex with him again. But, she promises me that that was the last time they had sex or that she even saw him. That, since she’s known me, she only ever spoke over the phone with him and that stopped three months into our relationship. However, that contradicts her previous claims that they only ever met up at each other's homes. Not only did she completely lie, hide the truth and deceive me about her relationship with MA, she still doesn't accept that she did this*purposely as she states she didn't have sex with him since she's been with me and that her past shouldn't concern me. She says it never crossed her mind to tell me the full story. She says she now accepts that she should have told me about him and their past, but also states that as she didn't cheat it really shouldn't matter or affect us going forward.

*

The foundation*of our relationship is built on a pack of lies. I don’t believe many elements*of her explanations and I don’t trust her. We have now talked this to death and all the tough questions I've*asked are met with either 'I can’t remember’, 'why does it matter', vacant stares, partial*truths, lies or a lack of willingness*to elaborate on anything. The whole process has been like pulling teeth. She only answers in simple terms. She provides very little detail - just the minimum.

 

Finally, she has told other lies regarding people in her past that have now come into our lives via our friendship circle.

*

I feel hurt, sad, angry and humiliated. My memories of those magical first few months we shared have been decimated. The depths of passion and love l felt for her has now been eroded. I still love her and desperately want to get back to where we were but l don't know how, or even if we should.

 

What to do?

[salparadise]

I think you've opened a can of worms that you'd have been better off not opening. All of this happened in the past, before she was with you. The only thing that happened since being with you was a phone conversation, and she's no longer communicating with him. If she was still maintaining this relationship then you'd have something legitimate to worry about.

 

People have pasts, and they cannot change history. The reason she wasn't completely forthcoming was that she was afraid that you'd judge her harshly, and she was right. That is exactly what you're doing, and it's ruining your relationship.

 

FWB is not prostitution. It is what it is, no more, no less. You are catastrophizing pretty much everything about this situation. You're digging into stuff you'd be better off not knowing. I think she was right to try and limit the amount of detail, esp. given your predilection for obsessing about stuff that for most people would be water under the bridge.

 

If your value system is such that you cannot be with someone who ever had casual sex, then I guess you'll need to break up and limit your dating to people who've never had sex outside of marriage, or are still virgins.

 

But if you really love this woman like you say, then you need to get down off the high horse and realize what a predicament you're putting her in, and the damage you're doing to an otherwise wonderful relationship. I'd suggest therapy for you, with the goal of adjusting expectations and dealing with reality instead of clinging to an idealized image of what constitutes a pure woman.

[LostOnes05]

I think you've opened a can of worms that you'd have been better off not opening. All of this happened in the past, before she was with you. The only thing that happened since being with you was a phone conversation, and she's no longer communicating with him. If she was still maintaining this relationship then you'd have something legitimate to worry about.

 

People have pasts, and they cannot change history. The reason she wasn't completely forthcoming was that she was afraid that you'd judge her harshly, and she was right. That is exactly what you're doing, and it's ruining your relationship.

 

FWB is not prostitution. It is what it is, no more, no less. You are catastrophizing pretty much everything about this situation. You're digging into stuff you'd be better off not knowing. I think she was right to try and limit the amount of detail, esp. given your predilection for obsessing about stuff that for most people would be water under the bridge.

 

If your value system is such that you cannot be with someone who ever had casual sex, then I guess you'll need to break up and limit your dating to people who've never had sex outside of marriage, or are still virgins.

 

But if you really love this woman like you say, then you need to get down off the high horse and realize what a predicament you're putting her in, and the damage you're doing to an otherwise wonderful relationship. I'd suggest therapy for you, with the goal of adjusting expectations and dealing with reality instead of clinging to an idealized image of what constitutes a pure woman.

 

I respectfully disagree with this notion. Sounds like to me, she was on her high horse and making up all the rules...Even if she found out he had been with prostitutes (which would be his past), she would be gone. If lying is lying to her, then she lied by omission by communicating with a person she has had intimate contact with and essentially sleeping around with a bunch of others while doing so. Sure, it's her past but the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior. Have you ever known a cheater to cheat once? Probably not.

 

What is hurting the relationship is that she isn't holding herself up to the same standards she is setting. If that was the case, she would've been forthright with him about who MA was and let him make his own decision as to stay or go from the beginning.

 

I'm a young guy, but I don't believe in having casual sex so I won't even touch that subject.

 

Keep your standards OP. It will save you a lot of trouble in the long run. Sure, asking is opening up a can of worms, but would you rather know the truth or abide by her rules while she continually equivocates? I would reiterate her rules to you, "A lie is a lie". She has the choice to be open or to be closed off in communication and you have a choice whether to continue or not. It's your call.

 

Best of luck!

[Larryville]

Her marriage broke down due to her ex-husband*constantly lying to her about his*gambling, drinking, possibly cheating etc. She was very strong and clear to me in our first few dates that a lie is a lie.

 

She confessed that about ten months prior to meeting me she and MA decided to be ‘Friends with Benefits’.*They set down some ground*rules and off they went. You don’t need the details of the rules, but over hours and hours of thrashing this out, it was*revealed*that they both broke all the rules over, and over again. Some of which,*much earlier in our relationship she promised me she hadn’t done

 

As it turns out,*she has lied to me about many things

 

Man this is the theme for today… Can you love someone who fundamentally does not respect you?

 

I will just post my signature:

 

"If you don’t love yourself, you’ll always be chasing people who don’t love you, either."

 

Amazing how many people tolerate (and say they love) folks who engage in deception.

[Springsummer]

 

I'm a young guy, but I don't believe in having casual sex so I won't even touch that subject.

 

That's admirable.

[Springsummer]

what's the difference between using prostitutes and FWB?

[TXGuy]

what's the difference between using prostitutes and FWB?

 

Women don't need prostitutes. Generally, women can get a ONS, FB or FWB without any effort. It is often very difficult for men to do the same. Since women would never need one, it is easy for them to demonize it, despite the fact that a ONS is the female equivalent of hiring a prostitute.

[Springsummer]

Women don't need prostitutes. Generally, women can get a ONS, FB or FWB without any effort. It is often very difficult for men to do the same. Since women would never need one, it is easy for them to demonize it, despite the fact that a ONS is the female equivalent of hiring a prostitute.

so the only difference is one is paid for and the other is free?

[big dog]

You're right....your relationship is based on nothing but lies & deception. Be thankful you fund this out now rather than later. It would be much more of a mess if you were married etc... Get out now ! It's never going to work after this.

[T-16bullseyeWompRat]

so the only difference is one is paid for and the other is free?

 

Nah, they are both paid for.... by the man. Drinks at the club are expensive! Dinner, a show, nightcap, gas money/cab fare/uber, all fronted by the man. If not then you are a "cheapskate" and no nookie for you! Plus she will tell all her girlfriends how cheap you are. Thems the rules.... i didnt write them, but thats just how it is.

[Satu]

snip

I feel hurt, sad, angry and humiliated. My memories of those magical first few months we shared have been decimated. The depths of passion and love l felt for her has now been eroded. I still love her and desperately want to get back to where we were but l don't know how, or even if we should.

 

What to do?

 

I have 2 questions for you:

 

 

1. What do you want to happen next?

 

2. What is your desired outcome?

 

 

 

Take care.

[Cohle]

Thanks Satu for thought provocation, in all seriousness it's what l need - some pointed questions. It's why l've joined this forum

 

1) Next, l'd like her to be full and frank and 'come clean' as l truely believe she is holding out. I know her very well and my judgement screams this out. Also, if she does this, l truely believe it will be the beginning of me getting past this with some outside help i.e counselling maybe?

 

2) My deepest desire is to repair the damage that either l'm doing to our relationship now or she did from the beginning and spend my life with her. We love each other so much.

 

Thanks.

[Jabron1]

it will be the beginning of me getting past this with some outside help i.e counselling maybe?

 

You meet a girl that puts you in 'counselling', and I'll tell you she isn't worth it.

[Cohle]

so the only difference is one is paid for and the other is free?

Your response maybe a little simplistic, but in the case l've described l agree with your statement. She was very clear when l suggested that MA was using her, she said "actually l was using him, there wasn't much l liked in him other than the way he made me feel sexually". Believe me when l say, that was really hard to hear:sick:

[Cohle]

You meet a girl that puts you in 'counselling', and I'll tell you she isn't worth it.

I think about that often. But, l'm 42 years old and have loved a few times before - even was married for 14 years. All l can say is, l've never felt anything even close to love like this - not even in the same league. I guess that's why l'm struggling so much.

[Cohle]

Women don't need prostitutes. Generally, women can get a ONS, FB or FWB without any effort. It is often very difficult for men to do the same. Since women would never need one, it is easy for them to demonize it, despite the fact that a ONS is the female equivalent of hiring a prostitute.

Never looked at it like this before....maybe a little harsh but some of what you say makes sense to me. Thanks.

[Cohle]

You're right....your relationship is based on nothing but lies & deception. Be thankful you fund this out now rather than later. It would be much more of a mess if you were married etc... Get out now ! It's never going to work after this.

Thanks. The exact reason l've joined this forum. I'm totally torn. But, l'm not ready to throw in the towel just yet. My personality type insists l get all the information, sit on it for a time and them make a call. I just don't feel like l have all the information. Or, am l looking for reasons not to call time on the relationship. I know deep down in my heart l won't ever be comfortable with what's happened.

[Jabron1]

I think about that often. But, l'm 42 years old and have loved a few times before - even was married for 14 years. All l can say is, l've never felt anything even close to love like this - not even in the same league. I guess that's why l'm struggling so much.

 

There have been a couple of times in my life where I thought I couldn't/wouldn't do better, and I always have.

 

You won't while you keep letting her screw your head up.

 

I'm being serious, she isn't worth it. Not even close. You clearly esteem her above yourself, and that's the real problem.

[angel.eyes]

Whose lying and cheating caused the breakup of her marriage?

 

I don't think I've ever had a conversation with a new boyfriend about not cheating. It's not something that's ever come up in conversation. Certain things are just a given as unacceptable in a relationship. Generally, when someone is haranguing about you doing something, it's because they do it themselves. That whole conversation at the start of dating would have been a red flag to me.

 

At any rate, you fell in love with a fantasy. As we date, we learn more about who the real person is that we're dating, and we get a better sense of whether we are compatible with that real person, rather than just the image in our minds.

 

In your shoes, I would be racing away from this cheating nightmare. She's not trustworthy, so there's no real basis for a relationship. Next time, wait until you actually get to know someone before you start thinking marriage.

[angel.eyes]

I think about that often. But, l'm 42 years old and have loved a few times before - even was married for 14 years. All l can say is, l've never felt anything even close to love like this - not even in the same league. I guess that's why l'm struggling so much.

 

Both Jake Cherry and Rupert Murdoch said the same thing about Wendi Deng as they abruptly dumped their wives to marry her.

 

Feelings are great. But the reality is that your GF lied and cheated on past partners, while putting their health at risk. She's lied to you, and she's put your health at risk by claiming she hasn't engaged in unprotected sex since her marriage when in fact, that was far from the case.

 

She finally admitted she doesn't chat with MA on the phone, because she doesn't even like him as a person, just enjoys his various services. Yet, if I understood your OP correctly, she was still "chatting" with him on the phone the first three months of your relationship? ...whatever "chatting on the phone" actually means to her.

 

Double standard aside, she's shown you her true colors, character, and values. Exclusivity and monogamy were not among them. Up to you to pay heed to what she's revealed about herself...or not. Sounds like you plan to marry her and see this out to the very end. Good luck with that!

[Gloria25]

Uh, in some cases a person's past is very much a prediction of their future behavior and your gf is one of those people, IMO.

 

I mean her promiscuity and hiding whom she is having relations with to all the guys in her world didn't happen decades ago, it's barely a few months ago from when she was up to this.

 

Another thing...a jealous and/or irrational person that is always accusing the other of cheating is usually "projecting". In other words, since she's up to no good, she's scared that you're doing/going to do the same to her, so she wants to lay out rules on you.

 

And gosh, makes me wonder if her divorce was more of what "she" was doing rather than her ex-husband.

 

If it were me I'd run, not walk away from this trainwreck of a woman.

[bubbaganoosh]

The problem isn't who she slept with or how many times, it's her double standards. She seems to me like a person who wants to have you live by the rules she sets down but she has her own set of rules and its perfectly fine.

 

Nothing like having it both ways and if it's me, I call her on that and let her know that she needs to abide by her own standards she set for you

[Cohle]

Both Jake Cherry and Rupert Murdoch said the same thing about Wendi Deng as they abruptly dumped their wives to marry her.

 

Feelings are great. But the reality is that your GF lied and cheated on past partners, while putting their health at risk. She's lied to you, and she's put your health at risk by claiming she hasn't engaged in unprotected sex since her marriage when in fact, that was far from the case.

 

She finally admitted she doesn't chat with MA on the phone, because she doesn't even like him as a person, just enjoys his various services. Yet, if I understood your OP correctly, she was still "chatting" with him on the phone the first three months of your relationship? ...whatever "chatting on the phone" actually means to her.

 

Double standard aside, she's shown you her true colors, character, and values. Exclusivity and monogamy were not among them. Up to you to pay heed to what she's revealed about herself...or not. Sounds like you plan to marry her and see this out to the very end. Good luck with that!

Thanks for your reply Angel Eyes.

 

I agree with what you've said and it seems that you've taken the time to really understand my post. Your summary is pretty well exactly my thoughts and issues. Problem is, l'm looking for reasons to see past her her lack of honesty. I realise that this seems as though l have no self respect and l'm simply enabling her double standards, but l love her (groan).....

 

After much soul searching, l believe my real issue is this - l just can't' see how, prior to me, MA was simply an FB, nothing more (as she claimed she didn't really like him for who he was). Yet post meeting me, MA apparently morphed into a friend she just had to have in her life. If she is to be believed, she hadn't been in contact with him for 3-4 months prior to re-instigating a week before meeting me. Following that, she swears no further sex was had.

 

I'm really having a hard time accepting that as the truth.

[angel.eyes]

I'm sure you have plenty of self-respect. That didn't cross my mind as an issue.

 

As I see it, your problem is that you've fallen in love with an image of who you think this woman is. Your feelings for the fantasy image are preventing you from accepting that the real her has totally different values and treats men very differently than you initially believed.

 

She's doing to you exactly what she did to those other men, some of whom remain integrated in her life today. She lied to them and to you about being monogamous, lied about not using protection, and lied about seeing other men. This man, MA, who she didn't like for anything other than sex, is now suddenly someone that must be in her life? Sorry to say, she's treating you no differently than the string of other guys who came before you.

 

This leopard hasn't changed her spots. You're in for a tough rollercoaster ride and a world of hurt if you choose to ignore that.

Edited June 23, 2016 by angel.eyes

[Gloria25]

I'm sure you have plenty of self-respect. That didn't cross my mind as an issue.

 

As I see it, your problem is that you've fallen in love with an image of who you think this woman is. Your feelings for the fantasy image are preventing you from accepting that the real her has totally different values and treats men very differently than you initially believed.

 

She's doing to you exactly what she did to those other men, some of whom remain integrated in her life today. She lied to them and to you about being monogamous, lied about not using protection, and lied about seeing other men. This man, MA, who she didn't like for anything other than sex, is now suddenly someone that must be in her life? Sorry to say, she's treating you no differently than the string of other guys who came before you.

 

This leopard hasn't changed her spots. You're in for a tough rollercoaster ride and a world of hurt if you choose to ignore that.

 

Excellent ^^ post