Being held accountable

[Juniper22]

This is actually coming from a few other threads I have read about various things. So this is my question.

 

When should a spouse or family member hold another person accountable for something they have done/doing? Let's say a spouse cheated, IMO I think they should hold the other person that cheated accountable for their behavior. They should realize and understand things have consequences. This is based on of course, if they are wanting things to work out. If they don't want them to try to work it out, there is no reason to hold one accountable.

 

What are some other situations or behaviors others should be held accountable for? What about a situation involving drugs and/or alcohol? Do they need to be held accountable for that as well?

 

Whats some things you can think of?

[2sure]

Gambling, Financial Irresponsibility, Temper Problems, Habitual Job Loss, Laziness.

 

Anything I didnt sign up for.

I'm not saying I would leave someone automatically for these reasons - but I would insist they face it, deal with it, be accountable for it.

[Juniper22]

Gambling, Financial Irresponsibility, Temper Problems, Habitual Job Loss, Laziness.

 

Anything I didnt sign up for.

I'm not saying I would leave someone automatically for these reasons - but I would insist they face it, deal with it, be accountable for it.

 

 

I understand what you mean. How does one go about holding one accountable other than dealing with it say by talking to a counselor or something? I mean if they continue a certain behavior, what should the consequence be? Of course I'm sure that depends on what the situation is they are dealing with I suppose.

[Trialbyfire]

Juniper, I'm not certain I understand what you're trying to get at, in this thread, since different people/different couples, have different values and needs within relationships.

 

Take cheating. Some walk away from the cheater, other enable, others fight for their marriage and find a happy compromise.

 

Or, take alcoholism. Some walk away from alcoholics, others find a way to address it and finally, others wallow in dysfunction.

 

For myself, I value respect and courtesy. If I don't get it, I walk. This can be considered trivial to some but to me, it's important.

 

I guess what I'm trying to say, is that there's no universal truth to relationships and accountability.

[Owl]

You hold someone accountable for actions that are damaging or destructive to other family members of friends. Or even potentially, themselves. All of the things listed so far make pretty good sense to me.

 

As far as the HOW...

 

Boundaries and consequences.

 

People change behaviors for 2 reasons...and that's it.

 

They either change a behavior to get something that they want, or to get away from something they don't like.

 

Positive and/or negative reinforcement.

 

Call it what you like...but at the end of the day, that's what it boils down to.

 

You hold someone accountable by clearly communicating boundaries in the behaviors you'll accept from them, and what the consequences of violating those boundaries are. And the consequences have to be severe enough to cause the other person to truly desire to avoid dealing with them.

 

Boundaries need to be FIRM, and clearly communicated. They have to be STRICTLY enforced...weak boundaries only make things WORSE.

 

For example...with a cheating spouse...NC with their affair partner should be a boundary. A consequence could be removal from the family home, seperation, divorce, etc...

[2sure]

Well, I'll you, I'm not good with money. Never have been. I'm BAD with it in fact. Currently my H is the major breadwinner, pays the bills , etc.

I work and my paycheck is my own. I earn a decent amount. We have been married 4 years. I was continually having to charge things to our joint account or ask him for money. After a couple of years, he asked me: WHERE does your money go??

I had no idea. None.

So, he (and this is embarrassing) made me write it down. Everything. Each dime.

He never asked me to stop spending it. He has never denied me a cent.

But now I know where my money is, and actually I spend less. I hold myself accountable for my earnings.

I hold him responsible for where he puts his di*k.

[Juniper22]

Juniper, I'm not certain I understand what you're trying to get at, in this thread, since different people/different couples, have different values and needs within relationships.

 

Take cheating. Some walk away from the cheater, other enable, others fight for their marriage and find a happy compromise.

 

Or, take alcoholism. Some walk away from alcoholics, others find a way to address it and finally, others wallow in dysfunction.

 

For myself, I value respect and courtesy. If I don't get it, I walk. This can be considered trivial to some but to me, it's important.

 

I guess what I'm trying to say, is that there's no universal truth to relationships and accountability.

 

I understand. I think I know what it is I want to say, but not sure how to word it, lol! Sorry!

[Owl]

Well, I'll you, I'm not good with money. Never have been. I'm BAD with it in fact. Currently my H is the major breadwinner, pays the bills , etc.

I work and my paycheck is my own. I earn a decent amount. We have been married 4 years. I was continually having to charge things to our joint account or ask him for money. After a couple of years, he asked me: WHERE does your money go??

I had no idea. None.

So, he (and this is embarrassing) made me write it down. Everything. Each dime.

He never asked me to stop spending it. He has never denied me a cent.

But now I know where my money is, and actually I spend less. I hold myself accountable for my earnings.

I hold him responsible for where he puts his di*k.

 

I'm sure it didn't help that you had to have that same sit down discussion with him and ask him...ok...so exactly where has your d**K been?!?!?!

 

Just giving you a rough time, 2Sure. It's a good example of accountability...and a good example of a consequence as well. Being forced to sit down and account for everything was no fun, and not something you probably wanted to repeat.

[Juniper22]

You hold someone accountable for actions that are damaging or destructive to other family members of friends. Or even potentially, themselves. All of the things listed so far make pretty good sense to me.

 

As far as the HOW...

 

Boundaries and consequences.

 

People change behaviors for 2 reasons...and that's it.

 

They either change a behavior to get something that they want, or to get away from something they don't like.

 

Positive and/or negative reinforcement.

 

Call it what you like...but at the end of the day, that's what it boils down to.

 

You hold someone accountable by clearly communicating boundaries in the behaviors you'll accept from them, and what the consequences of violating those boundaries are. And the consequences have to be severe enough to cause the other person to truly desire to avoid dealing with them.

 

Boundaries need to be FIRM, and clearly communicated. They have to be STRICTLY enforced...weak boundaries only make things WORSE.

 

For example...with a cheating spouse...NC with their affair partner should be a boundary. A consequence could be removal from the family home, seperation, divorce, etc...

 

OK, lets say a family member or spouse is into drugs and/or alcohol. That person is in treatment, BUT they are continuing to do the very thing they are in treatment for. Let's say this is a destructive thing they are doing to themselves and it effects the other person because of how the drug/alcohol changes their personality. The spouse or family member catches them. How do you hold that person accountable? Surely just slapping them on the wrist(so to speak) and saying, I wish thought you stopped that." isn't going to do any good. What does one do? I mean, even if you hold one accountable, that person still has to really want to stop the behavior right? if you hld them to be acountable, what do you feel it will do for them?

[Owl]

Addictions throw everything off-kilter.

 

The ONLY way to deal with an addiction is to remove it.

 

If they're getting help, but they're still intentionally using...you need to take steps to put an end to that use. Take their drugs and flush them. If you provide support/income for them...refuse to provide it for them any longer while they're using. Don't pay for their habit.

 

If they continue...insist on the ESCALATING the "help" that they're getting. Report the use to their counselor/parole officer/whatever. If you can reasonably afford it...force them to do an 'in-patient' detox/dryout...and then REFUSE to allow them to return to your home under anything less than cold-turkey cleanliness.

 

But again...addictions prevent them from being 'normal' human beings. With an addict...all bets are off. There are NO garauntees in how they'll respond to anything...and most often, the only time you'll EVER reach them is when they hit rock-bottom...and you have to hope that they survive that crash long enough to get them help.

[2sure]

Ahhh. I think I get what you are asking. Maybe.

 

Cheating, Alcohol, Gambling...all behaviors that affect others.

Holding the person with the behavior accountable ....does it work?

In my experience, someone with a behavioral problem is not motivated enough by the inconvenience of others to really change their behavior.

They have to be the main barer of the consequences of their behavior. Until they are their own victim , they dont really get it, no change.

 

Alcoholic leads to job loss, loss of family, home, etc. Big things. Functional alcoholics often dont change because although their families are very much affected....until they are in a homeless shelter themselves, they dont stop drinking.

[Juniper22]

Addictions throw everything off-kilter.

 

The ONLY way to deal with an addiction is to remove it.

 

If they're getting help, but they're still intentionally using...you need to take steps to put an end to that use. Take their drugs and flush them. If you provide support/income for them...refuse to provide it for them any longer while they're using. Don't pay for their habit.

 

If they continue...insist on the ESCALATING the "help" that they're getting. Report the use to their counselor/parole officer/whatever. If you can reasonably afford it...force them to do an 'in-patient' detox/dryout...and then REFUSE to allow them to return to your home under anything less than cold-turkey cleanliness.

 

But again...addictions prevent them from being 'normal' human beings. With an addict...all bets are off. There are NO garauntees in how they'll respond to anything...and most often, the only time you'll EVER reach them is when they hit rock-bottom...and you have to hope that they survive that crash long enough to get them help.

 

This totally makes sense. However, isn't that kind of like a parent/child relationship? But I do get what you're saying. I was just thinking a parent/child relationship between two adults is not a good thing. Is the mindset then, if you continue to act like a child I'll treat you like one? I hate looking at it that way, maybe that not the best way to look at it.

[Trialbyfire]

I totally disagree with your methodology, Owl. Addicts are responsible for themselves, to a degree. You can flush, drain, remove substances but if they're unwilling to stop, they'll just get more.

 

Juniper, if your situation involves an addict/alcoholic, go to al-anon. It teaches you not to enable or to take responsibility for someone else. Hopefully this other person is in AA, so the two methodologies/philosophies mesh.

[Owl]

This totally makes sense. However, isn't that kind of like a parent/child relationship? But I do get what you're saying. I was just thinking a parent/child relationship between two adults is not a good thing. Is the mindset then, if you continue to act like a child I'll treat you like one? I hate looking at it that way, maybe that not the best way to look at it.

 

Two thoughts on this.

 

If you're talking about a marriage...then both partners OWE their other partner accountability and responsibility for their actions. What one does directly impacts the other...and they agreed to protect each other.

 

So in that case, it's not so much a 'parent child' thing as much as it becomes 'protecting myself, my marriage, and my family'.

 

Second thought...the whole concept of "parent-child" relationship in a marriage is skewed by Hollywood views. The idea of a completely "50-50" relationship is great...but it's a unicorn...good luck finding it.

 

In reality, you nearly always have a dominant/submissive relationship in a couple. It's not set in stone, it doesn't apply to every decision, and there are all kinds of subtleties here...but the bottom line is that one partner tends to make more decisions and get their way more often in a relationship than the other one does.

 

Hollywood makes this sound so horrible....but the reality is that this is how we've ALWAYS been, and it's a pretty workable system as long as the power balance doesn't become horribly off center.

 

It's not always "male dominant" either...and sometimes the subject at hand determines the 'pecking order'. If it's how the house is going to be decorated, my wife is most likely to get her way. If it's how the car is going to get fixed, it's generally going to work out so that I make the choice. Sometimes, it's like that even if it doesn't make any logical sense.

 

But what this all boils down to is that an addict should NEVER be the 'deciding force' in a relationship. They should ALWAYS be the "child"...or the relationship is NEVER going to be happy, viable one for both parties.

 

Once the addiction is dealt with...that can change.

 

But an addict shouldn't be allowed to make choices in how their addiction will be dealt with...it very much IS a "parent" telling a "child" what will happen.

[Owl]

I totally disagree with your methodology, Owl. Addicts are responsible for themselves, to a degree. You can flush, drain, remove substances but if they're unwilling to stop, they'll just get more.

 

Juniper, if your situation involves an addict/alcoholic, go to al-anon. It teaches you not to enable or to take responsibility for someone else. Hopefully this other person is in AA, so the two methodologies/philosophies mesh.

 

Agreed...if the issue is really addiction...then your advice needs to be specific for dealing with addictions.

 

A "normal" therapist or counselor isn't equipped to deal with it.

[Juniper22]

Ahhh. I think I get what you are asking. Maybe.

 

Cheating, Alcohol, Gambling...all behaviors that affect others.

Holding the person with the behavior accountable ....does it work?

In my experience, someone with a behavioral problem is not motivated enough by the inconvenience of others to really change their behavior.

They have to be the main barer of the consequences of their behavior. Until they are their own victim , they dont really get it, no change.

 

Alcoholic leads to job loss, loss of family, home, etc. Big things. Functional alcoholics often dont change because although their families are very much affected....until they are in a homeless shelter themselves, they dont stop drinking.

 

Well, that leads me to this. My mother is married to my step dad (who is a great guy btw) and he is what you'd call a "functioning alcoholic." or perhaps a "problem drinker."

 

No its not really bad bad, he doesn't beat my mother or anything like that. However, the drinking does change his personality and he does get mouthy, a finger pointer, and wants get loud and act like an idiot. Yes, this effects her, and she lives with a bunch of anxiety and wonders what night she may come home to him mouthing off and acting stupid. Some times he seems ok other night not so much.

 

He is NOT a bad person, he just has a drinking issue. This has been going on for years. Yes, it should have been addressed before now, I agree. However right now he is in treatment as in talking to an out patient counselor. He has NOT stopped, and I don't think my mother expects him to, right off the bat, however I do think she expects him to at least try.

 

So, my grandmother told her the other day, that since my mother saw he had a bunch of beer cans/bottles outside and the fact he is still doing what he is doing, she told my mother she thought she she lock his a$$ outside, next tiem she looks out and sees him drinking, and tell him if he wants to drink, go for it but you're not coming in this house so you can call me names and point a finger at me! I mean I don't know if that is a form of holding him accountable or not? To him he probably dosn't even care if he is inside or not.

[Juniper22]

I totally disagree with your methodology, Owl. Addicts are responsible for themselves, to a degree. You can flush, drain, remove substances but if they're unwilling to stop, they'll just get more.

 

Juniper, if your situation involves an addict/alcoholic, go to al-anon. It teaches you not to enable or to take responsibility for someone else. Hopefully this other person is in AA, so the two methodologies/philosophies mesh.

 

 

Thanks TBF! Well, its my mother and she has mentioned al-anon, and I even told her I would go as well. I do not live at home and I'm close to 40 years old but I want to be there for her and support her as well.

 

See, your logic makes some sense to. Now I'm even more confused! So many people's advice makes sense. I guess al-anon is the best place to tell her what she should do and how she should handle it.

 

She has had some people tell her, Yes he should be held accountable, and others have told her No, he has a problem so he shouldn't be...

[2sure]

People making bad choices are automatically not in charge.

Not of my life anyway.

 

If I love them, I will take charge until they are capable of making better choices. Ive done it for my H, he has done it for me. Problems, issues , crisis come up and its great to have a partner but if its the same issue over and over again...like addiction...that's a whole nother thing.

[Owl]

She needs to change her expectations...and change his.

 

She needs to set a clear, hardcore boundary...the booze, or her.

 

She DOES need to expect it to end IMMEDIATELY...and tolerating ANY 'crossing the line' on this only supports his bad behavior...it tells him it's ok to keep drinking and being a drunk jerk.

 

Mixed messages don't help. Love the guy when he's sober...hate the drunk.

[Juniper22]

People making bad choices are automatically not in charge.

Not of my life anyway.

 

If I love them, I will take charge until they are capable of making better choices. Ive done it for my H, he has done it for me. Problems, issues , crisis come up and its great to have a partner but if its the same issue over and over again...like addiction...that's a whole nother thing.

 

 

So people with addictions, should NOT be held accountable?

 

What about people who are serial cheaters or who have sex addictions, are they held accountable? Sorry, just trying to understand.

[2sure]

I think they are all choices.

[Trialbyfire]

Thanks TBF! Well, its my mother and she has mentioned al-anon, and I even told her I would go as well. I do not live at home and I'm close to 40 years old but I want to be there for her and support her as well.

 

See, your logic makes some sense to. Now I'm even more confused! So many people's advice makes sense. I guess al-anon is the best place to tell her what she should do and how she should handle it.

 

She has had some people tell her, Yes he should be held accountable, and others have told her No, he has a problem so he shouldn't be...

I think that's a wise move, for you to go to al-anon too. The thoughts behind it, can be applied to life in general.

 

Addicts/alcoholics aren't doing things "to" hurt/harm other people. They've just prioritized booze/drugs above everything else, including and especially themselves. It's pretty scary, if you think about it.

 

While I'm not religious, I do recommend the Serenity Prayer. Just replace God with whatever you wish:

 

God grant me the serenity

To accept the things I cannot change;

Courage to change the things I can;

And wisdom to know the difference.

[Juniper22]

I think they are all choices.

 

 

I think you're right.

 

I think that people with addictions shouldn't be let off the hook, or that's how it seems, if someone says they shouldn't be held accountable just because they have an addiction. Its still a choice they make just as it is, if a person chooses to cheat or keep cheating etc.

[JackJack]

IMO, I think all people should be held accountable for their actions.

 

I also think that's what is wrong with alot of people these days, they were never held accountable, so therefore they feel they can continue on with whatever they may be doing.

 

I also believe that even if a person who has an addiction to something, that they have to want to change their behavior and that no one can make them, BUT I still say, if that persons behavior is effecting another, then yes, the person its effecting should hold the other one responsible.

 

Its no different than a child who back talks, or hits another child etc, they are usually held accountable and have to know their are consequences for their behavior. Serial killers, rapist, child molesters, etc, they are usually held accountable too, if you keep up your ways then this is what will happen, plain and simple. It matters not, if they have a sick mind, that excuse doesn't cut it nor should it.

[2sure]

Juniper

 

My Dad was a functioning alcoholic, never missed a day a of work. didn't usually get violent but always got obnoxious. Every day. Thats the just way it was, it was never any different.

 

The thing that caught my attention in your post was the word "anxiety". I get that. Its the just waiting for 8:00 pm for him to turn, its the not knowing if he is picking a fight with you, or how far it will go. Its the anxious waiting for him to get home - will he crash the car or kill someone else. Driving with him. Every day anxiety.

 

You learn to live with the functional alcoholic, you learn to live with the anxiety. The drinking and the alcoholic's behavior become the main point of the family unit, what everything else hinges on. After awhile, both are normal parts of your life. That knot in your stomach? Always there, even when you move away.

 

Address your own anxiety (even if you think it isnt affecting you) or this is something that will perpetuate throughout your life.