Jump to content

My mother


Taramere

Recommended Posts

I'm seeing a horrible repetition of an old family drama recently.

 

My father ran away to sea to get away from his mother when he was a teenager. On leave, he met my mother and they got engaged. He reconciled briefly with his mother, who hated my mother on sight (the feeling was mutual). There were various incidents which I've no doubt were exaggerated on the re-telling and it culminated in my father not speaking or seeing her for 25 years. Essentially throughout my childhood my dad's mother was this mysterious, evil figure who I never met. I finally met her in adulthood, not long before she died. I recall at the time my mum trying to guilt trip me out of going to meet her beforehand. She was convinced that this woman had cursed our family and would turn me against her.

 

My mother quite often attributes special life and relationship ruining powers to people she dislikes. In times of stress I've had to battle developing similar tendencies - and do recall briefly "turning into my mother" at one point 10 years ago when a boyfriend cheated on me. It was a horrible, disempowering feeling.

 

She's a product of her times, I think, and I'm of the view that you accept your parents warts and all. My brother isn't. He's grown to hate my mother. He tells me the hatred and anger was always there, even when we were kids. That astonishes me, because he was by far her favourite when we were children. She was always casting up to me what a nice little boy he was - giving up his seat for old ladies on the bus, etc. Sometimes when I was naughty she'd tell me that I was a horrible child who took after the grandmother I'd never met.

 

I tended to get that sense generally - that there was something wrong with me, and it was an inherited thing, from this mysterious, evil grandmother. My first profession was in the caring field, and I think in part that was down to me trying to show that I am a good person. I remember confiding to a teacher in primary school, that my mother thought I was a bad person - and mentioning the grandmother references. That year, in my report card the teacher wrote a "personal commentary" about me being an exceptionally kind, caring, insightful child. It was quite obviously a message from the teacher to my mother - and I think also done by the teacher to boost me. It was the first time I realised that you are not necessarily the person your family say you are....and that other people's perceptions of you are often based on their personal issues more than on insight.

 

In the family, though, I was still deemed a remote and cold daydreamer - shutting myself away from everybody so that I could read in my room. My brother bullied me a lot when I was a kid, and got away with it. At the time I thought he got away with it because my parents didn't think I mattered. For instance, he broke my finger on my 11th birthday, but I wasn't taken to hospital to have it fixed because it might spoil the party birthday party that was being held for me - so I was left with a permanently crooked finger. In a weird way my brother is more angry about that incident than I was. In my view he was old enough (14) to know better, but he blames my mother for a) not being present enough as a parent, b) putting a social event (my birthday party) before my welfare.

 

I think I always knew that it would go this way with my brother and my mother. That he would meet a woman my mother wouldn't get along with, and that it would end up in a re-enactment of the feud my dad had with his mother....and that I would have to try desperately to keep our family together. And now it's at that point. I tried to arrange a family get together for my parents' wedding anniversary. My mother expressed reluctance but I talked her around. Then I spoke to my brother and he was adamant that he wouldn't go.

 

My mother's under huge stress just now. My father is showing cognitive impairment, and although he's been cleared of Alzheimer's for now, there's a good chance that that's what it's developing into. I think she (my mother) is slipping into depression. When I go round to visit, it's a struggle to just not get up and leave because she's so draining and negative to be around. She's got so much vitriol in her. Always sees the worst in people, attributes vindictive motives to them, never gives people the benefit of the doubt.

 

My brother ranted to me (when I mentioned the family get together I wanted to arrange) that she is a cold, unloving person. He said that he can't handle my mother's negativity, bitterness and vitriol. He went on for about an hour - all this anger just spilling out. It's left me feeling more aware of my mother's negativity. I don't hate her for it in the way my brother does, but I see depression settling in, and I do think that in great part it's down to all this vitriol inside her that she's never troubled to try to address or take responsibility for. She always just blames other people, and at this stage in her life it's too late to change.

 

I've tried saying to my brother that yes, she can be negative, snobbish, vitriolic and controlling - but she can also be passionately loyal and generous. She's simply a person of extremes and as her children we have some duties to provide emotional support as she tackles this difficult stage in her life. She's a product of a different time, really, and the good old days weren't necessarily always better, filled with common sense etc. I think a lot of women of my mother's era were prone to using games and passive aggression in an effort to have some sort of power in a society that didn't really approve of women being direct and assertive in expressing their feelings and needs.

 

He just doesn't want to know, and his way of supporting me is to encourage me to stay away from her as much as possible. That's not an option. She's stressed and isolated. She needs her family. However, there's this saying she has that haunts me quite often. "Your son's your son till he takes a wife. Your daughter's your daughter for all your life." I feel a bit trapped. On account of her sounding so depressed and tired, and having difficulties with my father, I do want to be there for her, but I also worry about her sucking the life out of me.

 

I asked her to go and see a doctor and even to think about counselling. She takes the old fashioned "grand, totally above all that sort of self indulgent nonsense" approach to counselling....and I think to myself. It's not self indulgent. It would be a way of removing the burden from the remaining family members who are still on speaking terms with her, but I can't say I'd envy a counsellor the role. I'm sure she would just be completely closed off and patronising with anybody other than the most skilled and qualified of counsellors.

 

Anyway apologies for the inordinate length and thanks to anybody who read it all the way through. I know I'm not always the most liked person on this board, so I'm not sure how much response there will be - but there are a few of you I'm holding out for some response from. I suppose I'm looking for some outside, objective analysis of the situation and a bit of advice on whether it's worth trying to encourage a woman in her seventies to get counselling.

  • Like 4
Link to post
Share on other sites

Anyway apologies for the inordinate length and thanks to anybody who read it all the way through. I know I'm not always the most liked person on this board, so I'm not sure how much response there will be - but there are a few of you I'm holding out for some response from. I suppose I'm looking for some outside, objective analysis of the situation and a bit of advice on whether it's worth trying to encourage a woman in her seventies to get counselling.

:eek: are you kidding me? Have you ever seen Pyro's comment when he got 21 likes for one of his posts and said how proud he was to get near 'Taramere's awesomeness'? If you don't get many responses it's because the Family section doesn't get visited much.

 

How often do you get through the vitriol? Does your mother ever have 'soft' moments?

  • Like 8
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Author
:eek: are you kidding me? Have you ever seen Pyro's comment when he got 21 likes for one of his posts and said how proud he was to get near 'Taramere's awesomeness'? If you don't get many responses it's because the Family section doesn't get visited much.

 

No, I never saw that! Aw, thank you Emilia. I think I just got submerged a bit in that whole "memories of childhood" thing. There are a few times people on this board have told me that I'm a cold sort of person etc - so I know that that perception my family had of me when I was a kid isn't exclusive to them. But, well, to avoid criticism do nothing, say nothing and be nothing etc...

 

How often do you get through the vitriol? Does your mother ever have 'soft' moments?

 

With me, all the time. Not when I was a child, but as an adult definitely. She tends to see people in black and white. When I was a kid it was "my brother = good, Taramere = bad" and now it's completely the other way around. So she adores me and has this hateful non relationship with my brother.

 

My dad participates from time to time. They've often talked about changing their will to leave everything to me and cut out my brother. I told them to please not leave me that terrible legacy of a ruined relationship with my brother (professionally I've seen first hand how these revenge-through-wills situations can tear families apart at a time when they should be supporting eachother).

 

So there's been this complete reversal of how things were in my childhood, and sometimes it feels as though she wants me and my brother to be at eachother's throats. I went in by there after work yesterday (they live on my route home). She was looking miserable and angry. She said "I'm never going to see (my brother) again. That's a vow and I'm sticking to it." It just makes me so unhappy to see her in this latter stage of her life being so embittered, angry and generally just not at peace with her life.

 

It's like something of a Pandora's Box has been opened up. She's always tended to conceal problems and paint a pretty picture of things. When I was in my teens I went through an angry stage where I would confront her about things. She would potter around in the kitchen humming away to herself and ignoring me - and then, if I persisted in being heard she would burst into tears.

 

Once I got into adulthood I learned better ways of talking to people. I can have conversations with her, and we are generally close - but this situation between her and my brother is really upsetting me. I visited on Sunday, and I got the "we have to have a family discussion and sort out these problems between your mum and brother" thing from my dad. What that really means is "you take on their problem, make it your problem and resolve it". We've been there enough times for me to know that. So Sunday involved all these horrible, lengthy conversations that resolved nothing.

 

My brother ranted about my mother and about our childhood for an hour on the telephone - this being his extended explanation for not attending the party I wanted to arrange. I woke up on Monday morning with the first migraine I've had in ages, was violently sick and had to reschedule appointments. I'm convinced that all the hassle with the family brought it on, but that makes me sound like my mother when my brother and I were kids ("you two are making me sick with your constant fighting").

 

Good point about this section of the board not tending to get visited very often. It probably says something about a general reluctance, understandably, to get involved in other people's family dramas.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
No, I never saw that! Aw, thank you Emilia. I think I just got submerged a bit in that whole "memories of childhood" thing. There are a few times people on this board have told me that I'm a cold sort of person etc - so I know that that perception my family had of me when I was a kid isn't exclusive to them. But, well, to avoid criticism do nothing, say nothing and be nothing etc...

That's because as we all know, women are supposed to be emotional, not rational ;)

I woke up on Monday morning with the first migraine I've had in ages, was violently sick and had to reschedule appointments. I'm convinced that all the hassle with the family brought it on, but that makes me sound like my mother when my brother and I were kids ("you two are making me sick with your constant fighting").

Yes I'd imagine it's what brought it on yes.

Good point about this section of the board not tending to get visited very often. It probably says something about a general reluctance, understandably, to get involved in other people's family dramas.

Well it's just hard to give advice and I'm hoping that others will post who have successfully convinced reluctant relatives/friends to seek counselling. It's a little hard for me to imagine how it works when the person is reluctant - but then I don't have experience of it.

 

Would it be possible to ask a professional how they deal with reluctance?

 

It sounds like the dynamic is really toxic. I do have a difficult mother so I sympathise but to my knowledge she never tried to come between my sister and I. I think she was depressed before she met her partner, which is why my sister and I keep pushing her to work on her relationship with him as he treats her well, I simply could not do what you are doing.

 

At which point do you think your mother's mental health stops being your responsibility?

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Author
That's because as we all know, women are supposed to be emotional, not rational ;)

 

A friend gave me a quiz to do on Friday. Apparently I'm 30% emotional, 60% sexual and 10% logical :laugh:

 

Seriously though, you're right. A few of those comments have come via PM and it follows a pattern. The person says something nasty (eg "I wouldn't care if you died tomorrow, I'd just find somebody else to have a crush on") I respond in a fairly nonchalant sort of way and it invokes further criticism of how cold and clinical I am. I think the "you're cold" line is something people who thrive on drama use in an attempt to draw in/retaliate against others who aren't buying what they're selling.

 

Yes I'd imagine it's what brought it on yes.

 

Also, end of period (a common time for migraines) and admittedly all the wine I drank on Thursday and Friday may have played a role.

 

Well it's just hard to give advice and I'm hoping that others will post who have successfully convinced reluctant relatives/friends to seek counselling. It's a little hard for me to imagine how it works when the person is reluctant - but then I don't have experience of it.

 

When I try to visualise her in a counselling session I just feel sorry for the counsellor. I went to see a great counsellor a few years ago. He was just the ticket - detached and professional but extremely insightful and knowledgeable. Towards the end of our sessions the counselling became more just chats, and just as I was thinking "okay, maybe it's time to stop these as the counselling has run its course and I don't want to be taking up his time" he said something along the lines of me no longer needing counselling. So he was definitely not one of those who keeps clients on for his own needs rather than because the client needs counselling.

 

He'd be ideal, but you have to be referred to him.

 

Would it be possible to ask a professional how they deal with reluctance?

 

I've a feeling they would talk about the person needing to be open to counselling. Probably the main thing would be for my mum to get counselling to support her through my dad's increasing dementia.

 

It sounds like the dynamic is really toxic. I do have a difficult mother so I sympathise but to my knowledge she never tried to come between my sister and I. I think she was depressed before she met her partner, which is why my sister and I keep pushing her to work on her relationship with him as he treats her well, I simply could not do what you are doing.

 

At which point do you think your mother's mental health stops being your responsibility?

 

I know what you're saying. I can't abandon her, and I'm afraid that if I stop taking responsibility for her mental health then that's how she'll feel. I said yesterday that I was concerned about her. That she sounds tired, deflated, defeated and unhappy all the time - and that she needs to think about ways to improve her humour, including counselling perhaps. I'm not going to push the "make up with (my brother)" angle on either of them. I have a habit of meddling, when people fall out. It's well intentioned, but sometimes it does tend to backfire.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I know what you're saying. I can't abandon her, and I'm afraid that if I stop taking responsibility for her mental health then that's how she'll feel. I said yesterday that I was concerned about her. That she sounds tired, deflated, defeated and unhappy all the time - and that she needs to think about ways to improve her humour, including counselling perhaps. I'm not going to push the "make up with (my brother)" angle on either of them. I have a habit of meddling, when people fall out. It's well intentioned, but sometimes it does tend to backfire.

So you don't think she is doing this to keep you around?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Seriously though, you're right. A few of those comments have come via PM and it follows a pattern. The person says something nasty (eg "I wouldn't care if you died tomorrow, I'd just find somebody else to have a crush on") I respond in a fairly nonchalant sort of way and it invokes further criticism of how cold and clinical I am. I think the "you're cold" line is something people who thrive on drama use in an attempt to draw in/retaliate against others who aren't buying what they're selling.

I wanted to respond to this in a separate post. I think that it's best to put certain posters on ignore and only engage with them when it suits you. I've found that has worked for me to keep them at arm's length. I find unwanted PMs intrusive and I put everyone on ignore from whom I don't wish to hear because they would not respect my boundaries.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Author
So you don't think she is doing this to keep you around?

 

Could be. If a couple of days go by where I haven't seen/spoken to her, I'll get concerned messages. My grandmother (her mother) was the same way. She doesn't need to play games to ensure I stay in touch. It's actually more likely to drive me away. Yesterday I visited and ended up leaving almost straight away because I could feel the joy being sucked out of me.

 

There's that sense of feeling a greater obligation/duty on account of my brother having opted out.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Author
I wanted to respond to this in a separate post. I think that it's best to put certain posters on ignore and only engage with them when it suits you. I've found that has worked for me to keep them at arm's length. I find unwanted PMs intrusive and I put everyone on ignore from whom I don't wish to hear because they would not respect my boundaries.

 

Yeah, that was somebody (now departed) who I had had friendly dealings with. He had a crush on me and several other women. This board does attract those guys from time to time. In your mind, you just have some casual online banter from time to time with them - but in their mind you've become one of their bitches.

 

F*cking people, eh? No wonder I'm thinking of getting a cat.

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites
It-is-what-it-is.

I am sorry you find yourself in this position.

 

I have a similar story with different details. I play the part of your brother.

 

My sister and I see the family obligation differently. No gender difference here, but I do not feel an obligation to solve all my parents problems.

 

Years ago I made a decision to distance myself from my parents to protect myself from the crazy behavior. After lots of "stuff" we are now at a point where it works for me, and it works for my father, but not my mother. You see I have a social relationship with my father (weather, sports) but my mother cannot be happy with a surface relationship and I do not trust them with my feelings.

 

Not sure if it helps to have someone who thinks more like your brother to discuss this with or not.

 

The only question I ask myself anymore is will I have regret. I make every decision on that, not on what my parents need. It sounds selfish, but I think of it as self preservation.

  • Like 5
Link to post
Share on other sites

Years ago I made a decision to distance myself from my parents to protect myself from the crazy behavior. After lots of "stuff" we are now at a point where it works for me, and it works for my father, but not my mother. You see I have a social relationship with my father (weather, sports) but my mother cannot be happy with a surface relationship and I do not trust them with my feelings.

 

Not sure if it helps to have someone who thinks more like your brother to discuss this with or not.

 

The only question I ask myself anymore is will I have regret. I make every decision on that, not on what my parents need. It sounds selfish, but I think of it as self preservation.

I could have written this post myself and the bolded is what I'm getting at.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
It-is-what-it-is.

Do you remember the Saturday Night Live episode with the add for the Disfunctional Family Christmas Album...I bet it's on YouTube.

 

Yeah...I remember thinking omg are they spying on us?

 

Edited by It-is-what-it-is.
Link
  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Author
I am sorry you find yourself in this position.

 

I have a similar story with different details. I play the part of your brother.

 

My sister and I see the family obligation differently. No gender difference here, but I do not feel an obligation to solve all my parents problems.

 

Years ago I made a decision to distance myself from my parents to protect myself from the crazy behavior. After lots of "stuff" we are now at a point where it works for me, and it works for my father, but not my mother. You see I have a social relationship with my father (weather, sports) but my mother cannot be happy with a surface relationship and I do not trust them with my feelings.

 

Not sure if it helps to have someone who thinks more like your brother to discuss this with or not.

 

The only question I ask myself anymore is will I have regret. I make every decision on that, not on what my parents need. It sounds selfish, but I think of it as self preservation.

 

Thanks for the post, IIWII. Yes, it is helpful to hear from somebody who has my brother's perspective. What you're saying about the small talk you can have with your dad really hits on something for me. I was asking both of them (brother and mother) if they can't just tolerate eachother for the sake of other family members at a family gathering. No need for these Godawful "family therapy style" conversations. Just civility and small talk. I was going to organise it outside to make it even less oppressive, but neither were willing so I haven't pushed it.

 

There is that part of me that feels my brother is being selfish. On the other hand, he has a growing family of his own who must take priority. I suspect that his situation is slightly different from yours in that he (my brother) tends to contribute quite heavily to the negativity - while decrying it. He did admit in our recent conversation that he has been very negative over the last few years due to business stresses which will hopefully be resolved soon.

 

He had been quite abusive to my mother some months ago - yelling and swearing at her. He tends to be of the view that people should just move on from that sort of thing, but the problem is that he doesn't meet the expectations he has of others. He is more like our mother than he cares to admit, in that he holds grudges forever - though he tries to portray himself as being more like our dad (who tends to fly off the handle, but never stays angry for very long).

 

Responsibility is one of those difficult things to measure. How much should you take, in any one situation? My feeling is that despite their flaws, our parents tried to be good parents and have been very generous to us over the years. My brother, I think, doesn't really want to accept that because it tends to make him feel guilty rather than grateful...and so that guilt manifests in all kinds of ways, and my mother (with her tendency to guilt trip) worsens it.

 

I think if he could feel and show some heartfelt appreciation, the guilt would go - and his relationship with my mother would improve. Unfortunately there's this endless cycle of him feeling guilty, detaching, experiencing more guilt tripping from my mother on the rare occasions they meet - and an ever deteriorating relationship in consequence. I definitely understand the "detach for your own sanity" thing, though. That's what he's advocating I do, and I suppose this thread is part of me trying to find the balance between being a good daughter and refusing to be swamped by parental misery.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Author
Do you remember the Saturday Night Live episode with the add for the Disfunctional Family Christmas Album...I bet it's on YouTube.

 

Yeah...I remember thinking omg are they spying on us?

 

 

Haha. God, I do have a dysfunctional family. I've finally made it! I'm a real Loveshacker!

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites
I definitely understand the "detach for your own sanity" thing, though. That's what he's advocating I do, and I suppose this thread is part of me trying to find the balance between being a good daughter and refusing to be swamped by parental misery.

My sister and I had an argument once or twice in the same way as you and your brother do. I don't blow up at my mother, we haven't had an argument for years, I simply try to keep her at arm's length when I'm in my home city as she tries to swamp me. My sister tells me I should be more understanding and go along with her more - which I then try. I dread going home every time. As an adult 41 year-old woman, I dread going home to my city and only do so when my mother asks me repeatedly. Every conversation we have is 'when are you coming home'. Well, way more frequently than I would prefer. I usually go when she 'threatens' to visit me in London because it feels infinitely more tolerable to visit her there than to have her here.

 

I just think a migraine attack is a physical warning that it's too much for you Taramere. We all experience anxiety and fear differently.

 

I think the ideal situation would be somehow to work out how to take this off your shoulders as your mother's mental and emotional health is not your responsibility. Especially considering that it is likely to be a never ending story. After her seeking counselling there would be something else I gather.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
It-is-what-it-is.

So I will share a little of my story and we will see....

 

My parents married very young, so the in hindsight i see that the maturity of their relationship was always strange. Hostility towards family members abounded, someone was always mad at someone.

 

Typical coping mechanism was to disown the errant family member. (I read someplace that using this as a coping mechanism is passed down, eek)

 

My sister and I were estranged for sometime in part to my mothers machinations. I used to say it was all her fault, but it was not.

 

Years ago by with this kind of nonsense, and I took the path your brother did for my own sanity and to protect my family.

 

Then my brother died suddenly.

 

Did my parents all of a sudden become different, no. But the "regret barometer" was discovered. I had regret and it was too late to change that.

 

Out of that I was able to begin to build an acceptable version of a relationship with my parents. One that does not put my health and well being at risk.

 

There were many many more horrible days to come, but I was able to feel somewhat balanced because I know that I have a way to guide me.

 

My sister feels like you do and now that we talk about it she can explain when she does something so she does not feel regret, it might be more than I would be willing to do. And that's ok.

 

My parents are older and not healthy so I know our time with them is limited. It does not change who they are. They are not all of a sudden nice, loving people, but I do use the regret meter more nowadays.

 

As for your story, you cannot fix your brother. You cannot fix your mother. And you certainly cannot fix the relationship between them

 

You can remind them that life is short, and can change in an instant, and they might want to make sure THEY have no regret.

 

You might also want to tell your dad that he is permitted to have an independent relationship with his son and family.

 

Ultimately, I do think your role as designated adult and peacemaker between your brother and your mother is destined to fail and drag you down with it.

 

Have a relationship with your mother. Do not tolerate bad mouthing of your brother or his family. Tell her life is short and she needs to live with no regrets. Have boundaries for what you can cope with and do not feel guilty if you can't handle it and need a break.

 

Tell your brother the same. Add that you hope he does not repeat the mistakes of your parents with his children (he needs counseling)

 

Stop trying to fix their relationship, it's not yours to fix.

 

Sometimes we cannot save people from themselves.

  • Like 5
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Author
My sister and I had an argument once or twice in the same way as you and your brother do.

 

We don't tend to argue so much as have these extended discussions. I'm pretty careful in how I approach this sort of thing with him. He's very much the guy who will spend 5 hours ranting and telling you how he feels about stuff, but has very little patience for listening to other people's complaints. As the younger child (and the female one, into the bargain) I had to adjust to that. So our discussions tend to end with him congratulating the pair of us for having such great communication in our sibling relationship - and me with an imminent migraine. God I sound like my mother again. Ever the martyr.

 

I don't blow up at my mother, we haven't had an argument for years, I simply try to keep her at arm's length when I'm in my home city as she tries to swamp me. My sister tells me I should be more understanding and go along with her more - which I then try. I dread going home every time. As an adult 41 year-old woman, I dread going home to my city and only do so when my mother asks me repeatedly. Every conversation we have is 'when are you coming home'. Well, way more frequently than I would prefer. I usually go when she 'threatens' to visit me in London because it feels infinitely more tolerable to visit her there than to have her here.

 

It seems to be the problem with some mothers. They're not happy with "arms length" communication. I think there's often a serious difficulty with letting go of their children, understanding that they are their own people.

 

Would you feel that she was encroaching onto your territory if she visited you in London? When I moved recently, my mother was helping me (needless to say). When we arrived in the flat, almost immediately she used the toilet. Iactually said to her "you could have gone before we got here (they don't live very far away...I know, I know....). I think you held it in deliberately so that you could mark your territory here." I said it as a joke, but I did actually feel this sense of irritation. We're more animalistic about that sort of stuff than we like to admit, I think.

 

 

I just think a migraine attack is a physical warning that it's too much for you Taramere. We all experience anxiety and fear differently.

 

I think the ideal situation would be somehow to work out how to take this off your shoulders as your mother's mental and emotional health is not your responsibility. Especially considering that it is likely to be a never ending story. After her seeking counselling there would be something else I gather.

 

I don't think I'll ever be at a place where I don't feel responsible to some extent for their (my parents) health and welfare to some degree, but I definitely do need to pull away a bit. When my maternal gran was alive, she and my mother talked on the phone every single day - except when we lived abroad. I think I might experiment with having a couple of days here and there when I don't visit and don't have any phone calls with my mother.

 

Though I don't usually start threads about personal stuff on here, it's really been helpful to post this down and get a perspective from other people. More than I would have realised. Trying to get the balance between preserving family relationships and not being swamped by them, and as you and IIWII are pointing is the big issue here for me, underneath the surface one of playing referee/mediator as my brother and mother fight.

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Author
So I will share a little of my story and we will see....

 

My parents married very young, so the in hindsight i see that the maturity of their relationship was always strange. Hostility towards family members abounded, someone was always mad at someone.

 

That sounds familiar.

 

Typical coping mechanism was to disown the errant family member. (I read someplace that using this as a coping mechanism is passed down, eek)

 

My sister and I were estranged for sometime in part to my mothers machinations. I used to say it was all her fault, but it was not.

 

Years ago by with this kind of nonsense, and I took the path your brother did for my own sanity and to protect my family.

 

Then my brother died suddenly.

 

Did my parents all of a sudden become different, no. But the "regret barometer" was discovered. I had regret and it was too late to change that.

 

I'm so sorry to hear that.

 

Out of that I was able to begin to build an acceptable version of a relationship with my parents. One that does not put my health and well being at risk.

 

There were many many more horrible days to come, but I was able to feel somewhat balanced because I know that I have a way to guide me.

 

My sister feels like you do and now that we talk about it she can explain when she does something so she does not feel regret, it might be more than I would be willing to do. And that's ok.

 

Yes, I think that's a good point. There's a big part of me that feels driven by a sense of duty and obligation, and I struggle with it a lot. When you have that conflict, you can tend to attract people who exploit it with guilt-tripping and manipulation. I have to watch who I let close, for that reason

 

My parents are older and not healthy so I know our time with them is limited. It does not change who they are. They are not all of a sudden nice, loving people, but I do use the regret meter more nowadays.

 

As for your story, you cannot fix your brother. You cannot fix your mother. And you certainly cannot fix the relationship between them

 

You can remind them that life is short, and can change in an instant, and they might want to make sure THEY have no regret.

 

Do you know...that's exactly where I am. I have this concern about my brother and how he will respond when my mother passes. I think it's going to be intensely difficult for him precisely because of all this crap that's going on. I've tried to hint that to him.

 

You might also want to tell your dad that he is permitted to have an independent relationship with his son and family.

 

My brother and my mother have both given him that message in the last few days.

 

Ultimately, I do think your role as designated adult and peacemaker between your brother and your mother is destined to fail and drag you down with it.

 

Have a relationship with your mother. Do not tolerate bad mouthing of your brother or his family. Tell her life is short and she needs to live with no regrets. Have boundaries for what you can cope with and do not feel guilty if you can't handle it and need a break.

 

Tell your brother the same. Add that you hope he does not repeat the mistakes of your parents with his children (he needs counseling)

 

Agreed on all counts. I'm alarmed by how much my brother talks about this sort of thing in front of his kids. When he really let off at my mother last year (swearing and shouting at her) it was in front of his daughter. I took her out of the house because I didn't want her to hear it. Of course, she was asking me what it was all about and I said "family tensions. They blow up now and again, and they're worse if you hold grudges about things."

 

What's a grudge? She asked. I told her and then something pretty horrible happened. She said "you hold grudges." I asked her why she said that. She took hold of my hand, pointed to the crooked finger (the one my brother broke when I was 11) and said "you hold a grudge about that." I've never spoken to her about it, and don't know where her view that I was holding a grudge about it came from - other than that my brother must have speculated in front of her that I hold a grudge about it.

 

Stop trying to fix their relationship, it's not yours to fix.

 

Sometimes we cannot save people from themselves.

 

I don't think I can fix their relationship, but it's a very big anniversary year for my parents - and it would have been nice if we could have had a get together that he and his family would have attended. However, that's maybe more about me wanting to play happy families in the way that other people do, than about achieving anything that would be beneficial.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
God I sound like my mother again. Ever the martyr.

I know you mean it in jest but you are extremely hard on yourself Taramere. Maybe it is because of your formative years as you described them on this thread but I'm still astonished that you see yourself in such a negative light based on some interaction with seriously disfunctional people on LS - while the regulars who count (like Pyro or Gorilla Theatre) think very highly of you. If you don't mind my analysing you so.

Would you feel that she was encroaching onto your territory if she visited you in London? [...]We're more animalistic about that sort of stuff than we like to admit, I think.

She is not allowed to stay in my flat. There are practical reasons for this too but she invited herself over and I said no.

I don't think I'll ever be at a place where I don't feel responsible to some extent for their (my parents) health and welfare to some degree, but I definitely do need to pull away a bit. When my maternal gran was alive, she and my mother talked on the phone every single day - except when we lived abroad. I think I might experiment with having a couple of days here and there when I don't visit and don't have any phone calls with my mother.

I think that's a great idea.

Though I don't usually start threads about personal stuff on here, it's really been helpful to post this down and get a perspective from other people. More than I would have realised. Trying to get the balance between preserving family relationships and not being swamped by them, and as you and IIWII are pointing is the big issue here for me, underneath the surface one of playing referee/mediator as my brother and mother fight.

I'm very pleased Tara. If you don't mind my analysing you further, I think it would help if you looked up codependency as a concept. Sort of relates to the beginning of my post: fixing people, fixing relationships, thinking negatively of yourself. Will you do that?

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Author
I know you mean it in jest but you are extremely hard on yourself Taramere. Maybe it is because of your formative years as you described them on this thread but I'm still astonished that you see yourself in such a negative light based on some interaction with seriously disfunctional people on LS - while the regulars who count (like Pyro or Gorilla Theatre) think very highly of you. If you don't mind my analysing you so.

 

Thanks Emilia. I think some childhood things do tend to stick, however hard you try to shake them off. You think they're gone, but then when you find yourself under stress they can re-emerge.

 

I'm very pleased Tara. If you don't mind my analysing you further, I think it would help if you looked up codependency as a concept. Sort of relates to the beginning of my post: fixing people, fixing relationships, thinking negatively of yourself. Will you do that?

 

I don't mind the analysis at all. I appreciate you taking the time...it feels like a proper counselling session! I read a very useful book about it a couple of years ago and definitely agree. My first profession was social work, and although we didn't call it co-dependence, the issue came up a lot in training and supervision. It's a very common tendency amongst people who gravitate towards helping professions, and one you have to watch - because the role of fixer is one that we can often fall into as a way of avoiding fixing our own sh*t.

 

The book (can't remember now what it was called) went into it in more depth. At some points I saw myself as the co-dependent, at others as the person co-dependents seek out...ie a friend I fell out with a few years ago when I let her down. I was shocked, at the time, by how glad I felt that the friendship was over. She'd been so incredibly supportive and there for me during some difficult times.

 

Guess what happened after I fell out with her? My life started moving forward. But yeah, co-dependence definitely features in my life. My most important/worst romantic relationship was with a guy I spent 5 years trying to "fix". If I ever have another relationship it's going to be with somebody who I don't think needs fixing - but unfortunately a lot of the guys who have demonstrated interest in me tend to be "you're good at tolerating difficult people - I need you to fix me" types.

 

That ex I mentioned, who I tried to "fix". One of his parting shots to me was "your only talent is for taking other people's crap calmly". That really hurt, because it felt so true. Not only true, but something I've always prided myself on. My ability to stay calm and reasonable when people are throwing it at me...and to be honest, it's a talent that has often served me very well professionally. Perhaps I need to do it less in my personal life, though.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't mind the analysis at all. I appreciate you taking the time...it feels like a proper counselling session! I read a very useful book about it a couple of years ago and definitely agree. My first profession was social work, and although we didn't call it co-dependence, the issue came up a lot in training and supervision. It's a very common tendency amongst people who gravitate towards helping professions, and one you have to watch - because the role of fixer is one that we can often fall into as a way of avoiding fixing our own sh*t.

Not at all, I find this all very fascinating, partly for personal reasons. What I find difficult is drawing the line between caring/nurturing and the first signs of codependence. I think it's easy to recognise when someone lives with an alcoholic trying to fix them but of course it can be much more subtle than that.

The book (can't remember now what it was called) went into it in more depth. At some points I saw myself as the co-dependent, at others as the person co-dependents seek out...ie a friend I fell out with a few years ago when I let her down. I was shocked, at the time, by how glad I felt that the friendship was over. She'd been so incredibly supportive and there for me during some difficult times.

 

Guess what happened after I fell out with her? My life started moving forward. But yeah, co-dependence definitely features in my life. My most important/worst romantic relationship was with a guy I spent 5 years trying to "fix". If I ever have another relationship it's going to be with somebody who I don't think needs fixing - but unfortunately a lot of the guys who have demonstrated interest in me tend to be "you're good at tolerating difficult people - I need you to fix me" types.

I gather it's something you have to watch for the rest of your life. People get into the mindset for different reasons. Mine was being the daughter of an alcoholic who - with hindsight - also suffered from depression. My parents also had an extremely unhealthy BPD-NPD style relationship (Hence my contribution to the long-going BPD thread in the Self Improvement section. Codependency at its finest).

That ex I mentioned, who I tried to "fix". One of his parting shots to me was "your only talent is for taking other people's crap calmly". That really hurt, because it felt so true. Not only true, but something I've always prided myself on.

Quite rightly so. The ability to take step back is in short supply. Your ex was clearly not capable of it.

My ability to stay calm and reasonable when people are throwing it at me...and to be honest, it's a talent that has often served me very well professionally. Perhaps I need to do it less in my personal life, though.

Enforcing boundaries, isn't it. I think this is how you screen out those that need 'help'. Ie those that crave to be controlled because that's how they perceive love. They think excessive caring is what love is, while in fact it's a form of control.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
ThaWholigan

I am having a similar dilemma with my brother and my mother. Their relationship becomes more and more drained by the day. My mum is an extremely emotional person, highly strung. While my brother is abrasive in manner and at times unnecessarily tenacious. I do tend to have to be mediator and it jars me because I understand both POVs. They seem to be at loggerheads all the time now.

 

Partly due to the fact that he didn't get as much attention or as much support in childhood than I did - through no fault of my mother or him. I had special needs so I tended to get more help - sometimes even to my chagrin. I did try to support my brother - I would take him to football, encouraged him to make music. My mother would do the same, she didn't play favorites at all, but she fussed over me a bit due to my perceived vulnerabilities, while my brother had to work stuff out on his own at times. Not exaggeratedly so, but it wasn't uncommon. Sometimes I had this beat over my head quite unfairly when I had problems, but I accepted that.

 

Nowadays, he has a less than rosy view of mum and I have to tell him sometimes to calm down in the way he speaks to her. He doesn't relent, so it's an ongoing problem I am trying to make him aware of - while trying to make sure my mum doesn't over-stress. She has high blood pressure currently, a couple years ago she reached 200/99 which was scary so I would rather keep things somewhat tranquil!!!

 

Tara, I think that the dynamic your brother has with your mother can be repaired but unfortunately cannot be forced. You getting caught in the middle is what they expect you to do, almost relying on your desire for peace as a sounding board for their anger. Sometimes, strategically removing yourself periodically can do wonders not just for you but for them too.

  • Like 4
Link to post
Share on other sites
You all need to be in counseling! Good luck!

Speak for yourself little psychiatrist.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
×
×
  • Create New...