22 year marriage, dissolving

[ThreeLegDog]

Sunday, on a long car ride back from a "parents' weekend away from the kid" (8yo son), the wife wants to have a discussion about “missing passion” in our lives, about how important that is to her and she is not getting it from me. She wants to be wanted at a gut level, passionate kissing and sexual desire, etc. Bottom line she wants either out of the marriage or “something else”.

 

The engineer side of me starts thinking of ways to solve this “passion problem”. (I’m 53. I’m not wanting sex like I did in my 20’s. Low-T could be the issue. I fix that, I fix missing passion, right?) The emotional side of me says “There is another man”. I ask at one point and she says “how would that make you feel if there were?” I don’t push, but file that response away. More discussion ensues. We agree to make plans to line up resources to help us: counseling, I see a Dr about low-T, etc.

 

Little sleep for me Sunday night. Monday I’m basically on auto-pilot. Get the kid to school. Go to work. I find the LoveShack community. I read. Lots of reading. Especially this thread: http://www.loveshack.org/forums/t274646/ I’m now convinced that there is definitely an OM. I reconcile this in my mind throughout the day, but I’m still going ahead with locating a couple’s counselor and coordinating our schedules.

 

I have a few IM’s with my wife (work-related). She wants to meet for dinner. I say “Sure. I am working out, but call me when you are done with work and we’ll go.” I work out, run grocery errands, get home and coordinate child care, and go off to meet wife for dinner.

 

More discussions ensue at the bar. (I didn't drink. I usually would, but didn't feel like it, go figure. I didn't have much of an appetite either.) She comes clean on seeing someone out of state for about 6 months. Says “Of course you knew or at least assumed, right?” Well, she /has/ been traveling for work quite a bit lately, but I didn’t extend it to having an affair, so no. She tells me various detail about him and the situation. I’m listening, quite a bit shell-shocked.

 

We come home, put the kid to bed and talk a bit more. She says she is willing to explore ways to resolve this. (She is very sorry. Doesn’t want to hurt me. Wants to work together. She says happens she wants to have both parents there for our son, etc.) I say a few things like “This was an expensive and hurtful route to take to get some passion.”

 

I thank her for being honest with me and willing to work things out, whatever route that might be. There is some crying on both of us. I try to get some sleep.

 

We’re still going ahead on counseling, but it will be difficult to schedule it. She is traveling next week. (And yes, she plans on seeing OM.)

 

My journey begins.

Edited September 13, 2011 by ThreeLegDog
readability

[Tiberius]

Your wife needs to come to therms with the fact, that she is not the 20 year old guys lined up for anymore. She is nearing an age where there are grandkids to look forward to.

[ThreeLegDog]

Tiberius: Agreed, but she's had $1000s of "body work" in the last few years. (Silly me thought it was for me ) She is fighting aging Big Time.

 

Also, there are no grand-kids in the picture -- just the 8yo son. We started late -- another long story there.

Edited September 13, 2011 by ThreeLegDog
fix typo

[LifesontheUp]

Umm, hello?!? She wants to work together with you but is going to see OM next week. Sorry but that isn't on. She's either working on the marriage or not. She's cake eating, time to put your foot done.

[ThreeLegDog]

Umm, hello?!? She wants to work together with you but is going to see OM next week. Sorry but that isn't on. She's either working on the marriage or not. She's cake eating, time to put your foot done.

 

I've been reading the QAs over at http://marriagebuilders.com and getting some pointers on how to do that.

 

(Is it that obvious that my mental faculties are not running at 100%?)

[GorillaTheater]

I sincerely hope you're not on board with your wife seeing another man, and of course I'm using "seeing" euphemistically. A few are, but I'm going to assume that this is NOT what you want, but that right now you're too hurt and confused, and maybe too desperate to "win", to make a decision based on what you want. Perfectly normal. It's a tough thing to work through, but regardless you have to start changing your mindset right now.

 

The following was written by a very wise man on another website who, after struggling with his wayward wife for nearly a year, finally woke up. At last word, his WW was begging for another chance, and he wasn't sure he wanted to bother.

 

Just Let Them Go

 

The end result?

 

The end result is to respect yourself in the end,

let go of the people that don't value you or respect you.

 

That is the end result.

 

The quickest way to get a cheating spouse back is to let them go with a smile on your face wishing them the best in life and hoping that everything works out in their relationship with their affair partner.

 

Seriously, the quickest way to get them back.

 

Nothing else works better or quicker.

 

Let them go.

 

Agree with them and their feelings,

"you should be with the OM, I hope he makes you happy, good bye"

 

Wouldn't that be true love?

 

If you really loved your spouse,

and wanted them to have what they really want in life which is the other person they're in love with,

wouldn't letting them go be the approach if you really love them?

 

Why focus on the affair or the drama associated with it?

Just let them go. Give them their freedom.

 

You can take a good hard look at yourself in the mirror everyday and improve yourself but do it for you, not for someone else, the changes will never stick when it's done for someone else, do it for your benefit and you will probably make those changes last much longer if not indefinitely - because it's for your benefit and you realize the importance and value in that benefit because YOU are involved.

 

I will never tell someone to change to entice a WAW back when she's been cheating on him. I don't care how bad a marriage, there is never an excuse for cheating. That is a personal decision that someone makes to cheat on their spouse. If a marriage is really bad, leave, get a divorce, speak up to your spouse and tell them flat out "this marriage sucks and if things don't change I'm going to leave you and find someone better" and if things don't improve, leave that person.

 

But cheating, no excuses.

 

Think about cheating.

A wayward spouse who cheats on their spouse goes behind their back, secretly, telling lies, feeling guilty, getting angry at their spouse for getting in the way of their fantasies but never owning up to their actions, never admitting what they're doing. If a person who cheats on their spouse felt justified in their actions, why hide and go behind their spouses backs when they start cheating, why lie, why make up excuses about late nights at work and going to a friends place and sleeping over because they drank too much and any other such nonsense?

 

Deep down, the cheating spouse knows there is something inherently wrong with their actions otherwise they wouldn't lie about their actions and hide what they're doing.

 

Fighting the affair? For what reason?

To compete with the OM or OW for your spouse?

What message does that communicate to your wayward spouse?

They have lots of value and you have none because now you have to compete with another person for their love? Competing with your wayward spouse's affair partner never works, it just prolongs an ugly drama filled process.

 

And for your last point,

The easiest way to show you will not tolerate cheating in your relationship is to let that person go. That is the easiest and most effective way to show this.

 

"Look wife/husband, I won't be in an open relationship with you, I won't give you X number of days, weeks, months to make your mind, if you really feel like you need to sit on the fence on this decision and can't decide between your affair partner and me well I will make the decision for you, you can be with them because I'm no longer an option. I love you and wish you a good life with them and hope it works out for you because it didn't work out for us. Now the best thing we can do for each other is to make this process as graceful and peaceful as possible for us and our children, I'll contact a lawyer/mediator and get started on the process of our legal separation/divorce."

 

You give them what they want.

You don't fight them on this issue.

You agree with their feelings,

they want to be with the other person, fine they should be with the other person, let them be with the other person.

 

You will never convince a person to change their feelings with your arguments and logic. You can not find one member on this website in a situation where they are dealing with infidelity where they got their spouse to change their mind about how they feel about their affair partner.

 

You can't say "don't love them, love me instead",

you can't say "look at me, I'm better in every way compared to your affair partner, pick me instead of them",

you can't say "you took marriage vows, you promised to love me"

 

I agree, you don't have to make it easy for your wayward spouse to have an affair, but when you let them go, "lovingly detach", you don't have to worry about making it easy for them. It's no longer your concern, they can have you or them but not both and not at the same time and since they've chosen to have an affair, they've made their choice, there is no profit in fighting that decision. Let them go and move on with your life, that is the quickest, easiest way to get them back.

 

You definitely don't support them financially and enable them, that would be weak, wussy, clingy, insecure behavior - something in you telling you that you need to support them financially while they're having an affair, hoping they'll realize how nice you are and come back to you.

 

Just let them go, have them move out or you move out and live a good life without them.

[ThreeLegDog]

Just Let Them Go

 

This is excellent! Just what I need. Thanks so much. (Man, I am so glad I found this place!)

[GorillaTheater]

This is excellent! Just what I need. Thanks so much. (Man, I am so glad I found this place!)

 

It's some of the best advice I've ever seen. You can never, ever go wrong dealing from a position of strength and honor. You're showing that you respect yourself too much to subject yourself to this crap behavior. You win the game by not playing.

 

Is this weasel married? His wife deserves to know what's going on so she can make her own decisions.

[Steen719]

Three,

I have sort of been where you are with a few differences. I also have been married 22 years and when my son was 7, my H had an affair with an old girlfriend in another city. I had no idea what was going on for 5 months, just that he wanted to leave me and my son and move back to his hometown. I found out, was ready to move on (even before I found out, because what can you do when someone wants to leave you?) and then he asked to stay together. BUT, even though I don't think he saw or talked to her until recently..who knows, I do think he still loved her (or thought he did??who knows??) when we decided to stay together to raise our son. I was younger than you are now, but not by that much.

 

Much has happened since then and I am not going to go through all of it, but among other things, which include inappropriate facebook stuff, he has contacted another old girlfriend and THE SAME GF HE HAD THE AFFAIR WITH!!! He says they are still friends..ha! I am divorcing him and there is a GREAT big part of me that wishes I had done this 14 years ago. My son is awesome and who knows how much is due to me staying with his dad? I don't and I really try not to go there in my mind, but here I am, 14 years later, divorcing the bum, in unbelievable debt due to his illness, dealing with his scum-sucking ways and financially much worse off than I was back then.

 

Now, I am not saying you need to throw your marriage away, but I wish caution you to do this. PLEASE do not stay in this relationship unless you absolutely know she is committed to YOU AND YOUR MARRIAGE. If she is not, you are asking for trouble somewhere down the road. When the counselor we saw back then told me he was not a serial cheater in her opinion, I took it as a reason to stay. The psychologist I saw recently told me that I allowed my decisions to be controlled by others and after I have given this some really deep thought, I realize that he is right. I am making my decisions now and I have faith that I am making the right decisions.

 

The fact that she still wants to see this other man does not bode well for you and she. She has betrayed the one person she should have stood by and she should have told you she was having problems with the passion in your marriage.

 

A side thing here: My H has issues with my lack of passion for him...I have had a hysterectomy (thanks to his gift of HPV) and I am a little older than you, so I too, do not have the passion of a 20 year old, or even a 30 year old!!. Add in his lack of attention and constant facebooking and his impotency issues with surgery/medications and we were not active. This has become totally my issue according to him, although he says his way to "wake me up" was to tell me he love me, but was not in love with me and he had been miserable for 14 years and felt like he had been in prison. I just do not care anymore. I don't care what he thinks, so that is where I am.

 

I wish you the best and I hope things improve. It is a crappy place to be where you are right now. Think long and hard before you decide to stay.

[ThreeLegDog]

It's some of the best advice I've ever seen. You can never, ever go wrong dealing from a position of strength and honor. You're showing that you respect yourself too much to subject yourself to this crap behavior. You win the game by not playing.

 

Is this weasel married? His wife deserves to know what's going on so she can make her own decisions.

 

Good advice. I like "Win the game by not playing"

 

I got weasel details this morning. (My wife is being open to a fault it seems. Almost like there is some kind of "I've been a bad girl - punish me" vibe. Weird.)

 

OM is divorced. Has kids (oldest is 18). Tech industry. blah blah blah.

 

Over the last couple of days, I have received the various speeches I've read about here. ("It's not you - it's me." "I love you but I'm not /in/ love with you." "He meets the needs you don't meet." etc.) Also some marriage history re-writing. It's almost like there is a cheaters manual passed out somewhere.

[Woggle]

Good advice. I like "Win the game by not playing"

 

I got weasel details this morning. (My wife is being open to a fault it seems. Almost like there is some kind of "I've been a bad girl - punish me" vibe. Weird.)

 

OM is divorced. Has kids (oldest is 18). Tech industry. blah blah blah.

 

Over the last couple of days, I have received the various speeches I've read about here. ("It's not you - it's me." "I love you but I'm not /in/ love with you." "He meets the needs you don't meet." etc.) Also some marriage history re-writing. It's almost like there is a cheaters manual passed out somewhere.

 

I think there is a secret training camp or something. They all act the same and say the same lines.

[Lisa_H]

How terrible! You must be absolutely at your wits end.

 

Nothing funny here, but I am in the "relationship help" business. I have posted on this forum before, but I have never done this....

 

I don't want to put my personal email or number on here. So if you enable PM's... I may be able to help.

 

I hope I am not breaking any rules, but your story just really touched me and I feel a need to reach out.

[GorillaTheater]

It's almost like there is a cheaters manual passed out somewhere.

 

Man, that's gospel. It's easy to think your situation's unique until you spend some time on boards like this. Then you realize it's the same, tired script 95% of the time. But here's the upside: you're not alone. There are literally millions of people in the world who have walked where you're walking. Small comfort, I guess, but "small" is better than "none". The other upside is that wayward spouses are so damn predictable. Try this: be cool, calm, collected and detached. And watch her start to warm up to you, probably within a week. It may or not mean anything on her part, and it's what you should be doing in any event, but think of it as a test to see if your wife is as predictable as the rest.

[GorillaTheater]

How terrible! You must be absolutely at your wits end.

 

Nothing funny here, but I am in the "relationship help" business. I have posted on this forum before, but I have never done this....

 

I don't want to put my personal email or number on here. So if you enable PM's... I may be able to help.

 

I hope I am not breaking any rules, but your story just really touched me and I feel a need to reach out.

 

PMs aren't enabled here until posters have hit some combination of length of time on the site and number of posts.

 

I mean no offense, but I hope you're not ginning up business here. If you really want to help with no profit motive, more power to you.

[Lisa_H]

I think there is a secret training camp or something. They all act the same and say the same lines.

 

There is an absolute reason they all act the same way and say the same things. I am going to try to put this into words without offending anyone.

 

Sometimes, there are just people who have such deep seeded issues they have never dealt with - it will happen no matter what.

 

However, most of the time there are deep seeded RELATIONSHIP issues that have piled up over the years and been ignored ----the person cheating sees no other way out -- as wrong as it may be.

 

I am not taking sides here --- just trying to let everyone know -- there is a way to work this out, get the passion back, find what you had before. It doesn't always work that way -- but with two committed people I have seen it happen over and over again.

 

I am not excusing the behavior, but there are reasons that people do the things they do. If you want to make your relationship work then you have to look for the reasons, not the excuses.

 

Most people who cheat on their spouse do not do it -- because they hate them or WANT to hurt them. They do it because there is something missing and it is NOT sex.

 

Please be gentle with me, I know I am going to catch lots of flack for this post.

[Lisa_H]

PMs aren't enabled here until posters have hit some combination of length of time on the site and number of posts.

 

I mean no offense, but I hope you're not ginning up business here. If you really want to help with no profit motive, more power to you.

 

No offense taken, and not my motive at all. I have been helped by someone and it is WAY different than traditional counseling. I have been there, done that, it didn't work for me. I just want to share what did work for me.

 

I love this forum and there are lots of great people here. I enjoy helping people out.

[andyg99]

dog - you have got some great advice here, not much I can add... she has shown zero repect for you and your feelings... going to see the OM? is she f-n kidding!?!?! listen to gorilla, take the high road, tell her 3 is a crowd and move on... make your child and yourself your top priority, that's one decision you will never regret, trust me!

[ThreeLegDog]

Thanks all for the advice. I am reading and re-reading, internalizing...

 

I am lining up legal now in order to have options from zero to uncontested divorce to scorched earth (lets hope not).

[GorillaTheater]

What's the latest, Three? Are you hanging in there okay?

[ThreeLegDog]

Latest? My day is divided into 15 min chunks: 5 min of despair; 5 min of terror; 5 min of calm resolve. Repeat.

 

Found a newly-purchased bag of lingerie when I got home last night. Left it. Didn’t say anything. It was gone soon after my wife got home. Whatever.

 

I am doing the "180 list". I also have personal and couples counselor appointments set up, as well as my own initial consultation with a lawyer.

 

Weirdest thing just happened though. My wife (sorry, but I don’t have the abbreviations down yet) just called, wanting to go out on a movie date tonight. I wanted to say, WTF? I kept calm and said that I had a prior commitment with our son to hang out as I am traveling this weekend.

 

Land of confusion, man.

[GorillaTheater]

The fear is one of the toughest things to let go of, but you know you're strong enough to handle whatever happens. If you don't know, then trust me, you are strong enough. You have depths of strength you haven't even tapped yet. Let the fear go.

 

Tough news about the lingerie, that must have cut deep. Fodder for those mind movies that you're probably struggling with anyways.

 

But well done on declining your wife's invitation. She has to assure herself, in her own mind, that she's not a bad person. So much of what you're going to be dealing with for some time to come is her insistence that she's really a good person and if anything, you drove her into the affair (because how could a "good" person like her have an affair otherwise?). Ignore this bullsh*t. If you're like any other man, you probably have things you can work on (so go ahead and work on them, for you). She's not a good person, at least not right now and not for the foreseeable future, and she owns her affair in it's entirety. So anyways she invites you out, looking for validation from you that she is indeed a good person, which you would demonstrate by accepting her invitation. Personally, I'd expect anger from her soon, if you haven't seen it already.

 

I don't know that I'd bother with couples counseling; it will do absolutely no good as long as she's still in the affair.

 

Let her go. File for divorce and see if that wakes her up. If not, you're marriage was doomed anyways.

 

And take care of yourself. Eat, sleep and exercise. Get a gym membership if you don't have one. If nothing else, it'll give you an excuse to get out of the house.

[ThreeLegDog]

That's good insight into her needing to not feel like a bad person. I was taking it differently.

 

As far as couples counseling, earlier this week I suggested it and she wanted to do it. I am holding up my side of that deal. If she doesn't want to work on things, well ... the opportunity was made available.

 

We haven't had any deep discussions in a couple of days, but when we did I was driving home the "Let Them Go" speech. I expect a blow-up soon.

[Steen719]

So anyways she invites you out, looking for validation from you that she is indeed a good person, which you would demonstrate by accepting her invitation. Personally, I'd expect anger from her soon, if you haven't seen it already.

 

Wow, Gorilla, this is so true. My H keeps asking me to go out to dinner with him...um...No, I do not want to do that..really, are you kidding me? Then one day, when I said no, he said.."well, I am trying..see I really am". OK...too little, too late...but you are right, Gorilla. He was trying to make himself look good. Now he is getting mad at me; I am going forward with the divorce.

 

Sorry TLD...hope you feel better soon. The good thing is that most people get to a better place in their minds and the calm reserve chuncks will get bigger.

[ThreeLegDog]

Now that I know what's going on, W has been exhibiting quite a bit of "good person validation" behaviors recently.

 

She bought a new suitcase for me to use on my trip this weekend. She called last night, "I'm off work. Do you want me to pick up food on the way home? Do you want anything from the store on my way home?" She excitedly showed me some Halloween decorations she bought. I was thinking, "You really think things are normal around here and we're going to have a normal Halloween?"

 

Before, I would have thought these were returning, conciliatory actions. Now, I am viewing them with an appraising eye.

 

Thanks Gorilla, for the advice on this!

Edited September 16, 2011 by ThreeLegDog
more info

[carson2002]

If you make it to couples MC are you going to hit her with the bag of lingere question? it would be interesting to see her response.