looks like separation or divorce

[onedayatatyme]

Our reconciliation isn't working out. After weeks of getting the c**p beat our of me verbally, I started pushing back. This escallated into some fresh arguments. She's at the end of her rope and I guess so am I. Last week she said she wanted to move forward toward divorce. We had MC the next day which turned into a he said/she said bitch fest. Our MC stopped us and tried to talk us into keeping things amicable through the D for the sake of the kids. We're going to meet with a divorce mediator today.

 

After our bitch fest, W showed real remorse for the affair. I told her and the MC that I truly didn't know if she was sincere because on every other day for the last month and a half all I've heard is how much I've screwed everything up and it's all my fault. The MC explained that is purely a defense mechanism so she doesn't have to feel constant guilt about the affair (because no-one will allow themselves to feel like s*** constantly). I know this really f***ed up defense machanism is already familiar to many of you here on LS. On the other hand, she's going for mom of the year with the kids (which I'm sure is also driven by guilt).

 

I'm still going to make her file for the D. I just don't think I can bring myself to do it. It still isn't what I want. I told her that I'd leave that up to her and that my approach to this meeting this afternoon was simply to have some questions answered about the process.

 

Part of me still thinks this could be salvaged if we could break this crazy emotional cycle we're on. We were apart this weekend. While alone, I figured that I have nothing to lose by suggesting a total and complete separation. Maybe a few months apart would calm us both down and heal some of the wounds. Together right now, I think all we've accomplished is picking at the wounds and openning them up again.

[spriggig]

...The MC explained that is purely a defense mechanism so she doesn't have to feel constant guilt about the affair (because no-one will allow themselves to feel like s*** constantly).

 

I'm sorry things aren't going well for you right now. Thank you for posting this, it helps me understand my wife, who also cheated, and our situation a little more.

[Gunny376]

Having been through what your going through? I would suggest a year of separation with as much NC as is possible.

 

Not to just to sort through your problems and issues of your marriage ~ but to ask the questions you need to ask about where your at in your life?

 

You need to separate, (not divorce) just to get out the addictive cycle of arguing.

 

The time to divorce is when you both just don't even care anymore.

 

Both of you should get into IC and MC on an individual basis.

 

Read Eric Weber's "How To Win Back The One You Love" which is more about communication, how to argue effectively, fairly, and constructively. (And other things dealing with a breakup)

 

Also I would recommend "Me! Five Years From Now" Which isn't so much a book that you read as it is a book you write. It asks questions about yourself, your life, your job, your marriage, your relationships with others ~ your Life. Where you've been, where your at, and where you want to go in and with your life? You fill in the blanks to the questions.

[onedayatatyme]

Alright, we have two kids. W has no income (she is a full time student who has depended on me to cosign student loans up to this point). If we separate, my inclination is to make it as close to the circumstances of a D as possible.

 

This would mean giving her financial support only equal to what I would provide post D. This is not meant to punish her or to make her life unecessarily harsh. I simply mean for her to experience the full measure of reality.

 

My understanding is that (assuming she would get custody), I would owe her $1500 a month in child support and nothing more. I do not believe I would owe any spousal support whatsoever. If I get custody, I would be obligated to provide zilch as far as financial support. She is under a different impression than that (hopefuly we can get this question resolved with the D mediator this afternoon). I have told her that out of the kindness of my heart I would be willing to support her for 4-6 months while she gets on her feet. Cutting her off cold turkey will hurt the kiddos and I won't have that. She needs a safe place to live, reliable transportation and to put food on the table. 4-6 months seems reasonable (actually generous, imo) for her to find a job and make necessary lifestyle and routine adjustments.

 

I'm inclined to give separation to her with both barrels. Not be mean, vindictive or to seek revenge but just to go full 180 on her. She needs to understand the reality of D (I don't think she is the type to understand consequences until they hit her in the face). What say the LS'ers?

[spriggig]

What say the LS'ers?

 

Wow! I asked virtually this same question two weeks ago, so I know the answer will be "go for it, make it as uncomfortable for her as you can to snap her back to reality".

 

I'd just like to add "Good Luck!" LOL.

[Gunny376]

I agree with you.

[onedayatatyme]

I'd just like to add "Good Luck!" LOL.

 

Yeah, I think it's a shot in the dark. But if we're going to try on divorce for size, we might as well do it right.

 

What thread was your question asked in so that I can go read those responses?

[carhill]

OP, spriggig's backstory is here.

 

IME, it takes more than a little MC to get past the bitch-fests. We were at it (MC) for over a year. I resolved to the 'not care' place and presumably stbx did too since the D so far is amicable. We've been living separately about a year now. D should be final in a couple of months.

[OrangeKin]

I'm inclined to give separation to her with both barrels. Not be mean, vindictive or to seek revenge but just to go full 180 on her. She needs to understand the reality of D (I don't think she is the type to understand consequences until they hit her in the face). What say the LS'ers?

 

The part about someone who doesn't understand the consequences until reality hits them in the face, sounds like my H.. but he will conveniently forget and do it again

 

I like your perspective of doing this not out of a place of anger, which is where I used to be up until very recently. I find things just work much more smoothly when vengeance is out of the equation.

 

Good luck!!

[onedayatatyme]

We went to the mediator yesterday afternoon. It was pretty informative and cleared up several misconceptions that W had about how this is all going to go down. By the end of it, W's body language was all defensive. Arms crossed, looking deep in thought. I don't think she liked a whole lot of what she heard.

 

Chief on the top of the list is that she isn't entitled to any alimony at all. In our state there is a minimum length of the marriage before the judge could even consider granting alimony. Before this meeting, W was 100% certain that she could get support from me because "three attorneys told her so". Either all three were very incompetent, she's a liar trying to scare me, or she had her head up her azz and heard what she wanted to hear. I'm betting on number 3.

 

Heard something else that should scare the crap out of her since I told her I'm going to go for custody. In our state whichever of us is going to end up paying child support is going to have to pay 25% of net income to the other. I figured since she is unemployed, I would get nothing. I was cool with that, don't need it, whatever man. But the mediator said there is a minimum child support level!!! HAHAHAHAHA!!! The state legislature assumes that everybody can get a 40 hour a week minimum wage job. So if I get custody, bye bye school. She has to go to work to pay ME child support. Sweet justice. All I have to do is win custody.

 

Don't worry, I don't need the lecture about doing what's right for the kids. I've already made up my mind and my honest assessment is that the kids will be better off with me. I'm going for custody for that reason, not to make her squirm. Making her squirm is gravy... very, very tasty gravy.

 

One more thing that he said that was VERY graphic and should REALLY make her nervous. Whoever ends up paying child support will also be on the hook for paying for the kids health insurance. And this insurance requirement is not negotiable or optional. Our state legislature, in all their wisdom, doesn't care if kids in a married household have insurance. But somebody is required to pay for kids of divorce to have insurance. If the person responsible doesn't provide, they go to jail... period. Those were the mediators words. I hope she was listening to that part. I hope it sunk in because all of this is going to get very real soon.

 

If we end up forging forward to D, I am in the catbird seat. I've got the good job. I can afford this divorce, even if I end up getting stuck with the student loans that I co-signed for, I can survive and afford it. Even if I end up paying child support, that will financially be better for me than if I have the kids with little or no child support coming from her (just won't be better for the kids long term development). I can afford to provide for their insurance, it's already a benefit of my job and costs next to nothing for me... less than $100 a month.

 

I've always been able to live like a priest. If necessary, I can simplify my life and dig myself out of debt in a year or two. No problem, all I have to do is keep my job. All of our bills and our more than our means lifestyle was engineered by W because of her insatiable need for material crapola and to keep up the appearance of a perfect life. She wants to be one of the Kardashians, I swear. In losing the marriage, I will ultimately win the battle for financial sanity, stable future for the kids, and retirement for me.

 

I knew that she was stressed about all of the financial implications. Right after the meeting we went to pick up our older daughter from W's best friends mom's house. Best friend's brother showed up when we were there and W says to him "Brother, I need some money". That was her greeting to him. Then she took our daughter and they got their nails done. She's used me up and she's immediately looking for the next poor bastard to suck dry. I feel sorry for that guy if she's got her sights on him. He seems like a good, decent, christian guy.

 

My prediction is that whoever the next guy is, he is going to hear her story of victimhood about how her family abandonded her in her time of need and they all sided with her ex. Her ex was ruthless and left her penniless after she worked for 10 years to give him love and keep house and raise the kids. Oh, poor innocent victim, nobody ever understood her. The world is out to get her... etc. etc. Blah, blah, blah.

 

Did I tell you guys that in the midst of all of this she wants to trade our Tahoe in on a used BMW 550? Anybody familiar with a 550? Not cheap. When I suggested that she trade in the Tahoe on something more practical and use the extra cash to help pay for school (since I'm not co-signing another loan), she went ape s***. "I'm not trading down to some piece of crap car." If it's not german, british, or a monster loaded SUV it's a POS to her. A used Civic or Corolla to her is automatically a POS, even if it's 2 years old with 30k miles. Shows where her priorities really are.

[carhill]

Be sure to factor in legal fees if it becomes a contested divorce. Mediation is great when people can find middle ground and agree. Budget about 50K and work from there. Good luck

[onedayatatyme]

$50k? I have heard more like $15k. I hope it's more like the latter. $50k would hurt pretty darn bad. Not much I can do about it though, except not incur any more debt.

[carhill]

Cost me 5K to make a minor trust change which required a court hearing. Do you understand what a contested divorce entails? Disclosures, forensic accounting, motions, child custody hearings, on and on. 50K/300 per = 166 hours, not including filing fees, notary fees, court fees, accounting fees, consulting fees, etc, etc.

 

Crunch the numbers and hope to hell that mediation flies and you can arrive at an amicable agreement wrt income, assets, child and spousal support, etc. MC helped us. YMMV. Good luck

[unsureLP]

Oy. I'm sorry to hear the situation is heading this way. How have your kids been through all this? do they know about mom's affair (I really hope not, at least not yet - they're so young!) or even that you guys might not stay together much longer?

 

All this money stuff is scary with a divorce. I hope you end up ok! As for your W, she needs to wake up. A two year old 30K mile car is a pos? Just because it's a practical little coupe? Maybe it's because I'm a poor graduate student, but that doesn't seem so bad. Plus, does she not understand that she can't continue to live in that kind of a lifestyle straight out of the divorce? Not unless you're a millionaire and she milks you for your money. Ugh, the way you describe her she sounds pretty shallow.

 

You sound like you're pretty angry too. How are you holding up emotionally?

 

Hang in there and I hope things turn out ok one way or the other.

[onedayatatyme]

Kids have no idea right now about anything. We've hidden all the strife and are very civil in the presence of the kids. They have no idea about the affair and are way to young to even understand what that means. I'm sure one day they'll ask what really happened with us and I'll be thinking for years how much to tell them when they're old enough.

 

Our older daughter makes cards all the time. Hearts and Mommy and Daddy holding hands. It breaks my heart. They will have to find out soon enough and I hope we can make it easy on them, especially our 6 year old. She's going to be crushed I'm affraid.

[mimidarlin]

I hope mediation flies for you as well. Making you pay more for a divorce doesn't seem likely to get her more money but she might do it for satisfaction. So I'm not saying you should kiss her bum but don't ruffle to many feathers either. That $35,000 would be better spent on the kids.

 

Wow...she needs to wake up. She wants to trade in her car? Go for it sweetie once the divorce is final. We will not be accruing any new debt during this time!!! Let's see you go to school, pay car payment, insurance, health insurance, child support, rent, utilities etc. If she can "afford" a new car when the divorce is final let her go for it.

[Gunny376]

Thank you for introducing me to John Muir!

[onedayatatyme]

Wow...she needs to wake up. She wants to trade in her car? Go for it sweetie once the divorce is final. We will not be accruing any new debt during this time!!! Let's see you go to school, pay car payment, insurance, health insurance, child support, rent, utilities etc. If she can "afford" a new car when the divorce is final let her go for it.

 

Yeah, she's in deep dookie with regard to money no matter what she gets out of a divorce. Not that I would want her to stay with me just for security but it does make one wonder how affair fog can be so thick that she would want to split rather than fix our very fixable problems.

 

Our story is common enough on LS. H doesn't support W's emotional needs, W doesn't respect H. Communication is terrible. It's a convoluted chicken and egg problem and it ultimately doesn't matter which came first. But communication problems can be fixed. We can both come from this wiser and work on the problems in MC. Affair wounds can heal. I don't have any inexcusable vices or repeated sins. Damnit, I haven't even committed a single heinous marital sin let alone a pattern of behavior. I'm bad about not putting dishes in the dishwasher and sometimes I wear the wrong color socks. And I'm willing to work on those... I can buy new socks, I can improve my domestic habits. "I just don't get it", I say as I sigh with resignation.

 

Now that I have typed this, I know that I am inviting the inevitable advice of, "Honey, it's not you, it's her." I know this. She simply may not love me anymore and if so, there isn't a darn thing I can do about it. Doesn't make me feel like any less of a failure though. Still wake up every morning wanting to give this 100% until the ink is dry on divorce papers.

[onedayatatyme]

W, now my STBX I guess, just told me that she met with her attorney today to get the petition started.

[carhill]

Well, if it's anything like Cali, she'll have a retainer for the lawyer, here between 3 and 5K, and court filing fees and service fees, here about 400.00. Since it sounds contested, you'll have to respond, legally and file that response with the court. Another 350-400.00 plus any legal fees to process the response/retain a lawyer.

 

Get ready

 

I just filled out the FL140, 141, 142 today, which are disclosure/affidavit of service documents. Took me about three hours. Our D is amicable and uncontested so about as inexpensive as you can get. I'll lose a couple grand in billable shop hours and have about 1500.00 in legal and process fees once it's said and done. I hope you end up closer to my number than the estimate I provided for you. I hope

[mimidarlin]

You're welcome Gunny!!

 

I'm with you oneday...I'm having difficult with letting go. But if they don't love us then we can't hold them. Mine STBX is taking one hell of a financial hit. He would rather do this than try to work out issues. Guess that makes it pretty obvious he is committed to a divorce. Try letting go with love. Try to find a peace inside.

[onedayatatyme]

My now stbx hasn't even told her mother yet that we're having problems and certainly hasn't told her we're getting a D. I don't know if I mentioned this in any previous threads, but my mother in law has been in another state helping my sister in law with her baby. She's been over there for about 6 months. We flew my mother in law in two days ago. Nobody has said anything to her yet.

 

My stbx is passing the buck to her father who was supposed to talk to her two days ago, then yesterday but "never got a chance". Dad's obviously chickening out and so is my stbx. I've told her twice (and I won't advise her again on this) that I think it is HER place to tell her mother and nobody elses. She says, "This is how my dad wants to handle it". She's an independent woman when it's convenient and daddy's little obidient child when it's convenient too. I know I should be above this but these games are really pissing me off. I feel like they are going to water down the message to mom or shift the facts just enough to protect my stbx and I'm going to look like the bad guy.

 

I've told both my stbx and my father in law that I won't be an accomplice in any lie or half truths they tell my mother in law. She deserves the truth and while she doesn't need every detail and doesn't even need to know that there is an affair, they should not give her the impression that it's me leaving this marriage or that this D is somehow a mutual decision.

 

Why is everybody walking on eggshells around my mother in law? She's got a history of depression and her emotional reactions to serious events are unpredictable. Because of that everybody is simply affraid of her. She might lock herself in a room and not come out for days. She might explode on my stbx. We don't know. On top of this, everybody is worried that if she reacts badly, she won't return to the other state to help my sister in law with the baby and that would put my sister in law in a very tough spot. She is scheduled to go back tomorrow.

[unsureLP]

If your stbx is so worried about her mom and the position she's putting her sister in, well, she should have thought about that before doing all this! She should have thought about your kids before she had this A.

 

I've been reading all this stuff on LS and I just don't get it. Everybody has problems in their marriage at one point or another. Why the f*** people think it's ok to react to them by having an A?????

 

Ugh. Your wife gets no sympathy from me on her mother's reaction. They better tell her the truth.

[onedayatatyme]

Stbx and I are in LC mode. It's a tough day today. It's her birthday. On Tuesday I took our girls to shop for their mom. I let them pick out whatever they wanted and helped them pick out cards. It was soooo tough trying to be excited for them. They are so beautiful and completely oblivious to this very serious change in their world that is on the horizon. It really is a wonderful thing that they love their mom and I want them to be excited about doing things for her birthday and I don't want to spoil that innocence.

 

This morning I reminded them it was Mommy's birthday so they could tell her "Happy Birthday". I told her the same and we went on about our business. On the way to school, our oldest asked what we could do to make Mommy's birthday really special. I didn't have an answer. I just told her that she could think of something and I would help her do it.

 

Then this morning my sister in law sends me the following email:

 

"Hello brother,

I know things are tough right now. I know [stbx] has made many mistakes but I only hope and pray that she realizes what she has done and learns a good lesson. Also, I wanted to ask you to let [stbx] know that eventhough you may not agree with her actions that you still love her and want to wish her a good b-day. I think [stbx] may be surprised and trust me she will realize that she has lost something good. She just has too much pride to admit it. Well, have a good day!"

 

So after much thought and deliberation, I sent my stbx a text. Not in an effort to win her back (It's all beyond potential recon for both of us) but to try to be the bigger person and let her know that I still care. So I sent her the following. A little context, a few days ago she mentioned what they might do tonight and felt me out to see if I was interested in participating. It will be a family thing. I didn't respond at the time:

 

"I will understand if I'm not invited to whatever you are doing tonight. I would go along if you invited me though.

 

Whatever you want, I hope your birthday celebration is special.

 

[Oldest daughter] asked me on the way to school what we could do to make your birthday special. I told her that she could think of something and I would help her.

 

The girls did get you presents. They are still in my car. The presents were their idea. They were very excited to pick them out. It was beautiful. The presents themselves are nothing special but know that they really came from their heart. Those girls love you as much as the whole wide world."

 

Got no response. Not a thank you or anything. So LC continues. Even that little bit of rejection of not getting a response hurts.

[carhill]

I fervently hope your dynamic is different, but, if I had ever heard something like that from my stbx's family, I would've immediately called BS. Your stbx has a mouth. She can use it and let her actions back it up. She doesn't need a sister to talk for her. That's my .02