three years & still lost ...

[joekurtz]

[FONT=Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif][sIZE=1][COLOR=#000000]posted September 28, 2007 08:51 AM [/COLOR][/sIZE][/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif][sIZE=2]As we're fast approaching the month of October & the 10th, which will be my 46th birthday, I'm begining to experience a major depression about where my life is, where it's going & where it's been stuck for the past three plus years. This is BTW, on top of the usual, everyday depression that I've been dealing with for the past several years.

 

I don't want to compose a novel length piece with this initial post, so I'll try to keep my story down to the basics for the moment & be as concise & linear as possible, so as not to bore you all to tears. OK?

 

All right, here goes ...

 

When I met my wife in October of '99, I was involved in a long term live in relationship with the mother of my two children ( my daughter & my son who were 7 & 1 years old at the time ). A relationship that had been rocky for various periods of time & one that I was complacent, but really very happy in.

 

During this period of time, I was also dealing with the death of my Mom who'd passed just a few months earlier as a result of cancer. Which was causing me to evaluate where I was, who I was & what I wanted out of life. You know, a lot of existential stuff.

 

And the only things that I was REALLY sure of was that I loved my two kids. Other than that, I was just lost ...

 

But, then I met my wife-to-be Vicki at work & fell head over heels in love with her. She was beautiful & lust had a WHOLE lot to do with it, but we also had a lot in common & she basically represented everything that I'd ever wanted in a woman. Being around her made me realize how much I'd been missing in my eight year relationship with Donna, the mother of my children.

 

Whom I cared for a great deal & yes, loved, but I realized, I'd never actually been IN LOVE with. Know what I mean?

 

The fact that she never seemed happy with who I was or what I did for a living or how much $$$ I made, definitely didn't help either. But, truth be told, though I spent eight years living with her & had remained monogamous the entire time, our relationship was based MUCH more on our being parents than it ever was about the two of us being a couple.

 

So, I met Vicki at work & it was love at first sight. An instant attraction that was obvious to both of us that resulted in us meeting one night after work, this following a couple of weeks of flirtation.

 

She was going through a divorce at the time & things were so intense that night that she immediately moved out of the house that they were still sharing & got an apartment closer to where I lived. And, although it was out of the blue & one of the toughest things that I'd ever had to do, I followed suit a couple of days later by telling Donna that I was involved with someone else & that I was going to move in with her.

 

Which, I guess, for many here, would make me the villain of this piece. Right?

 

And to be sure, I felt like it. Even though Donna could be incredibly difficult to get along with & I didn't have the feelings for her that I should have had for someone who bore me two terrific children ( one of them just one year ealier ), I HATED hurting her. And I absolutely, positively, LOATHED moving even five minute away from my two babies, but I had to.

 

And,there was no way that I was going to carry on an affair for any period of time. That in my mind would have been a lot worse than breaking off my relationship with Donna. But, I'm not going to attampt to be pious about my decision, the fact is, I just HAD to be with Vicki as much as possible & I wasn't about to make her my "other woman", I needed her to be my "only woman".

 

So, we began living together, Vicki, her ten year old daughter from her first marriage & myself. And after the usual early bumpy ride of a custody hearing & all that, Donna & I shared custody of our two children. Who began spending as much time at my home with Vicki & her daughter as they did at their mom's.

 

Then in March of 2000, we found out Vicki was pregnant & we had our daughter together in November of that year. Making for one big happy family. After which on February 10th of '01 we were married.

 

Great so far right?

 

Well, please stay tuned for station identification & we'll be right back ... [/sIZE][/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif][sIZE=1]Posts: 6 | From: Buffalo, NY | Registered: Sep 2007 | IP: [COLOR=#0000ff]Logged[/COLOR] | [/sIZE][/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif][sIZE=2]joekurtz [/sIZE][/FONT]

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[/sIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif][sIZE=1][COLOR=#000000]posted September 28, 2007 10:14 AM [/COLOR][/sIZE][/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif][sIZE=2]I loved Vicki more that anyone I'd ever loved in my entire life. Hands down. No Question.

 

Other than my own flesh & blood offspring, I loved her THE most. I adored her. And I tried like hell to show her that, but as none of us are, I wasn't perfect.

 

My ex, Donna was a major problem in our relationship. THE major problem.

 

While periods of time would go by in which she'd mind her own business & we'd all get along, they'd be many other periods of time when she'd make life hell for me/us the only way she knew how, through the kids. My two children with her.

 

She's cause scenes & constantly question are parenting choices ... I'm sure many, many of you know the routine. Just silly, bothersome stuff that I'd just want to blow off & ignore. But, which would really **** off Vicki because the vast majority was directed at her as the step-parent.

 

My problem was that I'm a born diplomat. I hate confrontations & ugly scenes. After growing up in a household in which both my parents were alcoholics who would frequently get into horrific arguments & fights that would almost always end with physical abuse inflicted upon my Mom, I'd been playing the role of the mediator from a VERY young age.

 

I used to lay awake at six - seven years old just waiting for my parents to return home from a night of drinking, so that I could run out into the kitchen & try to break things up once they erupted. So, this is the role that I automatically fell into when scenes would occur between Donna & Vicki.

 

Like I did so often with my Mom, I'd get Vicki "out of harm's way" ( things never really got physical between the two of them, but only because I prevented it ) by sending Vicki inside the house while I dealt with Donna's latest BS.

 

Which, I always saw as me protecting Vicki from having to deal with the nonsense, but which she saw as me being dismissive to her & somehow "siding with Donna" ( no matter how often I attampted to explain myself to her ).

 

Now that we've established the only point of contention in our marriage we'll fast forward to 2002, when I found the letter in Vicki's purse.

 

I'd been feeling that Vicki'd been a little pre-occupied or distant for a while, but didn't REALLY suspect anything. So, when I had to get our car keys out of her purse after she'd come home from work one day in October, I was shocked to discover a letter from her to our next door neighbor Phil.

 

In it, she was apologizing for having missed a planned meeting between the two of them in the parking lot of her workplace. In it she claimed very strong feelings for him & said that she "needed him".

 

Apparently, I'd found the letter before she'd had the chance to get it to him.

 

Needless to say, I was crushed.

 

You know, all the usual cliche's. Shock. Denial. Anger ...

 

When I confronted her with it, it was her turn to be shocked. And she never, ever really gave me a straight answer about it. At first, she said that it was "a joke". Then said that it was just a "flirtation". To this day, five years later, she's still never been entirely truthful with me about exactly what went on between the two of them.

 

Which, obviously, put a tremendous strain on our marriage & our relationship. Though we tried to work it out, I was always suspiscious about her & when there's no trust, it makes it incredibly difficult to go on.

 

But, **** it, I loved her so **** much. I couldn't imagine wanting anyone else BUT her.

 

While all this was going on, trouble with Donna kept rearing it's head & she began hounding me about how much better she thought life would be for her & our two kids if she was able to move down to North Carolina where her mother lived. She wanted to take them & start over there with them coming back up her to live with Vicki & our kids on holidays & during the summers.

 

An idea that I was 110% against to begin with because I just couldn't imagine being apart from my two oldest baies for that distance & those lengths of time. But, eventually with everything going on between Vicki & I & with Donna just never letting up about it, I finally agreed to it.

 

I honestly thought that it would help to save my marriage to Vicki, it would get Donna out of our lives & that the kids would eventually be happier not having to deal with all the contention between the two households. So, in November of 2003 Donna & the kids moved to North Carolina.

 

Which, immediately depressed me a great deal & which didn't have the desired effect on my marriage. Infact, in early '04 I began to strongly suspect that she was seeing someone else. With just further depressed me & caused me to withdraw.

 

Of course, whenever I confrontedher about my suspiscions she denied them, but I didn't buy her denials.

 

We began marriage councilling, but were only a couple of sessions in when a major argument caused us to seperate & for her, my step-daughter & our three year old daughter to move out, about twenty miles away from where we'd always lived.

 

After which, I stayed behind for a couple of months until getting my own apartment in the same area as them in October of '04.

 

Which has pretty much been the status quo ever since. With us seperated & me just waiting around, still madly in love with my wife, but no progress whatsoever made toward a reconciliation. Infact, she's on her third relationship since our seperation. Fourth actually,because she started off seeing this guy Jerry just after we seperated ( actually, I strongly suspect that she was involved with him for a couple of months BEFORE we split ), then she stopped seeing him in order to have a relationship with a fellow named Bill, then it was Mike for a few months, now Jerry back around ... ). All of which has pretty much killed me to stand by & watch.

 

In the three plus years since our seperation began, I haven't so much as held another gwoman's hand or gone out for coffee with one. Although I'm desperately lonely & horny ( believe me! ), I just haven't done a thing about it. I've remained in this limbo that that I've been trapped in while Vicki just merrily goes about her life.

 

Yet she still says that doesn't want a divorce & still vaguely talks about a future together. Even though she hasn't even REALLY kissed me ( like a wife would kiss her husband ) in years ...

 

Tragic isn't it?

 

If I read this, I know that I'd probably picture some pathetic loser, totally unattractive, "weird Harold"-type of guy. But, I don't think that's me. At least I hope not!

 

Sure, I've put on like 20 lbs that I don't need while spending so much time alone, but it's nothing that a good diet & a couple of months at the gym couldn't deal with. And though, as I approach 46, my low self-esteem is telling me that I'm getting very O-L-D, I know that these days that's hardly considered senior citezen status ...

 

But, still, as much as I try to talk myself out of feeling so damned shi--y about everything, I can't break out of this funk. [/sIZE][/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif][sIZE=1]Posts: 6 | From: Buffalo, NY | Registered: Sep 2007 | IP: [COLOR=#0000ff]Logged[/COLOR] | [/sIZE][/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif][sIZE=2]michelangelo [/sIZE][/FONT]

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Member # 248

 

[/sIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif][sIZE=1][COLOR=#000000]posted September 28, 2007 10:37 AM [/COLOR][/sIZE][/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif][sIZE=2]I know I'm one to talk, but it seems clear to me that both women in your life have moved on and away from you. I'm sorry you are in such pain. I know the feeling.

 

I think you ought to give up on those two women and get on with your life. [/sIZE][/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif][sIZE=1]Posts: 1659 | From: california | Registered: Jan 2003 | IP: [COLOR=#0000ff]Logged[/COLOR] | [/sIZE][/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif][sIZE=2]Lyn [/sIZE][/FONT]

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[/sIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif][sIZE=1][COLOR=#000000]posted September 28, 2007 11:07 AM [/COLOR][/sIZE][/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif][sIZE=2]Yep, I'm with Mich. The only way out of this funk is to start with a clean slate.

Vicki has written you off. You are just a legal technicality.

Time for a divorce.

 

--------------------

~Happiness doesn't come from getting all that you want, it comes from wanting all that you've got.

~ What we do in life echoes in eternity.

~ Character is what you do when no one is watching.

[/sIZE][/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif][sIZE=1]Posts: 13763 | From: northern New Jersey | Registered: Dec 2002 | IP: [COLOR=#0000ff]Logged[/COLOR] | [/sIZE][/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif][sIZE=2]joekurtz [/sIZE][/FONT]

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[/sIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif][sIZE=1][COLOR=#000000]posted September 29, 2007 06:45 AM [/COLOR][/sIZE][/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif][sIZE=2]

Originally posted by michelangelo:

I know I'm one to talk, but it seems clear to me that both women in your life have moved on and away from you. I'm sorry you are in such pain. I know the feeling.

 

I think you ought to give up on those two women and get on with your life.[/Q

 

Oh, believe me, I gave up on Donna back in 1999. Other than when it comes to parenting our kids, arranging for visitations & such, I really don't want anything to do with her.

 

I mean, I wish her well as far as her being someone that I spent the better part of a decade of my life with & whom I produced two beautiful children with, but that's all.

 

Vicki hates her & continues to blame her for our marriage not working because of all the trouble she caused during it, but I don't harbor that same resentment. Because, frankly, I think blaming Donna is a cop out on Vicki's part.

 

I believe if she had just ignored most of what Donna did & stood united with me, it would have pretty much rendered Donna powerless. But, by allowing Donna's actions to upset her so much, Vicki actually gave her power over herself. Unfortunately, whenever I tried to explain this to her, she would somehow always twist it back around to me "siding with Donna". Which, again, couldn't be further from the truth.

 

I just tried to use diplomacy & keep things from turning into a big nasty scene every time that we had to pick up or drop off the children. Unfortunately, my attempts at diplomacy were always seen as my capitulating to Donna rather than as my desire to just keep things as peaceful as possible for the kid's sake.

 

I couldn't win. [/sIZE][/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif][sIZE=1]Posts: 6 | From: Buffalo, NY | Registered: Sep 2007 | IP: [COLOR=#0000ff]Logged[/COLOR] | [/sIZE][/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif][sIZE=2]joekurtz [/sIZE][/FONT]

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[/sIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif][sIZE=1][COLOR=#000000]posted September 29, 2007 12:28 PM [/COLOR][/sIZE][/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif][sIZE=1]quote:[/sIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif][sIZE=2]Originally posted by Lyn:

Yep, I'

m

with Mich. The only way out of this funk is to start with a clean slate.

Vicki has written you off. You are just a legal technicality.

Time for a divorce.

[/sIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif][sIZE=2]I know, I know.

 

Intellectually I know that that's where this is pretty much inevitably headed. But, three plus years on & I STILL can't totally accept it emotionally. Or even physically.

 

Even though I haven't been with her since August 13th, 2004, I still desire her incredibly. I mean, whenever I have a sexual dream at night, it's about her 99% of the time. Which is a VERY frustrating & depressing set of feelings to have to deal with ...

 

ESPECIALLY knowing that these these men that she's been involved with since our seperation have been enjoying her body & her attentions all the while. Which, I really try not to dwell on, but it's difficult to avoid being tormented by it. [/sIZE][/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif][sIZE=1]Posts: 6 | From: Buffalo, NY | Registered: Sep 2007 | IP: [COLOR=#0000ff]Logged[/COLOR] | [/sIZE][/FONT]

[joekurtz]

I apologize for that copy & paste job for turning out like it did.

 

I had originally planned on just rewriting what I'd written there over on that other forum, but I couldn't find the energy. You know?

 

I'm just going through a really rough patch with this & it's only getting tougher as the 10th & my 46th birthday get closer. I'm facing the reality that the past three years have been a colossal waste of time for me & that, while she may not want a divorce for whatever reasons, it certainly doesn't appear as if she's ever going to want me back in any real capasity as her husband.

 

Which is a tough pill to swallow.

[Je Ne Regrette Rien]

I apologize for that copy & paste job for turning out like it did.

 

I had originally planned on just rewriting what I'd written there over on that other forum, but I couldn't find the energy. You know?

 

I'm just going through a really rough patch with this & it's only getting tougher as the 10th & my 46th birthday get closer. I'm facing the reality that the past three years have been a colossal waste of time for me & that, while she may not want a divorce for whatever reasons, it certainly doesn't appear as if she's ever going to want me back in any real capasity as her husband.

 

Which is a tough pill to swallow.

 

Three years is a very long time to wait around and watch her have other relationships. Has she given you a definite reason as to why she doesn't want a divorce? Is there financial implications or other implications for it?

 

And no...I dont think you're a Harold time person lol

[reboot]

After 4 affairs while still married I don't think whether she wants a divorce or not is the issue. You need to man up and move on. JMO.

[Ladyjane14]

Based on your post... it looks like "Vicki" is a card-carrying DRAMA QUEEN. Your ex, "Donna", wasn't the problem in your marriage. She was the GLUE holding it together, providing enough DRAMA to keep "Vicki" in the game.

 

You said earlier in reference to "Donna"... "She's cause scenes & constantly question are parenting choices". I'm assuming that you meant she had a problem with "Vicki" trying to exert parental authority over her children. Guess what?... the majority of mothers would. "Vicki" was NOT their parent. No mother worth her salt would stand by and allow another woman to usurp her place in her children's lives.

 

But.... that was then and this is now. You're carrying a torch for a drama junkie who's apparently set up something of a revolving door of boyfriends in close proximity to your youngest daughter. I suspect based on what you've said that "Vicki" has never been faithful to you for longer than a year or two during your entire history together. You married in 2001 and found secret correspondence from an OM by 2002.

 

So, I don't know what the hold-up is as far as moving on with your life is concerned. You really didn't have anything of merit with "Vicki" to begin with.

 

You've mentioned that your childhood was marred by your parents alcoholism and that you are a conflict avoider. If I had to hazard a guess, I'd say you're still dealing with some guilt over the destruction of your first two children's home deal too.

 

Perhaps the thing to do at this point is to start taking charge of your life and your issues. Get into some counseling and face these things head-on. Meantime, why not see an attorney and extricate yourself from this bad marriage? Right now, you're living on the back-burner just in case Miss Thing changes her mind and there's just no way you can build positive self-esteem in that dynamic.

 

You have three children to provide for, not just their financial needs, but their emotional ones as well. Your youngest would seem to be at particular need of whatever stability you can provide.

That certainly ought to be enough impetus to get you off your duff and get yourself into a healthy frame of mind.

[joekurtz]

Based on your post... it looks like "Vicki" is a card-carrying DRAMA QUEEN. Your ex, "Donna", wasn't the problem in your marriage. She was the GLUE holding it together, providing enough DRAMA to keep "Vicki" in the game.

 

You said earlier in reference to "Donna"... "She's cause scenes & constantly question are parenting choices". I'm assuming that you meant she had a problem with "Vicki" trying to exert parental authority over her children. Guess what?... the majority of mothers would. "Vicki" was NOT their parent. No mother worth her salt would stand by and allow another woman to usurp her place in her children's lives.

 

But.... that was then and this is now. You're carrying a torch for a drama junkie who's apparently set up something of a revolving door of boyfriends in close proximity to your youngest daughter. I suspect based on what you've said that "Vicki" has never been faithful to you for longer than a year or two during your entire history together. You married in 2001 and found secret correspondence from an OM by 2002.

 

So, I don't know what the hold-up is as far as moving on with your life is concerned. You really didn't have anything of merit with "Vicki" to begin with.

 

You've mentioned that your childhood was marred by your parents alcoholism and that you are a conflict avoider. If I had to hazard a guess, I'd say you're still dealing with some guilt over the destruction of your first two children's home deal too.

 

Perhaps the thing to do at this point is to start taking charge of your life and your issues. Get into some counseling and face these things head-on. Meantime, why not see an attorney and extricate yourself from this bad marriage? Right now, you're living on the back-burner just in case Miss Thing changes her mind and there's just no way you can build positive self-esteem in that dynamic.

 

You have three children to provide for, not just their financial needs, but their emotional ones as well. Your youngest would seem to be at particular need of whatever stability you can provide.

That certainly ought to be enough impetus to get you off your duff and get yourself into a healthy frame of mind.[/qu

 

 

How dare you speak to me in such a manner!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Honestly, I think that's just the sort of thing that I need to hear.

Many thanks for taking the time to work your way through reading that mess of mine & for spending more of it by replying.

 

And you're absolutely right about the dynamic between Vicki & Donna. Every issue that Donna had with Vicki was about the way that she dealt with my two oldest children. She wanted wanted me to be the one to discipline them & to be the one to deal with her when it came to parenting decisions. Which is the way that I preferred it also. But, Vicki always insisted that was disrespectful to her. She wanted to be right there, by my side whenever I would have to deal with Donna.

 

Which would ,in turn, piss Donna off & things would tend to either be tension filled throughout or they'd just end up ugly. But, no matter how much I tried to reason with Vicki & tell her that we could avoid all that by simply limiting the contact between her & Donna down to nil, she wouldn't hear of it. She said that by doing that, I was the one being abusive to her by not allowing her to come out onto her own front porch when it was time for Donna to drop off or pick up the children.

 

But honestly, it wasn't like that. I just didn't see the need to have to go through all that high tension, especially the kids. Not when it could be avoided so simply.

 

And it was no different when we went over to Donna's place to pick up or drop off. Then Vicki would insist on going with me, which wasn't a problem with me as long as she just allowed me to be the one to deal with Donna. That's all I asked.

 

But, Vicki saw that as me catering to Donna's feelings more than her's & she'd make sure that that's how it seemed to her family, her friends & our neighbors too. Including the one that she was unfaithful to me with. Or, as she describes it, had her "flirtation" with.

 

I was always the "bad guy".

 

And, yeah. I would often get loud with her whenever these arguments between us would erupt, because I was under a lot of pressure. Donna wanted things her way & would yank me into family court every damned time that she got pissed enough to want to. And Vicki wanted things HER way & would make me feel like less than a man for not "standing up to" Donna as often or in the exact way that she thought I should. And, I was caught smack dab in the middle.

 

My blood pressure was sky high, I was depressed. Life wasn't supposed to be like this. I was with the love of my life, the woman that I absolutely adored in Vicki, we had a beautiful baby, plus three others with my two & her's from a previous marriage. Why did we have to have all this unnecessary drama? To be cliche for a moment, why couldn't we all just get along?

 

And yes, we did try mediation, but ( obviously ) it didn't work. Both Donna & Vicki seemed to hear only what they wanted to hear, which somehow turned out to be two totally different things than what I heard & eventually Donna bailed on her sessions with the mediator, so ...

[marlena]

Joe,

 

You are definitely in the midst of a major crisis if not crisises in your life. Trust me I know how it feels to be getting on in years (esp. after the death of a parent). You take appraisal of your life and assess the choices that you have made that have inevitably placed you in the emotional / mental state you are in at the moment. and it isn't always nice. I too am going through something similar but admittedly not to the extremity that you are dealing with.

 

First of all, I want to congratulate you for doing what you thought was right at the time. Leaving your family to follow your heart, regardless of today's outcome, must have been one of the hardest things you had to do in your life. It was the honest thing to do....better than carrying an affair behind your wife's back. I don't know if it was the wisest but it was definitely the most honest thing to do.

 

I can tell you have great love for children. This I think is the answer to your problems. You must refocus and channel all your energy to those children. Make them your top priority and they will sustain you ALWAYS through even the darkest turmoil in your life.

 

I agree with you that Donna should have kept a distance where your wife and children were concerned. She should have realized that you and your ex wife were the children's parents and she should have stepped aside to let the teo of you deal with them as parents only can. I also understand your first's wife's concern regarding her children and how they were being influenced under Donna's care.

 

I do not think your first wife should have made your life with your new partner a living hell. As an adult, she should have accepted the divorce and concerned herself about her children above all else. One thing that wasn't clear to me. How did Donna treat your children? And how did they feel about her? This is important.

 

As fro Donna herself, I agree, with one poster that she is the Queens of Queens when it comes to Drama. There is no excuse for her behaviour. She is either in the marriage or she isn't. When you had to make the choice, you did, however high the price was. She could at least afford you the same respect. There is no in-between when it comes to marriage and parenting.

 

You have given her many chances which she hasn't deserved. Perhaps it is time to step back and look at your life and your children's lives. What you see if you have the strength to disassociate from her for a time might indeed surprise you.

 

Always here for you.

[joekurtz]

Marlena,

Thanks so much for taking the time out for your thoughtful reply.

 

Just have to clear up a few things that I'm sure are my fault for butchering this thread with my ham-fisted attempts at copying & pasting something I'd written while on another site & then editing my last post. Neither of which turned out so well, but ...

 

Anyhow, Donna is actually my ex. We lived together for eight years & produced two wonderful children ( Ashley Lyn who's now 15 & Nigel Benn who's 8 ), but we were never married.

 

Vicki's my ( estranged ) wife. And the mother of my youngest, Autumn Myst who's 6 & there's also her eldest, my step-daughter Jessica who's 17. which makes four kids all together. This is my first marriage. Vicki's third.

 

As for how she treated Ashley & Nigel, for most part great. They both called her "mom' by their own choice infact.

[marlena]

As for how she treated Ashley & Nigel, for most part great. They both called her "mom' by their own choice infact.

 

This is good news!!! Sorry I got the names mixed up but yes, your post was a bit of a muddle to wade through!

 

I know all about step children and half brothers and sisters! My ex - husband has three childen with two other wives and one with me. I have been a stepmother on and off to all three of his other children. Anyway, I won't go into the details as you will probably get more confused than I was originally! Just wanted to you to know that I have had experience on both side of the fence.

 

Suffice it to say, that today, my X husband, now a widow as of two years ago, and I are good friends and all four kids have a good relationship. In fact, my X, his son and I are going to Spain to spend Christmas with our daughter! Talk about extended families?

 

Anyway, all his kids I step - parented (just coined a new word, I suppose) are on great terms though it hasn't been always easy.

 

One thing I respected always is the mother of those other childen. I kept distances where I knew I should. I knew where to draw the lines. I in no way treid to undermine their mother's authority.

 

Enough about me!!! I just mention it so that you may know that there are a lot of people in yr situation!

 

The problem with you is your now estranged wife and what you can/must do to deal with the problem at hand. To me it is obvious that you still are very much in love with her.

 

What you need to do is ask yourself WHY???

[marlena]

P.S.

 

I love your children's names!!!

[joekurtz]

P.S.

 

I love your children's names!!!

 

Thank you.

[joekurtz]

 

This is good news!!! Sorry I got the names mixed up but yes, your post was a bit of a muddle to wade through!

 

I know all about step children and half brothers and sisters! My ex - husband has three childen with two other wives and one with me. I have been a stepmother on and off to all three of his other children. Anyway, I won't go into the details as you will probably get more confused than I was originally! Just wanted to you to know that I have had experience on both side of the fence.

 

Suffice it to say, that today, my X husband, now a widow as of two years ago, and I are good friends and all four kids have a good relationship. In fact, my X, his son and I are going to Spain to spend Christmas with our daughter! Talk about extended families?

 

Anyway, all his kids I step - parented (just coined a new word, I suppose) are on great terms though it hasn't been always easy.

 

One thing I respected always is the mother of those other childen. I kept distances where I knew I should. I knew where to draw the lines. I in no way treid to undermine their mother's authority.

 

Enough about me!!! I just mention it so that you may know that there are a lot of people in yr situation!

 

The problem with you is your now estranged wife and what you can/must do to deal with the problem at hand. To me it is obvious that you still are very much in love with her.

 

What you need to do is ask yourself WHY???

 

 

I honestly wish I knew the answer to that question, in light of everything I've been through with her.

 

99.9% of other men would have divorced her by now, of that I'm certain. And believe me, I don't hold any religeous convictions or beliefs that prevent me from seeking a permanent legal end to our marriage.

 

And yet, despite it all, the infidelities, the lack of any marital relations between us for three long years now ... I still love her.

 

Sometimes I really, really hate her for all the things she does & doesn't do, but I still love her. With no solid answer as to why either.

 

Pretty sad, huh?

[reboot]

Sometimes I really, really hate her for all the things she does & doesn't do, but I still love her. With no solid answer as to why either.

 

Pretty sad, huh?

Sad? I suppose. I know when you really love someone, it's really hard just to turn that off. Been there, still there. So don't beat yourself up about that.

 

But at some point you have to man up and think about your kids. If you let this go on, it's going to break you down to nothing. Then who is going to take care of them? Her? Please....

[Ladyjane14]

Every issue that Donna had with Vicki was about the way that she dealt with my two oldest children. She wanted wanted me to be the one to discipline them & to be the one to deal with her when it came to parenting decisions. Which is the way that I preferred it also. But, Vicki always insisted that was disrespectful to her. She wanted to be right there, by my side whenever I would have to deal with Donna.

 

Which would ,in turn, piss Donna off & things would tend to either be tension filled throughout or they'd just end up ugly. But, no matter how much I tried to reason with Vicki & tell her that we could avoid all that by simply limiting the contact between her & Donna down to nil, she wouldn't hear of it. She said that by doing that, I was the one being abusive to her by not allowing her to come out onto her own front porch when it was time for Donna to drop off or pick up the children.

 

But honestly, it wasn't like that. I just didn't see the need to have to go through all that high tension, especially the kids. Not when it could be avoided so simply.

 

And it was no different when we went over to Donna's place to pick up or drop off. Then Vicki would insist on going with me, which wasn't a problem with me as long as she just allowed me to be the one to deal with Donna. That's all I asked.

 

But, Vicki saw that as me catering to Donna's feelings more than her's & she'd make sure that that's how it seemed to her family, her friends & our neighbors too. Including the one that she was unfaithful to me with. Or, as she describes it, had her "flirtation" with.

 

I was always the "bad guy".

 

And, yeah. I would often get loud with her whenever these arguments between us would erupt, because I was under a lot of pressure. Donna wanted things her way & would yank me into family court every damned time that she got pissed enough to want to. And Vicki wanted things HER way & would make me feel like less than a man for not "standing up to" Donna as often or in the exact way that she thought I should. And, I was caught smack dab in the middle.

 

My blood pressure was sky high, I was depressed. Life wasn't supposed to be like this. I was with the love of my life, the woman that I absolutely adored in Vicki, we had a beautiful baby, plus three others with my two & her's from a previous marriage. Why did we have to have all this unnecessary drama? To be cliche for a moment, why couldn't we all just get along?

 

And yes, we did try mediation, but ( obviously ) it didn't work. Both Donna & Vicki seemed to hear only what they wanted to hear, which somehow turned out to be two totally different things than what I heard & eventually Donna bailed on her sessions with the mediator, so ...

 

If you go back and read through your post again... I think you're going to find that your wishes were ALWAYS ignored by "Vicki". At this point in your relationship, it wasn't incumbent upon "Donna" to accommodate you... but it most certainly WAS "Vicki's" job to support and prioritize the needs of her husband. Instead, she whipped up drama at every turn, always in an effort to have the last word.

 

Meanwhile, it was your children who paid the price.. because their parents were unable to co-parent effectively with this third wheel constantly butting in.

If you set your emotions aside for a minute and really LOOK at the actions of these two women, I think you'll see that "Vicki's" behavior was driven by ego... and not by the best interests of the people around her.

 

Frankly, there aren't many mothers who would tolerate the interference of another woman within the confines of the parenting relationship. I know I most certainly wouldn't. And yet, there are oodles of blended families these days where everybody gets along for the most part with only the occasional glitch.

 

When you ask yourself why some get along and others don't, invariably you'll find that the ones who do have a common goal, the same as any nuclear family... which is providing contentment for family members and a healthy environment for raising the children. The goal for the children of course is that they are well-supported both emotionally and financially.

 

Now, when you read back through your previous comments above.. I think you'll see that those were indeed YOUR goals. In order for your children to be "well-supported both emotionally and financially", you needed a functional co-parenting relationship with your ex. And this was intolerable to "Vicki" for her own personal reasons, having nothing whatsoever to do with prioritizing the needs of these children or the needs of her husband. If you ask me, based on your posts... "Vicki" feeds on drama, to the detriment of the people around her, who are looking for contentment.

 

Sometimes I really, really hate her for all the things she does & doesn't do, but I still love her. With no solid answer as to why either.

 

This is why I think counseling will do you a world of good. After all this woman has put you through, there's no valid reason for you to continue with these "love" emotions. I'm not a professional, but I think these feelings are more about you than they are about "Vicki".

 

The woman cheated on you at every turn and she ruined your family dynamic. There's nothing there that most people would find 'lovable'.

And yet, here you are three years later, still fixated on her romantically.

 

Sometimes, it's easier to focus our feelings on one thing when it's really something else altogether that's bothering us. Often, this fixation is targeted upon unrequited love. It's easier to focus and obsess on a problem you can see rather than one which feels vague, undefined, or insurmountable.

 

A good therapist can help you to identify the underlying issues which are keeping you from shaking off this crappy relationship. S/he can help you find out why avoiding conflict is more important to you than achieving your goals, as well as provide you with tools to effectively change that dynamic.

 

If I had to hazard an unprofessional guess, I'd say that by facing the real "Vicki" rather than the one you made her out to be, by letting her go... you'd have to admit that the destruction of your previous family dynamic with "Donna" was all for nothing. By holding on to "Vicki", you're holding on your justification for leaving your first family.

 

If that's the case, I hope you can see that it's counterproductive to continue in this vein. It doesn't serve your current or future needs, nor those of your children. A healthy, happy father who prioritizes their emotional and security needs is what will benefit them most. Not a father who's drawn on his hair shirt over the mistakes of his past and continues to pour his emotional energy into a faulty vessel.

 

As an Adult Child of Alcoholics, you've stepped into some very common potholes. A good counselor can help you find ways to defeat that dynamic so you can move into the future with more confidence.

 

Most health insurance companies are offering benefits for counseling services these days. Why not give yours a call? Certainly, you have nothing to lose.

[CaliGuy]

Joe you are getting excellent advice. I think the major problem right now is you are not seeking a divorce and your wife isn't. You want closure, correct? MAKE IT.

 

File for divorce. Your wife has basically abandoned you. You need to put this marriage at an end before you'll be able to truly move on (legally and emotionally). You have kids that depend on you and you do need to be strong for them.

 

Your life will get better when you decide to take control and not wait around for something to happen that, for all intents and purposes, never will.

[joekurtz]

Ladyjane & CaliGuy, thanks. And yeah, I DO definitely appreciate your sort of direct, no BS advise. Sure, it can be a wee bit bracing, but I can take it.

 

I think ...

 

 

No, I can. Really. Unlike what you may have pictured whilst reading this thread, I'm not a TOTAL milktoast.

 

At least not physically anyhow. Believe it or not, I used to fight for a living as a boxer. Plus I've got a black belt in Hawaiin Kempo & was a kickboxing instructor at one time. I guess, I was driven by what I went through as a kid to be a strong, able protector. Or something like that.

 

Even though, unlike many poor kids who grew up in similar circumstances, I was never physically abused myself. Actually though, I would've rather taken the beatings myself rather than having been so impotent at being able to protect my Mom.

 

Not that these alcohol fueled horrors were totally onesided however. I also went through the duel experiences of being there when my mother stabbed my father one night & then shot him in the leg with a .22 rifle two years later. So, as you can see, I had an "interesting" childhood.

 

And while my two older sisters took the complete opposite approach of being able to sleep through it all somehow, I was pretty much always there in the midst of it. Sorry for going so far off the subject at hand, but as Ladyjane has so wisely reminded me, I know that what I endured back then somehow resonates & manifests itself in where my life is today.

[joekurtz]

I was all set to write an update, but now that I'm here sitting in front of a blank screen, I've realized that I just don't have anything to say at the moment. Maybe later. Sorry ...