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Old 12th November 2017, 5:55 AM   #1
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Need support on my situation.

Hi everyone, I just want some advice on my confusing situation. I met this girl around a year ago. The first 3 months or so we barley talked and after that we started talking more and more. About another 3 months later we talked every day during this period and had decided we both was the ones we wanted to spend the rest of ourselves with. So, at this point we got engaged (I know youíre thinking engaged after 6 months!?, well we both come from religious backgrounds and itís something we both wanted). A little background on her is that she is actually married by law but separated from her husband for over a year now. He tries to call her now and then, but she ignores him and hasn't spoken to him at all. He cheated on her, and after giving him many chances she left. She is extremely argumentative and doesn't like to accept when she's wrong and always puts the blame on me. Her ego is above me in a sense. For example, if we argue about something & she knows that logically I'm right, she will refuse to accept it, for her saying sorry is a no no, it seems like her ego would get tarnished and that really frustrates me. I can't even bring up topics that are bothering me because she would get annoyed and she just doesnít' want to fix issues thatís upsetting me. It takes so much energy just to even get through to her & even then she knows Iím upset but doesnít comfort me. I know she cares about me, but I donít know why she canít show emotional affection and make me feel loved, I feel like itís because of what happened between her and her husband. I don't know what the root cause of her issues are but she does have some issues. For example, she tries to change me so much and criticizes anything she doesn't like about me. She even said to me that if I don't cut my hair the way she always wanted her husband to cut his hair, then she will not marry me. We've been arguing about this for months and I finally got her to consider letting it go because what sheís doing is selfish, she said she needs time to think if she can accept me not cutting my hair the way she wants as it's always been her dream for her husband to do this for her (I know this sounds dumb, but itís how it is with her). She asked to continue our relationship during this time, while she tries to convince her mind to let it go. She said if she cannot accept it after a few months, then she said we should leave each other. I know itís stupid but I accepted because I love her so much.

Now here comes to confusing part. She wasnít always like this, when we first got engaged she was crazy about me. She was very clingy and got very jealous quickly. Now that Iíve fallen in love with her, her affection seems to have decreased. The more love and affection I show, the more she pulls back. She says she still loves me the same but Iím not so sure. How can someone that was so crazy about me a few months ago, now seem to not care if I leave


Itís been about 5 days since she requested time to consider the whole hair situation. Yesterday my mum made a snark comment about her telling me to leave her and that sheís not a good person. She heard this and broke up with me. I pleaded with her all night saying, why are you leaving me for something my mother said. I made my mum apologies to her and still she says she cannot accept it, after a few more hours of pleading she said she needs time to see if she can accept me now after what my mum said to her. However, she said if I drop all contact with my family then she will marry me without any issues. I refused so she said not to contact her anymore, she will contact me if wants me back.

I just want to know, is she looking for a way out to get rid of me? The same person that would get upset a few months back if I didnít call her on time, is now telling me not to call her? Does she still love me, or did she ever love me? Was she playing mind games on purpose or is that how she just is? From my point of view, I love her so much that no matter what I donít want to be away from her. But if you love someone would you ask for time away from them? My heart is breaking because I put so much effort into making her feel happy and loved. I begged her to stay but she said why am I forcing her?. When she said this, I backed of.
I know she sounds crazy, but I know her well and I know she cares about me in her own way, sure she has huge ego issues, but I think that's due to the way she was brought up in an environment were being emotionally weak was bad. I love her so much, but I donít know why sheís hurting me so badly. Do you think she will ever contact me again?
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Old 12th November 2017, 9:33 AM   #2
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For your sake I hope she does not contact you again. Your mother is right. She is not a good person. Be happy that you dodged a bullet.
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Old 12th November 2017, 11:12 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by SolidN6 View Post
She said she needs time to think if she can accept me not cutting my hair the way she wants as it's always been her dream for her husband to do this for her.... I know this sounds dumb
No, Solid, it doesn't sound "dumb" at all. Rather, it sounds extremely immature. You're describing behavior so childlike that this young woman should be shopping for a Ken doll -- not looking for a husband.

Quote:
She does have some issues.... I know she sounds crazy.
Perhaps so. But you are not describing "crazy." Instead, the behaviors you describe -- i.e., insecurity, verbal abuse, controlling demands, temper tantrums, black-white thinking, always being "The Victim," and rapid flips between Jekyll (loving you) and Hyde (devaluing you) -- are some of the classic warning signs for BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder). Importantly, I'm not suggesting that your exGF exhibits full-blown BPD (only a professional can determine that). Rather, I suggesting she might be exhibiting moderate to strong traits of BPD. To a lesser extent, you're also describing narcissistic warning signs.

Quote:
Now here comes to confusing part.... The more love and affection I show, the more she pulls back.... How can someone that was so crazy about me a few months ago, now seem to not care if I leave?
A cycle of push-you-away (by creating a fight over nothing) and pull-you-back (by love bombing) is one of the hallmarks of BPD behavior. And, to a lesser extent, it also is characteristic of narcissistic behavior.

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She is extremely argumentative and doesn't like to accept when she's wrong and always puts the blame on me.... She asked to continue our relationship.
The #2 best-selling BPD book is titled, I Hate You, Don't Leave Me! BPDers have a strong need to validate their false self image of being "The Victim" by blaming every mistake and unhappiness on their partner. They nonetheless are reluctant to leave the partner because this "validation" of their false self image is so important to them.

During the courtship period, a BPDer will receive that validation from her view of you as the rescuer who has arrived to save her from unhappiness. Because you are "The Rescuer," the implication is that she must be "The Victim" you are so intent on rescuing.

Following the courtship period -- when her infatuation no longer holds her two fears at bay -- a BPDer will start perceiving of you as "The Perpetrator,"
i.e., the cause of her every misfortune. Regardless of whether you are "The Rescuer" (her perception when splitting you white) or "The Perpetrator" (her perception when splitting you black), you are satisfying her deep need for validation of being "The Victim."

Quote:
My mum made a snark comment about her telling me to leave her.
Listen to your mum. But, if you are not yet ready to do so, I would suggest you take a quick look at my list of 18 BPD Warning Signs to see if most sound very familiar. If so, I would suggest you also read my more detailed description of them at my posts in Rebel's Thread. And Sal provides a concise and insightful account of what it's like to live with a BPDer for 23 years in his 3/16 post. If those descriptions ring many bells and raise questions, I would be glad to discuss them with you.

Of course, learning to spot these warning signs will not enable you to diagnose your GF's issues. Although strong BPD symptoms are easy to spot, only a professional can determine whether they are so severe as to constitute full-blown BPD. Yet, like learning warning signs for a stroke or heart attack, learning those for BPD may help you avoid a very painful situation -- e.g., avoid remaining in a toxic R/S and avoid running into the arms of another woman who is just like her. Take care, Solid.
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Old 9th December 2017, 8:43 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by d0nnivain View Post
For your sake I hope she does not contact you again. Your mother is right. She is not a good person. Be happy that you dodged a bullet.
I know sheís not a good person, but I love her. When sheís not around I feel lost and alone and need the companionship she gives.

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Originally Posted by Downtown View Post
No, Solid, it doesn't sound "dumb" at all. Rather, it sounds extremely immature. You're describing behavior so childlike that this young woman should be shopping for a Ken doll -- not looking for a husband.

Perhaps so. But you are not describing "crazy." Instead, the behaviors you describe -- i.e., insecurity, verbal abuse, controlling demands, temper tantrums, black-white thinking, always being "The Victim," and rapid flips between Jekyll (loving you) and Hyde (devaluing you) -- are some of the classic warning signs for BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder). Importantly, I'm not suggesting that your exGF exhibits full-blown BPD (only a professional can determine that). Rather, I suggesting she might be exhibiting moderate to strong traits of BPD. To a lesser extent, you're also describing narcissistic warning signs.

A cycle of push-you-away (by creating a fight over nothing) and pull-you-back (by love bombing) is one of the hallmarks of BPD behavior. And, to a lesser extent, it also is characteristic of narcissistic behavior.

The #2 best-selling BPD book is titled, I Hate You, Don't Leave Me! BPDers have a strong need to validate their false self image of being "The Victim" by blaming every mistake and unhappiness on their partner. They nonetheless are reluctant to leave the partner because this "validation" of their false self image is so important to them.

During the courtship period, a BPDer will receive that validation from her view of you as the rescuer who has arrived to save her from unhappiness. Because you are "The Rescuer," the implication is that she must be "The Victim" you are so intent on rescuing.

Following the courtship period -- when her infatuation no longer holds her two fears at bay -- a BPDer will start perceiving of you as "The Perpetrator,"
i.e., the cause of her every misfortune. Regardless of whether you are "The Rescuer" (her perception when splitting you white) or "The Perpetrator" (her perception when splitting you black), you are satisfying her deep need for validation of being "The Victim."

Listen to your mum. But, if you are not yet ready to do so, I would suggest you take a quick look at my list of 18 BPD Warning Signs to see if most sound very familiar. If so, I would suggest you also read my more detailed description of them at my posts in Rebel's Thread. And Sal provides a concise and insightful account of what it's like to live with a BPDer for 23 years in his 3/16 post. If those descriptions ring many bells and raise questions, I would be glad to discuss them with you.

Of course, learning to spot these warning signs will not enable you to diagnose your GF's issues. Although strong BPD symptoms are easy to spot, only a professional can determine whether they are so severe as to constitute full-blown BPD. Yet, like learning warning signs for a stroke or heart attack, learning those for BPD may help you avoid a very painful situation -- e.g., avoid remaining in a toxic R/S and avoid running into the arms of another woman who is just like her. Take care, Solid.
I know sheís extremely immature and itís extremely frustrating at times. She just wants her way all the time. And I think your right she probably does have BPD now that I think about it. Iím not sure she is a narcissist, but it feels like when things are going her way then she is fine with me. But if disagree with something then her mood gets off and sheís back to being cold and affection less with me. Does she do this on purpose? Or is that the kind of personality she has? As in do you think she knows her actions are hurting me or is this how she just naturally reacts? The thing is, itís tiny things that cause such huge arguments, like her not liking the way I cut my hair, or me not dressing the way she wants.

So, following up on my first post, I begged her to come back again and she did after a lot of convincing. But unfortunately, it didnít last long, I feel she only came back because she felt sorry for me. In our whole relationship sheís broken up with me about 5 times, but she never meant it and we always got back together. She did this all the time knowing how much I hated it and how much it hurt me. She would just cut the phone line and wouldnít pick up and it frustrated me and upset me so much, but she did it anyway, this happened throughout the whole relationship. Also, yes she was insecure when we first started talking in the honeymoon phase, but in the last 2 months she seemed to find new confidence and didnít seem to care if I was there. It would sometimes feel like she was trying to push me away on purpose. I feel that she saw that she canít control me and so started not liking me as much as because I wasnít moulding into the person she wants me to be. Donít get me wrong I love her and want her to be happy and am prepared / have made compromises. But sheís telling me to change a big part of me which is my identity, the way I look. I donít feel comfortable with the way she wants me to cut my hair or dress. Itís just not me, and she hates this. Whenever we argued and I put my point across she would hate it cause Iím disagreeing with her.

She broke up with me again around 6 days ago. But this time it is for real. I was no angel leading up to the break up. Because of the way she was acting above and pulling away. I become really insecure, jealous and clingy. Her pulling away hurt me so Iíd call her more frequently, ask her to meet me more, asked whoíd she been talking to, why she never answered my call, why sheís calling less now etc. I even started telling her to stop speaking to some of her guy friends because I become so insecure. I know this was wrong of me but I said sorry and stopped doing all this a week before the breakup. I donít know if the above makes me a bad person because my intention was not to hurt or control her. I was just scared I was losing her and wasnít sure how to keep her. Since the last 6 days she broke up with me. I begged and cried to her to come back. But she has refused, she said Iíd become controlling and didnít trust her. I told her that I was sorry but you made me feel insecure by pulling away and I didnít want to lose you. But she would not listen. The begging and pleading lead to her threating to change her number and telling me to get out her life. She said she wants to forget me and have nothing to do with. I messed up by becoming to needy and now Iíve lost her. I will not contact her anymore, but do you think she will contact me back again ever? Having said all that, she could have blocked me on her phone and Whatsapp but she didnít. Iíve even said to her many times, please just block me so I donít feel compelled to contact you, but she never does. So, I think she might contact me again. I donít know whatís wrong with me, but I know sheís not good for me, but I love her and I'm scared and hurt sheís not in my life. My life feels empty and lonely without her.
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Old 9th December 2017, 9:10 PM   #5
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Really think twice if u need her

Hi SolidN6,

As a female (and subconsciously quite a drama queen too), here's my take on her:

It sounds like she likes to be the hunter and when you're showing my affection/attention, she loses interest. For such person, u should not be texting her (desperately) and crying and begging her to come back to u. Go on NC, and wait for her to initiate conversation with u.

There's two possibility ->

1. Her hunter personality will start again and she'll start putting in more effort to get your attention.

2. She doesn't care and that's likely because there's someone else that she's trying/currently dating already and all the drama is to break up with u so that she can start something with that person. OR she simply thinks that she can find someone better than u and hence, has emotionally checked out of this rs.

It sounds like she's immature, terrible and a drama queen. Putting your current emotional pain aside and let's talk logic. If she comes back to you via your begging with no intention to improve herself for this relationship (cause that seems like what's been happening again and again), what makes u think that the next argument/break up is not going to happen?

Are u simply begging and wanting this relationship back for the temporary solution of stopping the current heartbreak? You know the feeling u have now will repeat itself for another 10 times if neither of u can improve yourself for each other. If i'm her, I'll always be on a look out for someone better to jump over since there's so many unhappiness in this relationship.
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Old 9th December 2017, 10:25 PM   #6
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Quote:
She probably does have BPD now that I think about it.
Solid, BPD and NPD (Narcissistic PD) are not something -- like chickenpox -- that a person either "has" or "doesn't have." Instead, they are spectrum disorders, which means every adult on the planet occasionally exhibits all BPD and NPD traits to some degree (albeit at a low level if the person is healthy). At issue, then, is not whether your GF exhibits BPD and NPD traits. Of course she does. We all do.

Rather, at issue is whether she exhibits those traits at a strong and persistent level (i.e., is on the upper third of the BPD and NPD spectrums). Not having met her, I cannot answer that question. I nonetheless believe you can spot any strong BPD or NPD warning signs that are present if you take a little time to learn which behaviors are on the list. They are easy to spot because there is nothing subtle about behaviors such as always being "The Victim," verbal abuse, lack of empathy, feeling entitled, and temper tantrums.

Quote:
Do you think she knows her actions are hurting me or is this how she just naturally reacts?
If you're seeing very strong and persistent narcissistic traits, she likely is deliberately saying things to hurt you and elevate herself (in her mind) above you. On the other hand, if you're seeing only strong BPD symptoms, she very likely is NOT trying to deliberately hurt you. Instead, one of her two fears has been triggered and she is trying to defend and protect herself. BPDers usually believe most of the outrageous allegations coming out of their mouths. Narcissists do not.

Quote:
I’m not sure she is a narcissist, but it feels like when things are going her way then she is fine with me.
The primary difference between NPD and BPD behaviors is that a full-blown narcissist is incapable of loving you and always lacks affective empathy (i.e., cannot feel what it is that you're feeling).

In contrast, a BPDer is capable of loving you but is so immature that she will love you in the limited way that a young child is able to love (i.e., she will split you black and white, sometimes being in touch with her love and at other times not). As to affective empathy, a BPDer typically has it while she's splitting you white but has none of it when splitting you black.

Significantly, BOTH BPDers and narcissists will insist that you change your behavior and stop being yourself. But they do it for different reasons. So, if I had to guess, I'd say that you now seem to be describing symptoms closer to NPD.

I say this because, when a BPDer is verbally abusive and controlling, it occurs because you've triggered her fear of abandonment or engulfment. Hence, when she is very controlling, she will insist on changes like dropping all female friends, looking at other women for a half second instead of a full second, devoting your time to her whenever she wants company, and proving your love over and over again.

A narcissistic woman will be just as controlling. However, her focus is on validating her false self image of being special and superior. She therefore will insist on your agreeing with everything she says -- and insisting on cosmetic changes (e.g., your clothing and haircut) and your behaving in a way that raises her status in the eyes of other people.

This is not to say, however, that having strong NPD symptoms rules out BPD. On the contrary, many narcissists also exhibit strong BPD symptoms. A recent study found that, for women having full-blown narcissism, 41% of them also exhibited full-blown BPD. See Table 3 at 2008 Study in JCP.

Did most of the 18 BPD Warning Signs sound very familiar to you? If so, and if they raised questions you would like to discuss, it would be helpful if you would tell us which of those signs are very strong and which are very weak.
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Old 10th December 2017, 4:06 AM   #7
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Pleading with a female.. when will guys realise that this will NEVER work?
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Old 11th December 2017, 7:26 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by ennui View Post
Hi SolidN6,

As a female (and subconsciously quite a drama queen too), here's my take on her:

It sounds like she likes to be the hunter and when you're showing my affection/attention, she loses interest. For such person, u should not be texting her (desperately) and crying and begging her to come back to u. Go on NC, and wait for her to initiate conversation with u.

There's two possibility ->

1. Her hunter personality will start again and she'll start putting in more effort to get your attention.

2. She doesn't care and that's likely because there's someone else that she's trying/currently dating already and all the drama is to break up with u so that she can start something with that person. OR she simply thinks that she can find someone better than u and hence, has emotionally checked out of this rs.

It sounds like she's immature, terrible and a drama queen. Putting your current emotional pain aside and let's talk logic. If she comes back to you via your begging with no intention to improve herself for this relationship (cause that seems like what's been happening again and again), what makes u think that the next argument/break up is not going to happen?

Are u simply begging and wanting this relationship back for the temporary solution of stopping the current heartbreak? You know the feeling u have now will repeat itself for another 10 times if neither of u can improve yourself for each other. If i'm her, I'll always be on a look out for someone better to jump over since there's so many unhappiness in this relationship.
It’s not like that. I do believe she loved me because of the things she’s done for me. It’s just in the honeymoon phase she sort of dismissed my short comings. After that stage she saw that I’m not becoming who she wants me to be. Emotionally I was there for her, but I refused to change my self physically, which started causing a lot of arguments and were both extremely stubborn and so neither of us gave in. That’s when she started to lose interest.

She is no hunter, after her ex and her broke up, she said she was done with guys for good. It took me a long time to even get her interested in me. I highly doubt she will ever try contact me again. She made it clear she was done with me and wants to forget me and that she wants to be alone and away from drama caused by relationships.

Yes she is immature & has really bad anger issues and I know she’s bad for me, but I’m still happy when I’m with her. Because when were not fighting we get a long so well and the friendship is great. In a way yeah, I’m just trying to fix my current broken heartbreak, but at the same time hoping she will also change and become more mature.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Downtown View Post
Solid, BPD and NPD (Narcissistic PD) are not something -- like chickenpox -- that a person either "has" or "doesn't have." Instead, they are spectrum disorders, which means every adult on the planet occasionally exhibits all BPD and NPD traits to some degree (albeit at a low level if the person is healthy). At issue, then, is not whether your GF exhibits BPD and NPD traits. Of course she does. We all do.

Rather, at issue is whether she exhibits those traits at a strong and persistent level (i.e., is on the upper third of the BPD and NPD spectrums). Not having met her, I cannot answer that question. I nonetheless believe you can spot any strong BPD or NPD warning signs that are present if you take a little time to learn which behaviors are on the list. They are easy to spot because there is nothing subtle about behaviors such as always being "The Victim," verbal abuse, lack of empathy, feeling entitled, and temper tantrums.

If you're seeing very strong and persistent narcissistic traits, she likely is deliberately saying things to hurt you and elevate herself (in her mind) above you. On the other hand, if you're seeing only strong BPD symptoms, she very likely is NOT trying to deliberately hurt you. Instead, one of her two fears has been triggered and she is trying to defend and protect herself. BPDers usually believe most of the outrageous allegations coming out of their mouths. Narcissists do not.

The primary difference between NPD and BPD behaviors is that a full-blown narcissist is incapable of loving you and always lacks affective empathy (i.e., cannot feel what it is that you're feeling).

In contrast, a BPDer is capable of loving you but is so immature that she will love you in the limited way that a young child is able to love (i.e., she will split you black and white, sometimes being in touch with her love and at other times not). As to affective empathy, a BPDer typically has it while she's splitting you white but has none of it when splitting you black.

Significantly, BOTH BPDers and narcissists will insist that you change your behavior and stop being yourself. But they do it for different reasons. So, if I had to guess, I'd say that you now seem to be describing symptoms closer to NPD.

I say this because, when a BPDer is verbally abusive and controlling, it occurs because you've triggered her fear of abandonment or engulfment. Hence, when she is very controlling, she will insist on changes like dropping all female friends, looking at other women for a half second instead of a full second, devoting your time to her whenever she wants company, and proving your love over and over again.

A narcissistic woman will be just as controlling. However, her focus is on validating her false self image of being special and superior. She therefore will insist on your agreeing with everything she says -- and insisting on cosmetic changes (e.g., your clothing and haircut) and your behaving in a way that raises her status in the eyes of other people.

This is not to say, however, that having strong NPD symptoms rules out BPD. On the contrary, many narcissists also exhibit strong BPD symptoms. A recent study found that, for women having full-blown narcissism, 41% of them also exhibited full-blown BPD. See Table 3 at 2008 Study in JCP.

Did most of the 18 BPD Warning Signs sound very familiar to you? If so, and if they raised questions you would like to discuss, it would be helpful if you would tell us which of those signs are very strong and which are very weak.
It’s really confusing because. She says she can’t help what she does when she’s angry. For example, when we argue on the phone, she sometimes cuts the line randomly then disappears and won’t answer for ages. This frustrates me so much and I hate it and feel disrespected & she knows this, but still she use to do it and said she can’t control her actions. She’s always trying to punish me emotionally for things she thinks I’ve done wrong. She knows my weaknesses and uses them against me. I think somewhere along the line she started losing respect for me and that’s why she started acting like this, and because I forgave her and stayed she just carried on doing it over and over.

From what you’ve described I think she’s just an outright narcissist. The fact that she told me she’d leave me if I don’t cut my hair the way she wants and dress, just proves that. She even said once that she always see’s others looking that way and would hate it after were married if I didn’t follow that trend.

She has the below BPD traits, but I still believe she’s just a narcissist because she’s always trying to inflict damage on me to punish me, and is never prepared to talk and resolve problems.

2. Frequent use of all-or-nothing expressions like "you always" and "you never;"
3. Irrational jealousy and controlling behaviour that tries to isolate you away from close friends or family members; (This at the beginning of the relationship, but stopped after a few months.)
4. A strong sense of entitlement that prevents her from appreciating your sacrifices
5. Flipping, on a dime, between adoring you and devaluing you
8. Anger that is easily triggered, in seconds, by a minor thing you say or do (real or imagined)
9. Fear of abandonment or being alone (This at the beginning of the relationship, but stopped after a few months.)
10. Always being "The Victim," (She thinks she’s never wrong)
11. Lack of impulse control (This for sure)
12. Complaining that all her previous BFs were abusive (When we first started talking I remember her telling me she left her ex, but just a few months ago she said he left her, and she sounded like she regretted something, but she wouldn’t go into detail).
13. Mirroring your personality and preferences
18. Always convinced that her intense feelings accurately reflect reality

On a side note, if she has BPD what’s the chances she’s not being herself and will realise she’s made a mistake?

Regardless of all that, I still love her due to being with her for so long. We even had a thing were we usually slept on the phone together and had been since we started our relationship up until the recent break up, that’s why I’m finding it difficult to sleep at nights due to this bad habit. So I stupidly ended up calling her at 6am today to which she lashed out and said “Get of the line”, she then turned her phone off. It felt like daggers to the chest, how can someone fall out of love in just a week and not care? I’ve gone from being the most important person in her life to a stranger. So while at work during my lunch today I had made up my mind to call her once last time to see if I can win her back. She answered the phone shouting saying “What do you want!?”. I then asked her if we was over for good and she said it’s been over for a week now. She sounded like she didn’t care one bit. She said me and her will never happen. The tone of her voice was like any other day while I was devastated. Anyway long story short is that she thinks I’m a cheap skate and won’t be able to support her and so she doesn’t want to be with me. Yeah I did become more money concerned but I’m saving up to buy a house, but is that a reason to break up? Her love was all fake, she never loved me for who I am, she only loved the person she hoped I would become. But when she failed to turn me into the person she wanted, she didn’t want to be with me anymore. If she truly loved me she would never have left me and hurt me so bad for these stupid reasons.

After our last conversation I deleted her number and all her pictures too. I have no way of contacting her now. She said she will contact me soon so I can return the watch she got me as its something that she wants to give to her future husband. I don’t understand how can someone just leave like that? I always treated her right, sure we fought a lot, but she knew I loved her like crazy, and I always made her feel loved. It hurts because she said she begged her ex to stay when he was leaving her even though he cheated. But she won’t do the same for me, who loves her to bits. This just makes me feel like trash as I was 100% loyal to her. She even had the nerve to say that if her ex comes back into her life today she would leave me for him (I know she didn’t mean it, she only said it to hurt me). I trusted this person with my life, I told her my deepest secrets, I cried in front of this women and she still left me. I hate myself so much right now.

What are the chances she would ever want to get back together? Not that I would want to. I just feel like rejecting her for once.

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Originally Posted by HumanMachine View Post
Pleading with a female.. when will guys realise that this will NEVER work?
I know that now, I learnt the hard way.
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Old 19th December 2017, 6:11 AM   #9
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Hi everyone, she called me yesterday, and we talked, she states she called regarding the watch, she wants me to post it to her, but I said I'll drop it of to her at her work place, but she insists to post it. We then had a general chat and she seemed more calm and herself. I was playing it cool not talking about us at all. She then randomly said she's been talking to her ex husband and possibly will get back together. That hurt me so i said what about us? And started asking her if we had a future? Why she's picking a cheat over me? She said it's her choice. So i tried to convince her to meet me one last time to return the watch but she kept saying no. She then talked more and more about her husband getting back together. So i became desperate and tried to convice her why we should be together. She then said she doesn't love me anymore and doesn't want me. She also said she just lied about her ex husband coming back to get me to leave her. But the weird thing is she initiated the husband getting back talk even before i started pleading, i wasn't even talking about us at that time. Can you tell me whats going on? Does she still love me? Is she trying to make me jelous? She made it sound like we have no hope, so what is going on? Is she just playing mind games? She knows how much I love her and I've proved it, so why is she doing this? Do you think when I give the watch back she will stop initiating contact?
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Old 19th December 2017, 6:42 AM   #10
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Did you pay absolutely no attention to what she said?

Post the watch to her because she doesnít want to see you
She doesnít love you
Sheís going back to her ex husband

Sorry but you made yourself look very silly by begging for her and being desperate, why must she explain herself to you why she has picked her ex?

Get rid of the stupid watch and move on, for your own sanity!!
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Old 24th December 2017, 12:50 AM   #11
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You don't want to hear this, but run away. Fast. It sounds like she's got some sort of personality issue, and it's not going to change. Love bombing at the beginning, devaluing you suddenly, trying to isolate you from other loved ones, and then triangulating you against her ex husband are all major warning signs. I'm sure there are more but I started skimming some of the posts because I know that Downtown has BPD (and somewhat NPD) covered.

Whether she clinically has a personality disorder or just exhibits strong traits in a way that affect you negatively, it will just get worse. You can never commit to someone with the expectation that they will eventually change in a way you want them to. Especially with no real evidence that she wants those changes or is trying.

If anyone ever has a condition that they'll commit but you need to abandon your loved ones (who are not toxic to you), they're manipulative, insecure, and trying to see how far they can control you. That in itself is a red flag you shouldn't ignore, plus all the other bad stuff...

You should look up trauma bonding and signs of emotional abuse. You feel like you love her more now that she's being erratic and discarding you, but she's likely triggering an anxious response in you that feels overwhelming and can be confused with passion. Send the watch back and please try to go no contact and see if you feel more stable after a little while away from her.

One last thing, don't compare yourself to her ex husband, or make assumptions about her behavior with him versus you. She paints herself as the victim, so you have no idea what really happened. It's likely she put him through the same garbage she's putting you through, and THAT is why they broke up. Not worth your effort or sanity to be the "one who rejects her" finally, because you can't win with someone whose brain doesn't work like yours. You'll never be able to keep up with the rules or the truth because both those things are inconsistent for her.
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Old 24th December 2017, 2:34 PM   #12
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Solid, I apologize for my delayed response to your Dec 11 questions. I just noticed that post today when reading SpecialJ's latest comments.

Quote:
Itís really confusing because she says she canít help what she does when sheís angry.
If she exhibits strong NPD and BPD symptoms as you believe, her emotional development likely is frozen at the level of a young child. So, of course, it is far more difficult for her to control her impulses than it is for a mature adult to do so. Yet, even small children have some degree of control over their actions and -- if there is to be any hope of them acquiring more emotional control -- it is essential that they be held fully responsible for their own bad choices and actions.

This is why healthy parents allow their young children to suffer (within reason) the logical consequences of their own actions. And this is why you should not believe her irresponsible claim that "she can't help what she does when she's angry." If you were to believe that false claim, you would become an enabler who allows her to continue behaving like a spoiled four year old and GETTING AWAY WITH IT.

By enabling her bad behavior in that manner, you would be harming her in the same way that some parents harm their own children by spoiling them. You therefore made a wise decision when choosing to stand up for yourself and enforce your personal boundaries (e.g., dress and hair style).

Quote:
She has the below BPD traits, but I still believe sheís just a narcissist because sheís always trying to inflict damage on me to punish me.
The nine BPD traits describe behavioral symptoms that -- when sufficiently severe -- are assumed to be caused by a (unidentified) disorder. Similarly, NPD traits describe only the behavioral symptoms -- and tell us nothing about the disorder causing those symptoms.

Because these symptoms describe only patterns of behavior (not the underlying disorder), it is common for a person exhibiting one pattern to exhibit one or two others as well. This is why a person exhibiting strong narcissist traits likely exhibits strong symptoms of one or two other PDs as well. As I noted earlier, 41% of full-blown narcissists also exhibit full-blown BPD.

Quote:
if she has BPD whatís the chances sheís not being herself and will realise sheís made a mistake?
Well, anything is possible. But, if she exhibits strong and persistent symptoms of BPD or NPD, it is extremely unlikely she will have a lasting realization of having wronged you. What is more likely to occur -- if she has an emotional breakdown due to losing you -- if for her to have "moments of clarity" lasting perhaps a day or two.

During those moments, a BPDer will turn her anger inward onto herself and see her own mistakes. Sadly, however, those moments have no lasting effect at all unless the BPDer undergoes many years of intensive therapy to acquire the missing emotional skills. By their very nature, PDs such as BPD and NPD usually are invisible to the people suffering from them.

Quote:
How can someone fall out of love in just a week and not care?
If she exhibits full-blown narcissism, there is no love to "fall out of." A narcissist cannot love. On the other hand, if she is a full-blown BPDer, she likely loved you in the immature way that a four-year-old is able to love.

In that latter case, you are effectively asking how a young child is suddenly able to stop loving Daddy when he takes a toy away. The answer, as I understand it, is that emotionally immature people are unable to be consciously connected to two strong conflicting feelings. They therefore "split off" one of the conflicting feelings (e.g., love), putting it far out of reach of the conscious mind. This is why young children and BPDers can instantly flip back and forth between loving and hating (or devaluing) someone.
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Old 2nd January 2018, 9:32 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpecialJ View Post
You don't want to hear this, but run away. Fast. It sounds like she's got some sort of personality issue, and it's not going to change. Love bombing at the beginning, devaluing you suddenly, trying to isolate you from other loved ones, and then triangulating you against her ex husband are all major warning signs. I'm sure there are more but I started skimming some of the posts because I know that Downtown has BPD (and somewhat NPD) covered.

Whether she clinically has a personality disorder or just exhibits strong traits in a way that affect you negatively, it will just get worse. You can never commit to someone with the expectation that they will eventually change in a way you want them to. Especially with no real evidence that she wants those changes or is trying.

If anyone ever has a condition that they'll commit but you need to abandon your loved ones (who are not toxic to you), they're manipulative, insecure, and trying to see how far they can control you. That in itself is a red flag you shouldn't ignore, plus all the other bad stuff...

You should look up trauma bonding and signs of emotional abuse. You feel like you love her more now that she's being erratic and discarding you, but she's likely triggering an anxious response in you that feels overwhelming and can be confused with passion. Send the watch back and please try to go no contact and see if you feel more stable after a little while away from her.

One last thing, don't compare yourself to her ex husband, or make assumptions about her behavior with him versus you. She paints herself as the victim, so you have no idea what really happened. It's likely she put him through the same garbage she's putting you through, and THAT is why they broke up. Not worth your effort or sanity to be the "one who rejects her" finally, because you can't win with someone whose brain doesn't work like yours. You'll never be able to keep up with the rules or the truth because both those things are inconsistent for her.
I donít know why sheís doing it though, because I treated her well. If sheís insecure then why is she behaving in such a way that would push me away from her? She will never change because she doesnít think sheís doing anything wrong and thinks its all my fault and Iím the one to blame. But your right she is toxic to me, because she never cared if I was emotionally happy or not. But I think thatís because she was somehow incapable of judging how her actions were making me feel. And your right about her ex-husband. I donít know what the truth is in regards to that. When we first met she said she left him. But around 2 months ago she casually said he left her. All I know is she was hurt by him a lot. And now that you mention it, she was a very good liar. She would lie about the littlest things so casually without remorse then contradict herself later. I noticed this about her but just brushed it off. I truly don't know what else she could have lied to me about.

I looked up trauma bonding, and I can relate to it. You really don't know how it feels unless your in that position. I am addicted to her, that's why I keep going back even though she puts me through hell. I never thought I'd be the one with a problem here.
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Old 2nd January 2018, 9:39 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Downtown View Post
Solid, I apologize for my delayed response to your Dec 11 questions. I just noticed that post today when reading SpecialJ's latest comments.

If she exhibits strong NPD and BPD symptoms as you believe, her emotional development likely is frozen at the level of a young child. So, of course, it is far more difficult for her to control her impulses than it is for a mature adult to do so. Yet, even small children have some degree of control over their actions and -- if there is to be any hope of them acquiring more emotional control -- it is essential that they be held fully responsible for their own bad choices and actions.

This is why healthy parents allow their young children to suffer (within reason) the logical consequences of their own actions. And this is why you should not believe her irresponsible claim that "she can't help what she does when she's angry." If you were to believe that false claim, you would become an enabler who allows her to continue behaving like a spoiled four year old and GETTING AWAY WITH IT.

By enabling her bad behavior in that manner, you would be harming her in the same way that some parents harm their own children by spoiling them. You therefore made a wise decision when choosing to stand up for yourself and enforce your personal boundaries (e.g., dress and hair style).

The nine BPD traits describe behavioral symptoms that -- when sufficiently severe -- are assumed to be caused by a (unidentified) disorder. Similarly, NPD traits describe only the behavioral symptoms -- and tell us nothing about the disorder causing those symptoms.

Because these symptoms describe only patterns of behavior (not the underlying disorder), it is common for a person exhibiting one pattern to exhibit one or two others as well. This is why a person exhibiting strong narcissist traits likely exhibits strong symptoms of one or two other PDs as well. As I noted earlier, 41% of full-blown narcissists also exhibit full-blown BPD.

Well, anything is possible. But, if she exhibits strong and persistent symptoms of BPD or NPD, it is extremely unlikely she will have a lasting realization of having wronged you. What is more likely to occur -- if she has an emotional breakdown due to losing you -- if for her to have "moments of clarity" lasting perhaps a day or two.

During those moments, a BPDer will turn her anger inward onto herself and see her own mistakes. Sadly, however, those moments have no lasting effect at all unless the BPDer undergoes many years of intensive therapy to acquire the missing emotional skills. By their very nature, PDs such as BPD and NPD usually are invisible to the people suffering from them.

If she exhibits full-blown narcissism, there is no love to "fall out of." A narcissist cannot love. On the other hand, if she is a full-blown BPDer, she likely loved you in the immature way that a four-year-old is able to love.

In that latter case, you are effectively asking how a young child is suddenly able to stop loving Daddy when he takes a toy away. The answer, as I understand it, is that emotionally immature people are unable to be consciously connected to two strong conflicting feelings. They therefore "split off" one of the conflicting feelings (e.g., love), putting it far out of reach of the conscious mind. This is why young children and BPDers can instantly flip back and forth between loving and hating (or devaluing) someone.
She does exhibit strong NPD and BPD symptoms and sheís very child like to. She cannot control her anger and impulses and trying to calm her down is next to impossible. If not a narcissist I strongly believe she has BPD. Either way sheís emotionally drained me and blames me for everything when I know Iíve done nothing wrong. All Iíve done is stuck up for myself and what believe in. She just canít accept me having my own opinions, needs and boundaries and not physically changing into the person she wants me to be. She never wanted me as I am so whether she has BPD or NPD, sheís still someone thatís not good for me. I can now see that reasoning with her would be a waste of time because she's not capable of understanding, because of how her mind works. She is not stupid but there is something definitely wrong with how her mind works. It just sucks because I love her a lot but she doesn't belive me and thinks I'm against her all the time.
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Old 7th January 2018, 9:17 AM   #15
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I have been no contact with her for almost 3 weeks now. She hasnít attempted to contact me either. I have a lot of questions in my mind and hope that you guys can help give me closure. The reasons she gave for leaving me are stupid, but Iím starting to doubt if it was my fault. When me and her first met we were just 2 people, we werenít friends or anything. We only talked probably once a week for like half an hour. She seemed normal back then and I didnít know about her depression or struggles.

After about 3 months of being casual and talking once a week, we both started calling each other more and more and in the next 3 months after we got really close and started talking everyday pretty much all the time. We were really close and met up at least every 2 or 3 days. Our lifeís started revolving around each otherís and everything was perfect. We both was deeply in love and got engaged. During this time she was heavily depressed and would tell me about her ex husband and how abusive he was. She told me he cheated on her, made her feel worthless and they argued all the time because of how he behaved with her. She made herself look like she was a victim and cried to me about how much sheís gone through being with him. At the time I felt really sorry for her, so I would do whatever I could to make her happy, I was there for her whenever she needed and was a shoulder for her to cry on. After about another month or 2 she seemed to have slipped out of depression. At this point she had introduced me to her family and I became somewhat close to them. This is why Iím confused because if she has BPD or is a narcissist then why would she introduce me to her family if she didnít intend to marry me? Sheís from an extremely religious family so introducing me to her family is a big step. Everything seemed to be going perfectly, she seemed to be turning into the type of girl I like. For example she would dress and do her makeup the way I liked out of her own will. She was crazy about me and I felt really wanted. I mean she would get extremely upset if I didnít call her on time etc, she was very jealous over me and clingy and constantly wanted my attention. I didnít mind this because I felt wanted and it was a good feeling.

Even though things were great I started noticing the red flags in her behaviour. She was extremely child like and would get angry and annoyed so easily if I did something she did not agree with. Her behaviour was really frustrating to me because she would not acknowledge she was wrong, ever. We started to argue more and more and most of it was about her behaviour and how she was never sorry about anything she did. She would break up with me because of this then make up within hours, she had a habit of breaking up and making up frequently. This use to hurt me so much so I got fed up one time and told her if you break up with me again then that would be it. I knew she actually never meant it when she broke up with me but it still hurt. So the next time she broke up, I said fine and cut the phone on her and went to bed. She then called me up 3 hours later that night and sent me pictures of herself with major cuts on the underside of her arm. She said to me that this was all my fault. I was in shock and argued itís not my fault. At this point she believed that we were actually broken up, so got a scalf and started strangling herself with it for around an hour. I could hear her chocking but all I could do was tell her to stop over the phone, mind you she carried on doing it even though I told her we have not broken up. I threatened to call her sisters up and tell them what she was doing, but she made me promise not to. She only stopped doing it when I broke down from the stress.

After the above happened everything was fine for another 2 weeks or so, then she started bringing up the topic of how she wanted me to cut my hair (She did mention this at the beginning but assumed I would cave in after we got married), She wanted me to cut my hair in such a way that I hated and despised, so I refused. I tried to compromise and cut it in a similar way that I was ok with, but she was not happy. We would argue about this a lot, at least every 2 or 3 days, it even lead to her crying, cutting and strangling herself with a scalf again. But I just couldnít do it. I tried to explain to her that you canít force me to do something Iím not happy with because thatís not love, but then she would argue that if you loved me then you would do it for me. She thought it wasnít a big deal, but to me it was. She wanted me to dress and cut my hair like a chav pretty much. She wanted me to wear extremely tight clothes, and become a skinhead along the side with a size 5 of hair at the top. But this just wasnít me so I refused because my style in more casual. As stupid as all this sounds she was extremely serious about this and its one of the reasons why she left me. She even once said to me, ďLook at me and look at you, no one would every believe we was togetherĒ. Granted sheís extremely good looking, but saying something like that is un-called for. When I confronted her she didnít think she said anything wrong. Itís like sheís incapable of understanding how her words affect others.

In addition to the above, we had some other minor arguments during our time together, such as who would do what house work when we got married. I proposed we would do things equally, and if I mentioned anything she could do then I got accused of being controlling. We also had disputes over money as she is from a well of family and pretty much got whatever she always wanted. She is good at managing money but doesnít save anything. She thought that I was tight because I was more reserved with the way I spend and she felt that I wouldnít be able to support her when we got married. Yes, I did come across as being kind of tight, in the sense that I didnít spend a lot on myself because I am saving up for a house and talked a lot about saving. But in our time together I have never asked her for any money and whenever we went out I always paid for everything and never let her pay. We even went out with her nieces once and I ended up spending around £400 on them just on that one day.
This is going to sound really dumb, but we once argued about buying an item cheaper at a place I know, but she wanted to buy the exact same item in a store she uses regularly for a higher price. When I asked her why she would buy the exact same item for more money when she could get it cheaper elsewhere, she didnít have an answer, but kept saying she just wants to, that has to be the dumbest argument ever. Despite this no matter how much I reasoned with her, sheís just convinced that Iím a cheapskate that wonít support her well financially, and itís also one of the main reasons she gave for dumping me.

Other things she use to do when we argued worth mentioning is that she would randomly just cut the phone line on me halfway while were arguing. Or she would just stay silent on the line for up to 5 Ė 10 mins while Iím upset and frustrated. When I asked why she did this because I hated it so much and felt disrespected, she would say, because of your behaviour. The thing is to me thatís emotional abuse because all I was doing was trying to fix the problem we were having. Her doing this implied she was punishing me, which worked cause I started getting worried about bringing topics up with her because she would get upset or angry and break up with me.
After a minor argument, she once cut the line and blocked me on everything, WhatsApp, phone, everything, so I had no way of contacting her at all. Half an hour later she unblocked me and acted like it was no big deal. No doubt that was another way of punishing me.

Anyway after all these arguments and disagreements of me not agreeing to cut my hair and dress the way she wanted. I think she finally had enough and started pulling away. She started calling me less and wanted to see me less. This made me become needy and comparing myself to her ex and constantly asking if she loved me. In addition to the constant break ups and me begging and pleading her to come back I think it just put her off. In the last days of the final break up, she made me promise not to bring up the topic but I was hurting and couldnít help myself and needed her to comfort me but she just didnít want to talk about the issues we had, and me constantly bringing it up led her to ending it.

I love her a lot and treated her well. You guys might be thinking this is just my side of the whole story. But I always treated her well and never let her feel unloved. I always made her feel special and wanted. Sure, we had our rows but I would always make sure it never crossed the line unlike her. I never played any kind of mind games and never broke up with her ever. I stayed with her even though she put me through hell. She was always talking about breaking up while I was always talking about mending things. She was just never prepared to talk things through about the problems we were having, which wasnít working for me. Because I canít pretend like nothing was wrong. Sometimes a little sorry would have been enough, but she wouldnít even acknowledge when sheís at fault even when she knew she was logically wrong. No matter what she would twist it and make it seem like I did something wrong. For example her ex husband would give her number out to random guys online to piss her off, so she would get random phone calls almost every night, so I asked her to change her number and got accused of being controlling and not trusting her when thatís not the case. I just didnít want her getting calls from random guys every night. Does that make me controlling, did I do anything wrong in saying that?

To be honest I donít know what the reasons are for her breaking up with me. During the begging and pleading on different days she gave different answers. Once it was cause she thinks all I think about is money. Once was because I refused to accept how she wanted me to cut my hair. And once was apparently because Iím to controlling, which is not the case. I also think I messed up with the begging and pleading because it put turned her off and she even said to me directly at one point ďWhy are disrespecting yourself by crying and forcing me so muchĒ.

With all that said, itís pretty much caught up to my first post. I just wanted to write all this up, so I can come back to it if I ever get the urge to contact her again. We havenít been in contact for 3 weeks now and she never rang me to return her watch. I just want to know from reading the above, did I do anything wrong and am I to blame for anything like sheís convinced? (Please be honest), Iíve only treated her with respect and care, and love her to bits despite being treated like crap. I just donít know why after knowing everything sheís put me though, why I still miss her. I think it might be because she so strongly believes sheís right and I just want to prove to her sheís wrong and if I could show her sheís wrong then she would start changing. I miss the person she was when we first met, the person that was so crazy about me, that she even harmed herself for me. Now sheís just a cold callus person that I never thought her to be. She left me for minor reasons we could have talked through, and did so in a manner like I cheated on her or broke her trust or something. She was rude and extremely hurtful with her words when she left. I wish I could go back it time and never had begged and cried for her to come back. Because I feel shame that I looked so weak in front of her when she isnít worth it. I wasted so much energy and tears on her. If she really loved me she would never have left me. The pain is really unbearable and sometimes I just feel like giving up.

Sorry if this is all inconsistent, I just let it all out as it came to me. All I want to know is am I to blame for any of this? Iím confused because she believes Iím wrong. But then if I caved in and did everything she wanted me to then she would be with me right now. Iím not sure if I was being selfish or her.
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