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Why do I resent being the initiator? approaching and asking out, i feel i shouldn't


BronzeAgeJaeger217

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BronzeAgeJaeger217

I don't know why but I've always resented the gender role that guys have to be the initiators of dating and relationships, approach and talk to the girl first, go up to her first, initiate conversations and ask her out, do the pursuing, etc. So this is not a typical question of why do guys have to be the initiators, its a question going deep as to why I resent the fact that guys are expected to be the initiator and see unfairness in that, I feel I shouldn't.

 

 

They say that guys, men, are natural born hunters, men have evolved to be the pursuers, that men embrace that role, if that is the case then why is being a relentless pursuer not something that is instinctively, innately, ingrained in me?

 

 

I sometimes wonder if something is just fundamentally, psychologically wrong me, or genetically in terms of mentality, mindset.

 

 

Because I feel that being the pursuer is something that I should embrace or just do automatically since most people say that men are natural pursuers, hunters, like they say it like as it men are naturally like that, but I was never naturally like that.

 

 

I'm asking this question because maybe I have bigger issues that I don't notice that I need to fix first. Some will say I just lack balls(as much as I hate, despise, loathe that term), although obviously i'm not literally castrated.

 

 

I wonder what causes me and other guys to resent having to be the initiator, making the first move? just part of our natural personality or just bad influences growing up, negative conditioning?

Edited by BronzeAgeJaeger217
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I wonder what causes me and other guys to resent having to be the initiator, making the first move? just part of our natural personality or just bad influences growing up, negative conditioning?

 

We all are somewhat a product of biology, our specific personality, and environment.

 

It's hard to say if what's going on with you is more environment (bad influences growing up, negative conditioning, etc.) or just your personality. It could be a combination of the two.

 

I believe that is a bit of introspection that you may have to sit down and do yourself.

 

Like me for example...I lack basic social skills in part cuz my dad kept us isolated. We didn't even get to do sleepovers as kids. So, relating/communicating with people has and continues to be a difficult thing for me to do. So, as a woman going on 40, relating and communicating with others is something I have grown to feel pressured to do and prefer to do it on my own terms.

 

I also have trust issues - which again, come from my childhood...where I lost trust in people who were supposed to love and care for me. So, I'm cautious when dealing with people...but open up when I'm comfortable, actually, I open up a bit too much if I do get comfy - hence, why trusting is important to me before opening up.

 

So for me, I believe environment molded me into what I am now.

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Rejected Rosebud

You just have to come to peace with the way things are. Resentment is a very bad thing, it can make a person bitter and sick. If you truly don't want to do any initiating then just don't, and start to gracefully accept the consequences I think I have written to you before that in EVERY part of life those who really GO for what they want get the most, passivity is really not rewarded including for women regardless of what you think.

 

You know if I were a different girl I would not have to exercise alot to have a good figure, I have a friend who does nothing and she is HAWT! :mad::mad: I also don't really like to exercise! Are you going to support me wallowing in self pity and resentment because of the unfairness of this, I bet you aren't! :D The way it is, is that if I care about my figure I am going to have to bite the bullet and exercise, if this is too unpleasant for me to deal with then I will have to gracefully accept the consequence of being ... plump.:)

 

One more thing. Girls don't have it anywhere as easy peasy as you seem to think simply because culturally we are the ones who get asked out on dates. If you are interested in every getting to know any of us you should pay attention, srsly!

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truthtripper

I wonder what causes me and other guys to resent having to be the initiator, making the first move? just part of our natural personality or just bad influences growing up, negative conditioning?

 

Throughout my life I've had assertive female friends who have had no trouble approaching men and making the first move, so to speak. And importantly, it's socially acceptable where I live. So I don't think it's a biological thing for men to take the initiative. Perhaps this is seen in other species of warm blooded animals-I'm not a biologist-and if so, the difference between us and them, is that we have the conscious mind to make these sorts of decisions. So I would think conditioning/personality plays a larger part.

 

I wouldn't worry about it if I was you. The more comfortable and relaxed you are with yourself, the more likely you will attract girls. Never be desperate, this only repulses girls.

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I wonder what causes me and other guys to resent having to be the initiator, making the first move?
Initiating is harder for some than others. I struggled with it quite a bit myself. I grew up in a different culture in which marriages were primarily arranged by the parents.

 

The best advice I can give you is to keep trying. It's hard, but it gets easier. You will fail a lot early on because your approaches will be awkward. However, they will become less awkward as you practice.

... passivity is really not rewarded including for women regardless of what you think.
Can you elaborate on this? The vast majority of the women I know and most of the women I've dated have all chosen the passive route (waiting for men to approach them). They're very successful when it comes to dating, so I don't understand how being passive is not rewarding for them.
Never be desperate, this only repulses girls.
It took me a while to learn this lesson too. Once you start oozing desperation, it's time to take a break. Your frustrations will just continue building if you don't give yourself time to recharge.
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BronzeAgeJaeger217
Initiating is harder for some than others. I struggled with it quite a bit myself. I grew up in a different culture in which marriages were primarily arranged by the parents.

 

The best advice I can give you is to keep trying. It's hard, but it gets easier. You will fail a lot early on because your approaches will be awkward. However, they will become less awkward as you practice.Can you elaborate on this? The vast majority of the women I know and most of the women I've dated have all chosen the passive route (waiting for men to approach them). They're very successful when it comes to dating, so I don't understand how being passive is not rewarding for them.It took me a while to learn this lesson too. Once you start oozing desperation, it's time to take a break. Your frustrations will just continue building if you don't give yourself time to recharge.

 

Exactly, maybe the reality is some people are just naturally unlucky in the dating/mating game

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Originally Posted by Rejected Rosebud

... passivity is really not rewarded including for women regardless of what you think.

Can you elaborate on this? The vast majority of the women I know and most of the women I've dated have all chosen the passive route (waiting for men to approach them). They're very successful when it comes to dating, so I don't understand how being passive is not rewarding for them.

 

Because outwardly they may seem successful, men WILL choose them, but the problem for some women is that in their eyes the RIGHT men didn't choose them. They passively waited around to be chosen, and then chose the best out of the bunch of men that chose them, and that can lead to other problems later on.

"I really wanted a man who wasn't so <insert word of choice>" ,

"I really wanted a man who was more <insert word of choice>"

 

So had they been been more "active" and sought out the men who they wanted, men who they felt would be their soulmate and a great match, then I guess they would feel more successful.

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Because outwardly they may seem successful, men WILL choose them, but the problem for some women is that in their eyes the RIGHT men didn't choose them. They passively waited around to be chosen, and then chose the best out of the bunch of men that chose them, and that can lead to other problems later on.

"I really wanted a man who wasn't so <insert word of choice>" ,

"I really wanted a man who was more <insert word of choice>"

 

So had they been been more "active" and sought out the men who they wanted, men who they felt would be their soulmate and a great match, then I guess they would feel more successful.

 

Nothing was stopping them from doing the initiating unless maybe they grew up in Afghanistan.

 

It's all laziness, nothing more. Society dictates it is so and women go with it... Why wouldn't they?

It's like getting paid to do nothing

 

This dynamic may change eventually but we will all be long underground by then.

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It's all laziness, nothing more. Society dictates it is so and women go with it... Why wouldn't they?

It's like getting paid to do nothing

 

This dynamic may change eventually but we will all be long underground by then.

 

Society is very powerful, and going against the rules of society is difficult.

Women can initiate and although men groan about initiating, women taking the initiative can be a no-no to many men too.

 

I think most men who are happy in the approaching/initiating role are none too happy when women start doing the initial approach.

THEY as men, decide who they date or not and any women presuming they can make a first approach will often find she is rejected, unless she is outrageously hot. ;)

I also feel that the approach can set the tone for the relationship dynamic, some men may not be happy giving up the perceived power that the first approach tends to give.

"YOU just waited around, but I actively chose YOU"

 

Men who are not happy initiating or get a lot of rejections, tend to want women to initiate as "Yay!", they then have a guaranteed date.

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BronzeAgeJaeger217
Society is very powerful, and going against the rules of society is difficult.

Women can initiate and although men groan about initiating, women taking the initiative can be a no-no to many men too.

 

I think most men who are happy in the approaching/initiating role are none too happy when women start doing the initial approach.

THEY as men, decide who they date or not and any women presuming they can make a first approach will often find she is rejected, unless she is outrageously hot. ;)

I also feel that the approach can set the tone for the relationship dynamic, some men may not be happy giving up the perceived power that the first approach tends to give.

"YOU just waited around, but I actively chose YOU"

 

Men who are not happy initiating or get a lot of rejections, tend to want women to initiate as "Yay!", they then have a guaranteed date.

maybe that's it, and I've heard some people argue that men's testosterone levels have declined in this generation the past 20-30 years
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Rejected Rosebud

It's all laziness, nothing more. Society dictates it is so and women go with it... Why wouldn't they?

It's like getting paid to do nothing

 

Oh come on we are not lazy if we don't ask men on dates just like a man is not lazy if he doesn't take over all the feedings of the baby!! :lmao: Yes, we have learned over centuries and been raised to be comfortable in gender roles. if you want to break out of it the incentive needs to be there. I agree that if you are shy you are luckier to be a woman than a man because it's not expected for you to ask people out on dates. But in the big scheme of things it isn't really a sign that women are lazy if they don't ask you out!

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OP I think it's really positive that you asked your original question in the way that you did.

 

The reality is that not everyone is, "socially set" in the way that we are told we are - not all older women are, "cougars", not all men are, "hunters", but we all do socially have more options. But that doesn't mean that life is easy peasy lemon squeezy.

 

*maybe that's it, and I've heard some people argue that men's testosterone levels have declined in this generation the past 20-30 years* Nope. You just have difficulty within your personal sphere of experience.

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Exactly, maybe the reality is some people are just naturally unlucky in the dating/mating game
Many factors outside your control will affect your dating life. Yes, women (in general) have a much easier time getting dates and sex. Rather than dwelling on this, you need to accept it and focus on what you can do to maximize your chances.

 

You have options: You can either learn to initiate and practice it until it's no longer hard for you or you can develop yourself to become someone who doesn't need to initiate.

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who likes rejection?? or the possibility of rejection?? But i believe being rejected and learning not to give up gives a man depth and character. You will be better able to appreciate a woman having walked the burning coals of rejection and you would also better face any types of adversity. it's funny how a small task like that has such a ripple effect. Our ancestors knew a little something about what rituals were necessary :p

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BronzeAgeJaeger217

My main new habit as of lately trying to develop is not just overcoming approach anxiety towards women in general but talking to everyone or almost everyone wherever I go, regardless of their age or look, building up social momentum, had a great long conversation with a middle aged woman at the Dog park, she did a lot of the talking and I listened, did my share of talking, kinda raised my self-esteem to know I can develop better social skills and have potential

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Grumpybutfun

Nothing is wrong with you. Biology explains only a portion of what we are internally. It is perfectly normal not to like to initiate if you lack social skills or if you resent social structures or gender roles. I like that you trying to build yourself up by approaching and talking to strangers. You are approaching this positively and hopefully when you need those skills, such as seeing an interesting girl you might want to get to know, you can utilize them. This is all about practice....I started young to develop those skills....just keep trying and don't worry that something is wrong with you. It isn't. This is a rite of passage for young men, no matter how skilled they are. You just need practice and time.

Good Luck,

Grumps

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truthtripper
....women taking the initiative can be a no-no to many men too.

My girlfriends and I have never experienced this. Where I live, men are flattered when approached by women.

Edited by a LoveShack.org Moderator
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Cupid's Puppet

You men don't want to put effort into anything. You don't want to be providers. You don't want to improve your looks. You don't want to ask a lady out. Next you'll start asking why you're expected to be the protector and why the woman can't protect you. Who is raising these boys???

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You men don't want to put effort into anything. You don't want to be providers. You don't want to improve your looks. You don't want to ask a lady out. Next you'll start asking why you're expected to be the protector and why the woman can't protect you. Who is raising these boys???

 

Putting effort into it is not the issue with perpetually rejected people. Barring a haircut how can you realistically improve your looks, if you are skinny you can go to the gym as much as you like but unless your t shirt off all the work means nothing in the grand scheme of things.

 

I agree with the opening poster, why must guys always initiate?

 

Ladies complain about guys using them for one night stands, how many of the same ladies brutally turned down a genuinely nice guy?

 

If your experience is always bad and you put in the effort then after a while you simply don't bother and that just drives good guys into paying for sex.

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You men don't want to put effort into anything. You don't want to be providers. You don't want to improve your looks. You don't want to ask a lady out. Next you'll start asking why you're expected to be the protector and why the woman can't protect you. Who is raising these boys???

 

This entitlement mentality relates precisely to what the OP is talking about... it's the other side of the coin. What is it exactly, beyond the homogametic chromosomal arrangement, that makes you so sure that the other gender is supposed to pursue, provide, protect and otherwise make sure that you're able to passively glide through life as the recipient of heroic efforts and generosity... saying what you want, expect, deserve and having it obediently delivered?

 

More and more, I filter for women who are willing to meet half way in the dating-mating game. There are plenty of them out there, but the cues are often quite subtle. On the other hand, there are a huge number of women's profiles that go on and on about what they want, deserve and expect a man to deliver. I pass on those.

 

I dated someone last year who had that mentality, and yes I did pursue, provide and protect to a certain extent. But her expectations were far beyond what I have either the capacity or inclination to deliver... and what did I get for the effort? Pussy. That's it. No real appreciation and very little genuine affection. She admitted after many months that she had been diagnosed as narcissistic. Suffice it to say that reciprocity was not part of her repertoire. Not doing that again.

 

This is the 21st century. There is still holdover from the Victorian era, and ya know, if you're a guy who only wants arm candy then by all means play that foolish game. But if you want a real partner in life––reciprocity––look for a modern women who is neither a Victorian era holdover or a 20th century Feminazi type.

 

I love women and I also embrace traditional gender roles in many ways, but just as with men, there are many, many variations on a theme and you have to quit settling for the ones who see it all as a one-way street. That's why men need to pursue... because otherwise you're going to get the dregs by default.

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People are all individuals, so not everyone is comfortable with the gender roles they are expected to play - doesn't mean there is anything wrong with you. This goes both ways, really, as there are women who are also having a hard time with how they are expected to behave according to cultural standards of 'femininity'.

 

There are really just two options: 1) Bite the bullet and make yourself do it anyway, 2) Do what you want and screw what society dictates. Even if it narrows your dating pool significantly, it may be worth it if you feel very strongly about the subject, as the women who are attracted to you are more likely to have compatible views with you. However, people who are okay with their partner not adhering to gender roles are likely to be the same themselves (i.e. these women will probably not do some things that society expects of women), so you need to be able to accept that in them as well.

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I love women and I also embrace traditional gender roles in many ways, but just as with men, there are many, many variations on a theme and you have to quit settling for the ones who see it all as a one-way street. That's why men need to pursue... because otherwise you're going to get the dregs by default.

 

Wait, did you just imply that all of the women who don't need/want to be pursued are 'dregs'? :laugh: Don't you think you're just propagating the same mentality that you are ranting about in that very same post?

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People are all individuals, so not everyone is comfortable with the gender roles they are expected to play - doesn't mean there is anything wrong with you. This goes both ways, really, as there are women who are also having a hard time with how they are expected to behave according to cultural standards of 'femininity'.

 

There are really just two options: 1) Bite the bullet and make yourself do it anyway, 2) Do what you want and screw what society dictates. Even if it narrows your dating pool significantly, it may be worth it if you feel very strongly about the subject, as the women who are attracted to you are more likely to have compatible views with you. However, people who are okay with their partner not adhering to gender roles are likely to be the same themselves (i.e. these women will probably not do some things that society expects of women), so you need to be able to accept that in them as well.

 

This struck a chord with me because hindsight has taught me (2) is a road best not walked if you would like someone to walk with you. I'd go as far as to say it totally eliminates your dating pool completely.

 

Your only hope with 2 is to hope you find someone you connect with on an intellectual level but chances are the rest of "you" wont be desirable enough to attract them.

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This struck a chord with me because hindsight has taught me (2) is a road best not walked if you would like someone to walk with you. I'd go as far as to say it totally eliminates your dating pool completely.

 

Your only hope with 2 is to hope you find someone you connect with on an intellectual level but chances are the rest of "you" wont be desirable enough to attract them.

 

How much hindsight do you have? I've known a few (not many, but they exist) couples where the woman asked the man out. It isn't really my cup of tea personally, but there are certainly at least a few women who enjoy being the initiator.

Edited by Elswyth
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How much hindsight do you have? I've known a few (not many, but they exist) couples where the woman asked the man out. It isn't really my cup of tea personally, but there are certainly at least a few women who enjoy being the initiator.

 

Enough to know most females who initiate are fairly desperate.

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