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Am I with the wrong person?..."political"


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Old 4th February 2017, 10:06 AM   #31
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Does he actually not care or are you assuming he doesn't? (I have no way to judge that)
So when I point out or ask him to help me understand his lack of caring for what's going on, he says that he can't explain it. He's always hated politics, so I don't know if that has something to do with it. When I point out the lack of respect for women, immigrants, etc. that the now president has and I ask him if he thinks that this is okay, he says that he does not think that this is okay. The part that is difficult for me to understand is that he says he doesn't think is okay while at the same time not really caring much, so which one is it? He seems to contradict himself (in my perception at least).
The media has pretty much convinced many people that the only reason someone would have voted for Trump is because they are racist, misogynist, immigrant-hating, uneducated, bottom feeders, from the basket of deplorables (as Hilary called them). Do you really believe that essentially half of all Americans fall into those categories? Some do, no doubt, but half? I just can't believe that myself.
Man, I also did not want to believe that but at this point do kind of believe it. At the very least, Trump voters made a statement that sexism, xenophobia, etc. Are not deal breakers for them. I think some percentage voted out of (economic) desperation and because they liked that he is not a politician and believed that he would help them. But once again, voted for him even after his total lack of respect for all the groups mentioned. The only thing that make me feel a little better it's that it's really 25% given the half of the population that did not vote. If anything, I do think that Trump brought out the worst in a lot of people.
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Old 4th February 2017, 10:35 AM   #32
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Thank you, Ronni I agreed to disagree with some of the commenters above on certain things but also try to be open minded that when I get upset about this, I do come on strong. Like I said before, partly because these issues are so important to me. So that is the part that maybe I could tone down in a conversation with my S.O. But other than that, I agree that a big part of who we choose to be with has to do with similar values. So I disagree when people mentioned that that makes me hypocritical. There is nothting wrong with having certain standards for the person you are with. Anyway... my fiance did not vote for Trump and was never at all sympathetic to him during his campaign. I would not have been able to tolerate that. I do however, find his lack of caring about what is going on right now hard to understand.. But I also don't want to throw away years of a relationship lightly.... whatever happens, there's no doubt that this whole thing has been difficulty and disappointing
I've read this over and over and I didn't see anywhere that anybody said you were a hypocrite (someone who pretends to have beliefs that they really don't). What I have read over and over is that people think you can't mix oil and water. It has nothing to do with your color or your gender or any of that stuff. It's your attitudes.

When I read what you write, it all boils down to one thing. You really dislike the fact that you can't convince him you're right. You would feel SO GOOD if he'd just say, "you're right, how could I have been so blind?" and mean it.

He, conversely, could care less if you're right or not. It is enough for him that he feels HE is right. His happiness does not hinge on convincing you over to his side. Your happiness seems to need exactly that. I imagine that the dynamic is that you keep bringing it up, and he's sick of hearing about it.

That's not about hypocrisy. That's something else - need, control, insecurity, I don't know. Call it whatever you want. The name isn't important, but the part where you want something from him he's not going to give you will never go away, and I can't think of a better recipe for misery for the both of you. Eventually, you'll both resent each other.

I'd have a different opinion if you allowed him to have his own point of view without questioning what kind of person he is, but you don't. It's pretty simple to me.

Isn't that what you came here to ask?

Last edited by mightycpa; 4th February 2017 at 10:37 AM..
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Old 4th February 2017, 10:38 AM   #33
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Man, I also did not want to believe that but at this point do kind of believe it. At the very least, Trump voters made a statement that sexism, xenophobia, etc. Are not deal breakers for them. I think some percentage voted out of (economic) desperation and because they liked that he is not a politician and believed that he would help them. But once again, voted for him even after his total lack of respect for all the groups mentioned. The only thing that make me feel a little better it's that it's really 25% given the half of the population that did not vote. If anything, I do think that Trump brought out the worst in a lot of people.
So by extension do you believe that physical attacks on Trump supporters, the attacks on the first amendment at various college campuses, riots and ensuing property damage, are representative of the feelings of the majority of liberal voters? Again, I don't.

Politics does in fact bring out the worst in people, on both sides of the political spectrum. The trick is to not jump to the conclusion that this somehow represents the beliefs of all people on either side. We really only have two choices in this country (two parties) and if all your beliefs align entirely with one party, consider yourself lucky. This is not the case for most of us.

Anyways, I apoligize if I'm bugging you, not really my intent. This is just exactly the sort of arguments that go on in my house all the time. When done respectfully it can be kinda fun actually.

I wish you luck with your dilemma.
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Old 4th February 2017, 10:51 AM   #34
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Do you really believe that essentially half of all Americans fall into those categories? Some do, no doubt, but half? I just can't believe that myself.
Considerably less than half, but a lot more that are simply tolerant of injustice because they can't stand the thought of a dime of their money being used for social programs in our country or overseas. Basically they vote their pocketbook and that's all the perspective they have, the only thing that matters to them. If a politician says he can crank up an infrastructure program that puts a million people to work temporarily and cut their taxes at the same time, that's their man.
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Old 4th February 2017, 11:22 AM   #35
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If anything, I do think that Trump brought out the worst in a lot of people.
On the other side, he is also bringing out the best in a whole lot of people...and awakening others to start putting forth their best, too. (Uber users, now-former Tom Brady supporters, etc.) It doesn't matter the vehicle through which people are brought up higher -- only that they are.
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When I read what you write, it all boils down to one thing. You really dislike the fact that you can't convince him you're right. You would feel SO GOOD if he'd just say, "you're right, how could I have been so blind?" and mean it.
This is only one interpretation -- or perhaps a projection. I didn't get that message at all; in fact, I read what the OP has written as being about the contrary.

On the other side, there has been a lot of trying to convince the OP that THIS is the 'right' version of what is in her own head and what she's actually struggling with,
and that she is now 'wrong' about it.

"God rest ye, merry gentlemen..."
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Old 4th February 2017, 11:42 AM   #36
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I've read this over and over and I didn't see anywhere that anybody said you were a hypocrite (someone who pretends to have beliefs that they really don't). What I have read over and over is that people think you can't mix oil and water. It has nothing to do with your color or your gender or any of that stuff. It's your attitudes.

When I read what you write, it all boils down to one thing. You really dislike the fact that you can't convince him you're right. You would feel SO GOOD if he'd just say, "you're right, how could I have been so blind?" and mean it.

He, conversely, could care less if you're right or not. It is enough for him that he feels HE is right. His happiness does not hinge on convincing you over to his side. Your happiness seems to need exactly that. I imagine that the dynamic is that you keep bringing it up, and he's sick of hearing about it.

That's not about hypocrisy. That's something else - need, control, insecurity, I don't know. Call it whatever you want. The name isn't important, but the part where you want something from him he's not going to give you will never go away, and I can't think of a better recipe for misery for the both of you. Eventually, you'll both resent each other.

I'd have a different opinion if you allowed him to have his own point of view without questioning what kind of person he is, but you don't. It's pretty simple to me.

Isn't that what you came here to ask?
"As am I. And to me, that liberal set of values includes tolerance for the beliefs of others and their right to express them. Can't have it both ways.." Comments like that is what I was referring to. People are free to express their thoughts, but that doesn't mean I won't have an opinion about that. Anyway, he and I disagree all the time about a lot of things and that is not the problem. As I also mentioned, to me this is different due to the misogyny, racism, etc that has been so prevalent in this election. It's not about me just wanting to be right. It's about values. .
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Old 4th February 2017, 12:01 PM   #37
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Anyway, he and I disagree all the time about a lot of things and that is not the problem. As I also mentioned, to me this is different due to the misogyny, racism, etc that has been so prevalent in this election. It's not about me just wanting to be right. It's about values. .
ConfusedAF,
I think it's okay to stop worrying about it or defending your position.

There seems to be some confusion about trying to help other people to raise their own consciousness or get a higher vision -- become less blind and ignorant, in other words. This is part of what we ought to be doing.
Of course, this is different and a far cry from trying to somehow force your own values, beliefs and ideals and ideology on others, and make theirs 'wrong' and yours 'right'; and nowhere have you shown any desire or inclination to do that.

You have been quite clear, from the start, what the true issue is -- how others are going to interpret that, however, will come out of their own level of consciousness and psychology.

Have a great Saturday!
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Old 4th February 2017, 12:02 PM   #38
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So by extension do you believe that physical attacks on Trump supporters, the attacks on the first amendment at various college campuses, riots and ensuing property damage, are representative of the feelings of the majority of liberal voters? Again, I don't.

Politics does in fact bring out the worst in people, on both sides of the political spectrum. The trick is to not jump to the conclusion that this somehow represents the beliefs of all people on either side. We really only have two choices in this country (two parties) and if all your beliefs align entirely with one party, consider yourself lucky. This is not the case for most of us.

Anyways, I apoligize if I'm bugging you, not really my intent. This is just exactly the sort of arguments that go on in my house all the time. When done respectfully it can be kinda fun actually.

I wish you luck with your dilemma.
You are not bugging me of course there are people on both sides that take it to extremes and violence should never be condoned or tolerated. I think that a big art of the difference is that with T, you had a candidate that promoted bullying and intolerance. And hate speech was coming out of his own mouth.i think this gave a lot of people permission to be racist, etc.
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Old 4th February 2017, 12:06 PM   #39
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ConfusedAF,
I think it's okay to stop worrying about it or defending your position.

There seems to be some confusion about trying to help other people to raise their own consciousness or get a higher vision -- become less blind and ignorant, in other words. This is part of what we ought to be doing.
Of course, this is different and a far cry from trying to somehow force your own values, beliefs and ideals and ideology on others, and make theirs 'wrong' and yours 'right'; and nowhere have you shown any desire or inclination to do that.

You have been quite clear, from the start, what the true issue is -- how others are going to interpret that, however, will come out of their own level of consciousness and psychology.

Have a great Saturday!
Thanks again, Ronni! I really speciation your words. I consider it part of my identity and duty to stand up for what I believe in. So I could not imagine not doing so in my own relationship. Have a great weekend as well!
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Old 4th February 2017, 12:12 PM   #40
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He might feel as I do that Trump sucks but we are stuck him now. All the. protesting in the e world does no good if we can't win elections outside of the usual liberal enclaves. It's not that I don't care but I saw it coming and if it weren't him it would he another us against them kind of figure.
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Old 4th February 2017, 12:34 PM   #41
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I do however, find his lack of caring about what is going on right now hard to understand.. But I also don't want to throw away years of a relationship lightly.... whatever happens, there's no doubt that this whole thing has been difficulty and disappointing
That's really the crux of resolving the issue.

I get how difficult it is to try to understand - and accept - where other people are in their level of consciousness, as far as Wisdom, Love, Truth, Justice and Compassion.
And, our own understanding and acceptance are, of course, directly related to and dependent upon the level of those qualities that we ourselves have already attained.

When we get to a certain point, then anything below the corresponding point on the other side of the spectrum becomes not only unfathomable but personally intolerable.
And, this is really what needs to be determined. The opposing views are not the problem -- as you have said. It's the distance between the two points, and the potential for it to become narrower...or greater.

Again, though, how you perceive that potential will necessarily be according to the point at which you presently are on, in this particular spectrum.

It ain't no easy task, dear lady, but do 100% trust your own instincts.

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Old 4th February 2017, 5:33 PM   #42
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That's really the crux of resolving the issue.

I get how difficult it is to try to understand - and accept - where other people are in their level of consciousness, as far as Wisdom, Love, Truth, Justice and Compassion.
And, our own understanding and acceptance are, of course, directly related to and dependent upon the level of those qualities that we ourselves have already attained.

When we get to a certain point, then anything below the corresponding point on the other side of the spectrum becomes not only unfathomable but personally intolerable.
And, this is really what needs to be determined. The opposing views are not the problem -- as you have said. It's the distance between the two points, and the potential for it to become narrower...or greater.

Again, though, how you perceive that potential will necessarily be according to the point at which you presently are on, in this particular spectrum.

It ain't no easy task, dear lady, but do 100% trust your own instincts.
Wise words. I will keep them in mind. Thanks again!
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Old 4th February 2017, 5:35 PM   #43
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He might feel as I do that Trump sucks but we are stuck him now. All the. protesting in the e world does no good if we can't win elections outside of the usual liberal enclaves. It's not that I don't care but I saw it coming and if it weren't him it would he another us against them kind of figure.
Maybe. But if he told me that I would understand it more. He has a hard time explaining where he is coming from. I mean he hates government in general. So I think it's more along those lines.
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Old 5th February 2017, 4:56 PM   #44
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"As am I. And to me, that liberal set of values includes tolerance for the beliefs of others and their right to express them. Can't have it both ways.." Comments like that is what I was referring to.
You have to admit, it's a fair point. But by pulling it out into the light, you've helped me frame the question you're asking a little better,, and actually, maybe you are a hypocrite.We'll explore that idea in a little bit. I also have another way of looking at for you, below.
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People are free to express their thoughts, but that doesn't mean I won't have an opinion about that. Anyway, he and I disagree all the time about a lot of things and that is not the problem.
I imagine this must be true.
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As I also mentioned, to me this is different due to the misogyny, racism, etc that has been so prevalent in this election. It's not about me just wanting to be right. It's about values. .
One way of thinking about this is that maybe it's too much for you. What I mean is that if it was just indifference to misogyny or just indifference to racism or just indifference to etc, then you could put up with it and you wouldn't care. But maybe it is the totality of it, that when you pile one thing on top of another, it points to a mindset that you can't stand the thought of being involved with. Straw that broke the camel's back kind of thing. Before, you saw only the trees, but now you're getting a look at the forest. Like that, just too much for you to stomach. The trouble with this is that you don't really know when he crossed the line. Was it one thing ago? Ten? One hundred? You don't know when you reached your assessment, and that's what is making your decision difficult. It really isn't, but you are understandably reluctant to make the right decision.

If so, let's take a different tack to . If I understand what you're saying, misogyny and racism and etc are lines in the sand. They are like murder without cause. These are things so universally wrong and so egregious that they cannot be ignored. To tolerate them is the same thing as supporting them. You can't not take a side. Do you agree with this proposition?

This is the question that you must answer first. If you're not sure, then you have to become sure first. This is not about your BF. It's about your standards. You have to be able to articulate your standards first. Given that you're thinking about your BF, it may not be easy to tell yourself the truth about this. Your principles may be challenged by your emotions, and they may yield to your emotions for now. Be wary of this.

If you don't agree with this proposition I've laid out, if you think that someone can live in this world without worrying about these things, no matter how odious they are to you, then, yeah, I guess in his case, you are a hypocrite on the proposition that people are free to believe whatever they want. The problem, then, is as I've stated before. You just want to be right. He is generally entitled to his opinions, but because you find these in particular to be so distasteful, your tolerance for people with other ideas has found their limits, at least for him.

If you can't let go of that, you need to let go of him, not because of his values, but because of yours. He does not support things you hold dear, and there is a better than even potential he'll ask you to compromise on these principles at some time in the future, because he will need you to be tolerant of people who think like he does. It might be his friend, his family, his boss or his biggest client. It will be somebody. Otherwise, if you truly can let it go, only then do you have a chance.

But if your answer is yes, that one must take a stand on these issues, and by not taking a stand, one is by definition taking the wrong stand, then we easily follow that to its logical conclusion: Your BF IS a misogynist and a racist and who knows what else by default.

In this case, the hypocrisy would be to carve out an exception for him, because you can't tolerate what you don't tolerate.

Maybe looking at it in these two ways would help you.
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Old 5th February 2017, 7:15 PM   #45
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Mightycpa, you are one of my all-time favorite people on these boards and are as wise as the day is long, so your take on this has really surprised me. The OP is wondering whether she can date someone who doesn't share her values, who has repeatedly been dismissive of issues she cares about, and who upholds a philosophy she ultimately doesn't agree with. Those are good questions to ask. But rather than address her concerns you set up strawmen that portray the OP as a complete radical nutjob. Per your assertions if she doesn't like his opinions then she must be judging him as a person, she's obviously intolerant and a hypocrite, she must think everyone who disagrees with her is racist and misogynistic and her boyfriend deserves better. Or something.

Just two examples:

Quote:
If I understand what you're saying, misogyny and racism and etc are lines in the sand. They are like murder without cause. These are things so universally wrong and so egregious that they cannot be ignored. To tolerate them is the same thing as supporting them. You can't not take a side. Do you agree with this proposition?
No right-thinking person would agree with this proposition, because it is insane. Misogyny and racism are not even remotely like murder. Misogyny and racism are complex evils that arose out of millennia of societal norms, cultural traditions, gender roles, and so on. Everyone perpetuates some degree of misogyny and racism, and we live within a system that promotes them to some way. They are concepts to be recognized and mitigated. They are not singular actions.

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But if your answer is yes, that one must take a stand on these issues, and by not taking a stand, one is by definition taking the wrong stand, then we easily follow that to its logical conclusion: Your BF IS a misogynist and a racist and who knows what else by default.
Bzuh? That is the polar opposite of logical. Not choosing something is not by definition the wrong choice. In this (already farfetched) example I think we'd agree that someone who actively opposed feminism would be a much worse position than someone who simply didn't protest for feminist causes. In this case, the OP's boyfriend doesn't seem to support feminist causes. It does not at all follow that he is a racist or misogynist, because not supporting something does not mean opposing it. Literally no one has said that in this thread except for you.

For some reason you are trying to paint the OP as an insufferable Social Justice 101 Tumblr-posting shrieking harpy and deconstructing that instead of talking to the very real person here. Being disappointed by her partner's reaction to current events does not mean she doesn't support free expression or different opinions. The point about how she might be so dangerously intolerant as to cause some kind of scene with a business partner or boss is beyond absurd. Once again there is no evidence anywhere that the OP can't get along with someone who thinks differently than she does, but you are implying she clearly can't handle it.

I welcome a broad spectrum of opinions, but that doesn't mean I welcome all of them in my potential life partners. There is a difference between a healthy exchange of ideals or making polite conversation at a cocktail party and spending the rest of your life with someone. If my fiancÚ woke up tomorrow and said "honey, I don't believe in climate change and I really think abortion ought to be outlawed", that would be the end for us.

Healthy relationships are about shared values, especially the ones we hold most dear. Why should political values be exempt?
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