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Am I with the wrong person?..."political"


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Old 3rd February 2017, 3:50 PM   #16
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It really depends on what his views are. As a super liberal person myself, I am not going to "get over" the normalization of hatred towards ethnic minorities, the dismissal of women's health and reproductive rights, the subjugation of the Constitution to special interest groups with deep pockets, the mind-blowing conflicts of interest, or the monstrous people that have been nominated to Cabinet posts. I'm not sitting around and whining either; I've been actively protesting and identifying campaigns for action. You have options.

The problem with libertarians is they are almost uniformly upper middle class white guys with no awareness of opinions outside their own, and they believe anything bad that happens to someone is their own fault. They also tend to be very egotistical, with a lot of admiration for their own success. The noxious "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" principle is a farce and doesn't take into account any kind of systemic prejudice. I have known a lot of black and Hispanic people from poor backgrounds and they find the very idea of libertarians mystifying.

(And never mind Ayn Rand, who wailed constantly about not being as strong as her fictional characters. She was a hypocrite and a failure to say the least.)

I dated a self-described libertarian for a while. He seemed okay, but then he started saying things like "well, maybe some groups are genetically on average more athletic or less intelligent---that's just science" and I had to call it quits. The superiority element of libertarianism can frequently lead to that kind of racial garbage and it's intolerable.

Can you have a future with this person? I don't know. Politically divided couples are nothing new, but divisions aren't as mild as they used to be. I think you need to share some fundamental values if you're going to make it work. You also need to share or at least respect each other's passions, and that includes supporting causes the other partner cares about. Politics or no, anyone who's dismissive about something you love may not be a good fit in the long run. Think long and hard about this and brace yourself for some tough conversations.
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Old 3rd February 2017, 4:31 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by lana-banana View Post
It really depends on what his views are. As a super liberal person myself, I am not going to "get over" the normalization of hatred towards ethnic minorities, the dismissal of women's health and reproductive rights, the subjugation of the Constitution to special interest groups with deep pockets, the mind-blowing conflicts of interest, or the monstrous people that have been nominated to Cabinet posts. I'm not sitting around and whining either; I've been actively protesting and identifying campaigns for action. You have options.

Thank you for this. Lana-Banana. That is exactly how I feel and that's why it's so hard. I can't just "get over" mysogyny, racism, classism, etc...

The problem with libertarians is they are almost uniformly upper middle class white guys with no awareness of opinions outside their own, and they believe anything bad that happens to someone is their own fault. They also tend to be very egotistical, with a lot of admiration for their own success. The noxious "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" principle is a farce and doesn't take into account any kind of systemic prejudice. I have known a lot of black and Hispanic people from poor backgrounds and they find the very idea of libertarians mystifying.

Yes. I agree with this, I mean part of what bothers me is that his views seem a bit selfish. I am not saying he is a bad person or anything, but I do think there's a bit of a lack of empathy or understanding. When I bring up "White-Privilege" and how it's easy for him to sit it all out because he would be the last one affected, he sees this as an attack.

(And never mind Ayn Rand, who wailed constantly about not being as strong as her fictional characters. She was a hypocrite and a failure to say the least.)

I dated a self-described libertarian for a while. He seemed okay, but then he started saying things like "well, maybe some groups are genetically on average more athletic or less intelligent---that's just science" and I had to call it quits. The superiority element of libertarianism can frequently lead to that kind of racial garbage and it's intolerable.

I did not think at all that he was racist or anything like that, but his "neutral" stance on building a wall has me questioning if there is a bit of internalized racism...He denies this.

Can you have a future with this person? I don't know. Politically divided couples are nothing new, but divisions aren't as mild as they used to be. I think you need to share some fundamental values if you're going to make it work. You also need to share or at least respect each other's passions, and that includes supporting causes the other partner cares about. Politics or no, anyone who's dismissive about something you love may not be a good fit in the long run. Think long and hard about this and brace yourself for some tough conversations.
This is why this has been so upsetting. We've never agreed on politic and I am okay with that to some extent but this election has brought it to a whole new level. When I share my feelings he just keeps saying that he does not see how he is being dismissive no matter how I try to explain it.....Ugh. Thanks again for your thoughts!
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Old 3rd February 2017, 4:33 PM   #18
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I notice that in the way you describe it, he's not dismissive of you, but he's dismissive of your ideas.

Quote:
Originally Posted by him
some of them being that people should just get over Trump being president , that people are just upset over the fact that he is not a "career politician" , and that people should stop protesting (which he later took back and said people should do whatever they want but he just doesn't see the point in it). Among other things, he said that he is neutral on the topic of the wall, that he doesn't see the point of it but government always spends money on all sorts of things...blah blah you get the point.
But you, you're judging him, not his ideas.

Quote:
This makes me question the kind of person he is
You don't deserve this guy, nor are you well suited for him. Let me explain why. There's an old saying:

The lowest form of communication among people is when they talk about other people.
The middle form of communication among people is when they talk about things.
The highest form of communication among people is when they talk about ideas.

Look at what he's worried about, people's ideas. Now look at what you're worried about; his worth as a person.

Whether the old saying is fair or not, and even if you make talking about people the highest form of communication, it exposes something undeniable about the two of you. You're simply not on the same level as he. So let him go, you'll be doing both of you a huge favor. Find a like-minded guy who will pass judgment on the worth of others based on the things they believe. Only then will you get the life you so richly deserve.

Last edited by mightycpa; 3rd February 2017 at 4:42 PM..
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Old 3rd February 2017, 5:04 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by mightycpa View Post
I notice that in the way you describe it, he's not dismissive of you, but he's dismissive of your ideas.



But you, you're judging him, not his ideas.
I appreciate you pointing this out, and I agree that I can come off as judgemental when it comes to taking about these topics, partly because I'm passionate about issues of equality, women's rights, etc.
You don't deserve this guy, nor are you well suited for him. Let me explain why. There's an old saying:

The lowest form of communication among people is when they talk about other people.
The middle form of communication among people is when they talk about things.
The highest form of communication among people is when they talk about ideas.

Look at what he's worried about, people's ideas. Now look at what you're worried about; his worth as a person.

Whether the old saying is fair or not, and even if you make talking about people the highest form of communication, it exposes something undeniable about the two of you. You're simply not on the same level as he. So let him go, you'll be doing both of you a huge favor. Find a like-minded guy who will pass judgment on the worth of others based on the things they believe. Only then will you get the life you so richly deserve.
.

So you certainly have the right to your opinion but to jump and say that he is somehow more worthy and I am not deserving of him...well that I'm not going to agree with. I also think the stakes are higher for certain people. As a minority and a woman, I don't think I have the luxury of not caring.
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Old 3rd February 2017, 8:56 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConfusedAF View Post
.

So you certainly have the right to your opinion but to jump and say that he is somehow more worthy and I am not deserving of him...well that I'm not going to agree with. I also think the stakes are higher for certain people. As a minority and a woman, I don't think I have the luxury of not caring.
Oooh, see, I knew you'd say that.. because you're judging me.

But turn it around... say you deserved better than him. Now re-read my comment. It sounds like I'm on your side, doesn't it?

Quote:
You don't deserve...
meaning you deserve better.

Quote:
the life you so richly deserve
Need I say more?

The difference is your disposition.
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Old 3rd February 2017, 9:45 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by mightycpa View Post
Oooh, see, I knew you'd say that.. because you're judging me.

But turn it around... say you deserved better than him. Now re-read my comment. It sounds like I'm on your side, doesn't it?

meaning you deserve better.

Need I say more?

The difference is your disposition.
Nope. sounds the same. And like I said, you have the right to your opinion.
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Old 3rd February 2017, 10:09 PM   #22
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Aww, let me rephrase:

Quote:
You don't deserve someone who would treat you that badly! You deserve better! Get rid of him!
Quote:
You can have the life that you always wanted! You can have the life you so richly deserve! You'll never get it with this a-hole!
If you still think it's me, then it's not me. It's you, and you know your part in it.

Either way, the same advice applies. Find someone who agrees with you.
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Old 3rd February 2017, 10:11 PM   #23
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ConfusedAF, maybe you could reread mightycpa's comments and think about them a bit...

My wife an I are very dismissive of each others ideas (me of hers because, well, she's wrong, and her of mine because, well, she's wrong... ..lol..), but never of each other as a person. We could not have lasted this long otherwise.
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Old 3rd February 2017, 10:31 PM   #24
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Thank you all for your comments. I will reflect on my part of it.
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Old 4th February 2017, 12:23 AM   #25
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Thank you all for your comments. I will reflect on my part of it.
ConfusedAF,
I didn't see any point at which you were negatively judging or condemning anyone for their beliefs, thoughts or feelings.

You have the absolute right to determine what type of person you want to be with, and to base that on whatever criteria you choose.
Everybody is doing this type of discernment all the time -- I don't hang out with drug-dealers or pedophiles because of their values, ideology and/or behaviour.
I don't hang out with neo-Nazis for the same reason. There's nothing that I need to reflect on, about this.

If people don't use people's personal values and inner qualities to choose their partners and friends, how do they do it? Looks and money???

Hugs, ConfusedAF.
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Old 4th February 2017, 4:57 AM   #26
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You have your views and he has his and I doubt anybody is going to change the other's mind because both of you sincerely believe they are right. If you can't agree to disagree then this relationship won't work.
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Old 4th February 2017, 6:52 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by WaitingForBardot View Post
30+ years canceling out each others votes and counting!

It does get heated from time to time, but enough said... ..lol..


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Originally Posted by ConfusedAF View Post
Haha. Thanks Good to hear you are going strong after 30 years!
My MIL is a Secular Humanist and is quite liberal.

My FIL is a weekly Mass attending Catholic who is conservative.

They have been happily married nearly 60 years.
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Old 4th February 2017, 7:09 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by lana-banana View Post
It really depends on what his views are. As a super liberal person myself, I am not going to "get over" the normalization of hatred towards ethnic minorities, the dismissal of women's health and reproductive rights, the subjugation of the Constitution to special interest groups with deep pockets, the mind-blowing conflicts of interest, or the monstrous people that have been nominated to Cabinet posts. I'm not sitting around and whining either; I've been actively protesting and identifying campaigns for action. You have options.

The problem with libertarians is they are almost uniformly upper middle class white guys with no awareness of opinions outside their own, and they believe anything bad that happens to someone is their own fault. They also tend to be very egotistical, with a lot of admiration for their own success. The noxious "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" principle is a farce and doesn't take into account any kind of systemic prejudice. I have known a lot of black and Hispanic people from poor backgrounds and they find the very idea of libertarians mystifying.

(And never mind Ayn Rand, who wailed constantly about not being as strong as her fictional characters. She was a hypocrite and a failure to say the least.)

I dated a self-described libertarian for a while. He seemed okay, but then he started saying things like "well, maybe some groups are genetically on average more athletic or less intelligent---that's just science" and I had to call it quits. The superiority element of libertarianism can frequently lead to that kind of racial garbage and it's intolerable.

Can you have a future with this person? I don't know. Politically divided couples are nothing new, but divisions aren't as mild as they used to be. I think you need to share some fundamental values if you're going to make it work. You also need to share or at least respect each other's passions, and that includes supporting causes the other partner cares about. Politics or no, anyone who's dismissive about something you love may not be a good fit in the long run. Think long and hard about this and brace yourself for some tough conversations.

I am a liberal and I can't see even trying to get cozy with a Trumpeteer. The whole mess is repulsive, and if I were trying to date someone like that the disdain would be perpetually palatable. Also, I would not be okay with avoiding a wide range of highly relevant topics to keep peace. It would be an uncomfortable peace at best. I can agree to disagree on a lot of things, but ignorance-bigotry-misogony-hatred ain't among them.

On the subjects of genetics... this is a factual thing, not a moral-ethical issue. There are genetic differences in various ethnic groups. It's pretty naive to think that if various groups have different skin and color, and are more or less prone to certain diseases, that genetics are perfectly equal in other aspects of biology. We have learned how to breed dogs and animals to have a whole range of specific traits, temperaments, and types of intelligences. Why do people insist on denying that certain kinds of differences don't exist in humans? We know that Ashkenazi Jews are fifteen percent more intelligent on average than the overall population, so faced with such facts, how can anyone deny that there is some genetic variation in humans that goes beyond skin color? Of course that doesn't give them additional rights or status or make them better, it just is what it is. Liberals are all over Trumpeteers for denying science in the realm of environmental stuff, but the backlash against Herrnstein and Murray, authors of The Bell Curve has been relentless based on not being PC.

Last edited by salparadise; 4th February 2017 at 9:19 AM..
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Old 4th February 2017, 9:37 AM   #29
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ConfusedAF,
I didn't see any point at which you were negatively judging or condemning anyone for their beliefs, thoughts or feelings.

You have the absolute right to determine what type of person you want to be with, and to base that on whatever criteria you choose.
Everybody is doing this type of discernment all the time -- I don't hang out with drug-dealers or pedophiles because of their values, ideology and/or behaviour.
I don't hang out with neo-Nazis for the same reason. There's nothing that I need to reflect on, about this.

If people don't use people's personal values and inner qualities to choose their partners and friends, how do they do it? Looks and money???

Hugs, ConfusedAF.
Thank you, Ronni I agreed to disagree with some of the commenters above on certain things but also try to be open minded that when I get upset about this, I do come on strong. Like I said before, partly because these issues are so important to me. So that is the part that maybe I could tone down in a conversation with my S.O. But other than that, I agree that a big part of who we choose to be with has to do with similar values. So I disagree when people mentioned that that makes me hypocritical. There is nothting wrong with having certain standards for the person you are with. Anyway... my fiance did not vote for Trump and was never at all sympathetic to him during his campaign. I would not have been able to tolerate that. I do however, find his lack of caring about what is going on right now hard to understand.. But I also don't want to throw away years of a relationship lightly.... whatever happens, there's no doubt that this whole thing has been difficulty and disappointing
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Old 4th February 2017, 9:49 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by ConfusedAF View Post
Thank you, Ronni I agreed to disagree with some of the commenters above on certain things but also try to be open minded that when I get upset about this, I do come on strong. Like I said before, partly because these issues are so important to me. So that is the part that maybe I could tone down in a conversation with my S.O. But other than that, I agree that a big part of who we choose to be with has to do with similar values. So I disagree when people mentioned that that makes me hypocritical. There is nothting wrong with having certain standards for the person you are with. Anyway... my fiance did not vote for Trump and was never at all sympathetic to him during his campaign. I would not have been able to tolerate that. I do however, find his lack of caring about what is going on right now hard to understand.. But I also don't want to throw away years of a relationship lightly.... whatever happens, there's no doubt that this whole thing has been difficulty and disappointing
Does he actually not care or are you assuming he doesn't? (I have no way to judge that)

The media has pretty much convinced many people that the only reason someone would have voted for Trump is because they are racist, misogynist, immigrant-hating, uneducated, bottom feeders, from the basket of deplorables (as Hilary called them). Do you really believe that essentially half of all Americans fall into those categories? Some do, no doubt, but half? I just can't believe that myself.
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