Quite a mess... at least I think it is

[The man who knew too much]

I've put myself in quite a bind, or so it seems to me. I'm hoping some people on this forum could offer their perspective, as:

 

1) My emotions are heavily involved and it's hard to know if I'm being rational

 

2) I've over-analyzed this so much that I no longer know good from bad, or up from down for that matter.

 

Alrighty then! I'll provide some explanation.

 

I've had strong feelings for a good female friend of mine for some time. Nothing unusual so far. I've known her for over four years, and we have a lot in common. I realized I had feelings for her about a year ago soon after I came off a serious relationship. She's intelligent, extraordinarily nice, has a huge range of interests very compatible with my own, and is very attractive to boot. In short, she's someone I would have fallen for long ago, but when I first met her she soon began seeing a friend of mine (for almost two years), and after that I was seeing someone myself. I never seriously thought of her in a more-than-friendly way until a year ago, but when I did I couldn't believe it hadn't occurred to me before.

 

I didn't tell her about my feelings for some time. There are a few reasons for this, some of them good. For example, I was on quite a rebound after my last relationship, and wasn't sure if my heart hadn't latched on to her in my wounded state simply because she was so wonderfully nice (which may sound weird to many of you, but the rest will know what I mean). Mostly I delayed because I was scared she might say no -- somehow the thought of being rejected was much worse when coming from a good friend.

 

As often happens when someone delays like that, I missed my best chance, and here's where it begins to get weird. I found out she and her ex-boyfriend (the one who's also a friend of mine) were going to try dating again, which he wanted to keep secret from everyone (more on this later). I found this out from her roomate, who knew I had feelings for this girl and wanted to keep me from embarassing myself because of my ignorance.

 

This news hurt, not least because I knew I only had myself to blame for my delay. It also motivated me to finally tell her something. I thought she might not want to hear it, given that she was seeing someone else, but I could no longer stand the thought of her not knowing anything.

 

She told me she only saw me as a friend, which came as no huge surprise. However, that hasn't been enough for me to let go, and that's why I'm in a mess.

 

As I mentioned previously, this guy she's seeing now is someone I've been friends with for a long time. However, the whole time I've been friends with him I've never respected him -- I know few people who do, in fact. Does that sound strange? He's a fun guy to hang out with, but he's selfish and insensitive, and always puts his own interests first in any situation. A clear example of that is how he treated this girl when they dated the first time. He was unfaithful to her with at least two women that I know of (but she doesn't know of this), he didn't like spending time with her and in fact almost never went on a proper date (i.e. just the two of them) in the nearly two YEARS that they were seeing each other. He was just lazy and selfish in general. This may sound utterly amazing, like I'm clearly making this up, but I'm not. The fact that she put up with this (though she didn't know about the cheating part) illustrates an important part of her personality, namely how patient and tolerant and trusting she is... and also how gullible. She's one of those people who thinks that no one else "knows him like she does", and "he's really a good person on the inside, he just doesn't like public displays of affection" etc. etc. Basically, she's such a nice girl that it doesn't occur to her people could be that bad outside of the movies, and she doesn't really look for the warning signs (like a boyfriend who wants to keep their relationship a secret, which usually means he wants to secretly see other people too, like in this case). I can't entirely blame her, because he does very well at keeping his worst transgressions (like cheating) hidden from her. He's quite a good person to have around as a friend, believe it or not (though he wouldn't lift a finger to help anyone other than himself), so maybe that's another reason she has trouble seeing what he's really like. He doesn't hit her or swear at her... he just doesn't put out ANY effort in their relationship (and cheats on her).

 

Like I said, she doesn't seem willing to admit she's hung her hat on the wrong peg, and that sort of denial is a common way of looking at these broken relationships, even for women who are otherwise very intelligent. Even a confused guy such as myself can see this. The fact she was willing to begin seeing him again was such an unexpected shock that I literally burst into tears (thankfully in the privacy of my own home). Most of our other friends don't know about it (they're seeing each other secretly, if you recall), but the ones who do are friendly to her face and utterly flabbergasted behind her back. I very much regret not speaking up about his behaviour when he was dating her the first time, but I thought it was none of my business and she could make her own choices (I didn't find out about his cheating until after they had broken up). Now holding back like that has come around and bitten me in the ass, because she may think anything I say now is just me being spiteful. Then again, she might not. I don't want to show one opinion to her face and another behind her back. I want to tell her the truth, though the truth may hurt.

 

I really would like to tell her some of the things this fellow did to her that she doesn't know about, because sure enough he's up to his old tricks again. Obviously I consider myself a better alternative, as does everyone else who knows about this... but even if she's not interested in me at all I would like to help her as a friend. I'm feeling all the pain and outrage that she SHOULD be feeling, and it's ruining my life. That's not healthy at all, and I have to get out of this mindset somehow.

 

There was a time when I would have worried about backstabbing this friend of mine, but I can't really feel that way any longer, because to do nothing means backstabbing HER. I have to betray one of them no matter what I do, and it might as well be the one who deserves it. In other respects he's perfectly pleasant, except for being lazy and not lifting a finger to help others -- but when it comes to relationships he's just awful.

 

Thanks for reading this posting. Long as it is, I feel I've still managed to garble the story. I hope some of you can provide some input.

 

Thanks

[Tony T]

Stay out of her business and her relationship...I mean way, way out. Now that you've told her how you feel, she can no longer depend on you for dispassionate or unbiased opinions about the men she is seeing and anything you say about this guy will be taken as sour grapes.

 

She has very clearly told you she thinks of you as a good friend. Listen to that, understand that, and digest that. I have been exactly where you are no less than TEN (10) or maybe FIFTEEN (15) times in my life and I know each and every one of the females who told me they wanted only friendship meant it. No exceptions. In retrospect, I was much better off preserving good friendships than having all contact destroyed.

 

Now, you may have an opportunity in the future of getting into her life in a romantic way but you'll have to wait until she is ready...if she ever is. There is only less that a 2 percent chance of that happening.

 

If you want to do yourself the most major favor you could ever possibly do...and keep the door open for something to happen between you and your friend in the future...butt out of this whole thing and make yourself a little scarse. Yes, I know you love to be around her but it's insane to be around someone you're in love with while they are pursuing other men. It's downright crazy as hell.

 

Stay her friend but diminish the contact substantially. If anything is ever to happen between the two of you, she has to think of you differently. If you just hang around like a puppy dog she will never think of you as anything more than a buddy.

 

The best thing you could possibly do is stop caring so much about her, fall out of love with her, start thinking of her as a platonic friend, and seek out women with whom you can make passionate love and have great romance. When you really get something good going away from your friend...that's about the time she'll become interested in you.

 

I speak from incredible experience. I have the bumper sticker, the T-shirt and all the scars.

 

If you want to destroy your friendship for all time with her, go ahead and start badmouthing her guy. She will resent you all her days on this earth and when she marries him, you won't be invited to the wedding

[midori]

Speaking as a woman, I couldn't agree more with what Tony has said, and for the reasons he has given. I once had a male acquaintance offer sympathy and advice for a short & troubled (and yes, silly) relationship I was entangled in. Maybe I should have seen it coming but I was shocked and outraged when he turned around and asked me out himself (I hadn't even fully ended the silly relationship). Yes, looking back I fully agree that the guy was a jerk and the relationship wasn't going anywhere -- it was in fact a waste of my time. But at the time what I felt was that my so-called friend had been offering spurious advice that was not in the best interests of the relationship I was, however foolishly, trying to preserve. I felt betrayed and I told my would-be suitor to keep away from me.

 

Speaking as a woman who is gullible & too-trusting herself, my advice is, unfortunately, that you'll have to let her discover for herself how awful her ex really is. Right now she's in a hopeful mood: she won't appreciate any naysayers, and more importantly she won't believe them. She cannot benefit from your insight right now, and she'll resent you if you try to share it. She's gotta make her discoveries on her own.

 

If you're right about this guy, she's going to fall on her face. It's going to happen regardless, and she won't appreciate feeling like someone is standing there saying "I told you so." Tony's advice to keep away from her generally for the time being is good. Let her go through what she needs to with the ex. When that's over you could be a welcome change -- whether platonic or romantic -- which you won't be if you're close at hand while she's going through the inevitable with her ex.

[The Man Who Knew Too Much]

That's basically what I was thinking myself, but I've OVER-thought things to such a degree that I was in desperate need of an outside opinion to provide some perspective. Thanks, even though Tony's reply seemed a bit harsh on the first read! I'm sure that was half his point -- I'll have to stop making flowery excuses and elaborate justifications for prolonging my own suffering, and just let it be. It's hard to watch her play through this mistake, but I realize she has to do it herself without intrusions, no matter how good my intentions are.

 

Mostly it's hard because of the frustration involved. I had a wonderful gripe session today with a mutual female friend who assured me she shared all my concerns (possibly more ticked-off than I am), but pretty much repeated what the two of you have said (and what I was thinking anyway), namely that even were I to tell her it wouldn't accomplish anything positive... and might very well cast me as the villain in the process. Like I said, staying silent is frustrating, but just having that gripe session made me feel somewhat better.

 

Anyway, thanks for listening.