[moimeme]

There is yet another discussion about porn going on. At the heart of it seems to be the inability of women to believe that their men actually do love and desire them.

Why?

Is it only women or do men also feel unloved?

If so, why?

How many 'if you *really* loved me, you would X' conditions do you have all set up for some person to have to meet?

How many actual humans have you met were able to fulfil all your 'if you really loved me, you would X' conditions?
(things which should be obvious like 'not sleep with someone else' don't count)

Do you have a list of 'if you *really* loved me you would X' conditions to hand to any potential mate so they'll know what they're expected to do? A job description of sorts.

Do you ever think that maybe saying 'if you really loved me you would (behave exactly as I think you should behave)' is not necessarily a reasonable way to go about life?

[Samson]

Is it only women or do men also feel unloved?

Surely this is a rhetorical question?

I like the questions, though:

Unconditional vs. Conditional is to

Romantic vs. (Unromantic?)

Does anyone love anyone else 100% of the time, and live on this earth? We're not talking about another world. Interestingly, we have diafied the trait of having unconditional love all the time as if it is only possible among the heavenly host. This leads me to believe it is human to love only part of the time, and therefore we should expect to be loved only part of the time by anyone.

Frankly I have not found anyone who has exceeded these expectations

[moimeme]

Samson quotes moimeme
quote:Is it only women or do men also feel unloved?

and asks
Surely this is a rhetorical question?

yes, but I posed it because I honestly think it doesn't occur to a lot of people that men also have feelings and need love. After all, it's not 'macho'

[johan]

Romantic love can be so possessive and controlling. As opposed to friendship love. I guess it's because romantic love is one-on-one and so idealized. We give up independence when we make someone else responsible for our own happiness.

Sometimes I think it would make things simpler if we could think of our lovers more like we think of our friends. I sometimes go for weeks without talking to friends, and it doesn't change the relationship. We don't really care. But with my girlfriend, going for a few hours can hurt and make us wonder what's wrong. With friends I can choose my lifestyle and do the things I want that make sense to me. With my girlfriend much of what she or I do has to be analyzed for it's implications on us. And if I don't do that analysis or if she doesn't, then we're accused of selfishness. I'm happy with my friends all the time, or else we just don't hang out. It's easy. My girlfriend and I are always negotiating stuff, we sometimes argue, we don't communicate as openly, and we hang out regardless. It's harder.

On the possessive and controlling level, neither of us feels loved all of the time. Sometimes it really hurts and makes us both doubt. On the friendship level, if we could isolate that, we're in great shape. It doesn't take more than a day for me to really start missing her when we're apart. And our expectations and disappointments are forgotten. I just wonder if we could really operate that way. Maybe we'd be a lot happier together if we treated each other like friends instead of possessions. Our expectations would be more reasonable and our disappointments would be a lot fewer.

The other side of the coin: friends come and go. Very few people have friends for life. VERY few people keep friends for a long time when they spend a lot of time with those friends. If you were to pick a friend and agree to be one and only friends for life, then the expectations would go up and probably so would the disappointment and conflict.

Interesting to note that lovers also come and go, and it's unusual to have one for life. It's not like all the expectations and idealism really change anything. Except we just suffer more.

I'm not willing to give up on monogamy. I just wish relationships weren't so heavy. When I was younger it was easier because we didn't have so much momentum in our lives. We conformed to each other better, but that was actually part of the problem.

[moimeme]

But with my girlfriend, going for a few hours can hurt and make us wonder what's wrong. With friends I can choose my lifestyle and do the things I want that make sense to me.

You used the word 'expectations' a number of times and I believe that's the key. We set up the model of our ideal mate, complete with sets of ideal behaviours. Then, when a real mortal who may have numerous excellent qualities fails to meet the standard we've set, we consider that person flawed and undesirable. Now, I'm not talking about something major like alcoholism or abuse. I mean the squeezing the toothpaste wrong sort of thing.

There is, of course, basic consideration. Nobody should allow the other person in his life to be the maid or do carry all the responsibilities in a relationship, but I think fairness is key - and fairness can allow for quite a bit where stringent expectations will not.

[Samson]

Hey, I used forms of the word "expect" twice in my post and still don't feel loved!

That's OK though, being a macho curmudgeon, I'd rather NOT FEEL THE LOVE!

[Thinkalot]

I do feel loved these days, most of the time...LOL! I have had much trouble believing that I was truly loved and desirable and wanted. Self esteem issues I suppose...coupled with expectations being too high, and a tendency to worry and ruminate.

I must say, that since I have started to heal from my OCD that our relationship feels deeper, more calm and whatnot. I mean we still fight and we can still be volatile, yet underneath that is the certainty that the love is real and true...that we really do love each other...warts and all . I no longer think he is going to leave me every time we have a barney.

As for the "if you loved me, you'd do....", well, I have been guilty of that, but with the help of a dear friend, who is also a counsellor, I managed to understand that is not always the case, and that what we expect can sometimes simply be too much...and also that differences between people, does not mean a lack of love, or have to be a threat. Usually, the "if u loved me you'd do....XX" has a flip side, and could be thrown back at us, with a"well if you loved ME, you would not ask me to do ..XX".

I am sensitive, and I like lots of reassurance. Sometimes when my guy is so busy at work, I don't get all that I would like. But rather than doubting his love, I simply try and stand in his shoes for a moment, and offer HIM more love...because at those stressful times I realise he needs it. His appreciation is obvious, and I then feel the love I desire.

It doesn't always work, and I don't always get it right...but when it does, the rewards are many.

[Pyrannaste]

Do I feel loved? no.
Do i believe I am loved? Yes, or at least I was until a couple of weeks ago.
Wait, again, I'm not sure.

[quote]Originally posted by moimeme

How many 'if you *really* loved me, you would X' conditions do you have all set up for some person to have to meet?

Very many.

How many actual humans have you met were able to fulfil all your 'if you really loved me, you would X' conditions?

All but very few ones.

(things which should be obvious like 'not sleep with someone else' don't count)

This is the real big problem: some things are obvious to some people and unreasonably silly to others.

what about getting naked in front of friends of the opposite sex?
kisses on lips to friends?
having sex with someone who is a different sex (male/female) from your partner?

To some people it is *obvious* that their partner should not look at porn.
To some people it is obvious that their partners should not have friends of the opposite sex.
To some people it is NOT obvious they can't have sex with other people
"you never told me that it would have been a problem if I had sex with other men than you".

Do you have a list of 'if you *really* loved me you would X' conditions to hand to any potential mate so they'll know what they're expected to do? A job description of sorts.

This is the very first thing I'm going to do in my next relationship.
I learnt that considering anything obvious is a mistake.
Anyway I'm not putting it in the form 'if you *really* loved me you would X', I'm using the "If you want to be with me, you have not to do X, because if you do X I'm going to be hurt and I might actually dump you".
What about "If you do X, even if you love me, I don't feel loved."?
And "if you do X, I might not love you anymore?" (hey, it can happen.)

Do you ever think that maybe saying 'if you really loved me you would (behave exactly as I think you should behave)' is not necessarily a reasonable way to go about life?

Not really.

BTW, men do that so called emotional blackmail too.

[Kat]

I know deep down that he loves me. I just feel second best to society, even though deep down I know I shouldn't

[moimeme]

And "if you do X, I might not love you anymore?" (hey, it can happen.)

I read about couples who have given each other lists of 'deal-breakers'. That way, both are clear on what may or may not be fatal to a relationship. I've also heard of people who make up 'I really hate it when people...' lists for each other so that one won't inadvertently trigger the other's pet peeves. Not a bad idea at all, really.

[Tony]

It's real nice to feel loved but the fact remains that the only person who can make us feel loved is ourselves. To depend on the actions of others for our value is insane. Others will love us sometimes, show it sometimes, ignore us sometimes and even hate us or be indifferent toward us at times.

Feeling loved by others is not nearly as important as feeling loved by ourselves. That's the only love we can depend on. Other's love for us is an ever-changing variable.

I don't think the love other people have for us or for any person has anything to do with their pathological preoccupation with pornography. This is an obsession and dysfunction that goes far beyond loving feelings they may have for another person, in my opinion.

[moimeme]

I don't think the love other people have for us or for any person has anything to do with their pathological preoccupation with pornography. This is an obsession and dysfunction that goes far beyond loving feelings they may have for another person, in my opinion.

So you don't think that if someone really felt loved they would cease fearing that their partner genuinely desires porn people?

It seems these women are all convinced beyond a shadow of doubt that their men prefer the porn ladies to themselves. They call it 'cheating'. To me, believing that someone loves you is incongruous with believing that person would cheat on you - no?

I'm particularly interested in the views of the anti-porn people who do consider it 'cheating'. Try as I might, I can't imagine myself inside that point of view.

["Screw me if I am wrong, but haven't we met before?" ]

[Samson]

Hijacked by porn discussions!

SIGH

[moimeme]

Hijacked by porn discussions!

Samson, if you'll read my original post, my questions were sparked by my attempt to get to the bottom of this porn issue. To reiterate:

Do you feel loved? Do you believe you are loved?

There is yet another discussion about porn going on. At the heart of it seems to be the inability of women to believe that their men actually do love and desire them.

And it's wrapped up, too, with the idea of conditional love. I added in the question about men feeling loved because I suffer from a nagging, constant impression that women do not think men have feelings i.e. that men are quite capable of love and fidelity.

I want to know if women who are losing it over their men's porn use are doing so because they don't feel loved and don't believe men actually love them. That men weigh in to say they have feelings is helpful, I think.

This is me testing - unscientifically - my theories. I don't like unsolvable problems or not having explanations for stuff. So add in your theories! Can we get to what's really the problem?

[Tony]

"So you don't think that if someone really felt loved they would cease fearing that their partner genuinely desires porn people?"

Speaking ONLY for myself personally, if I was roommates with someone...male or female....who had an addiction to porn that was so acute that I became aware of it I would move out immediately. I would feel very uncomfortable with anyone who had such an addiction and I would not take it personally.

If I were living with a female and learned she had an addiction to porn, I would not relate it to myself personally. Depending on the depth of my feelings for the person, I would either insist on their seeking counselling and support for recovery or I would terminate the relationship. I would do this not because I felt any less attractive or less of a man because someone I loved was so heavily into pornography. I would do it simply because I am very uncomfortable being around people who are obsessed with anything to that extent.

Love would not fit into my decision. If I felt they loved me more than life itself...and the feeling was mutual...if they would not seek treatment they would be history. I would still send them a Christmas Card (with naked reindeer on the front of it).

I do not hang around people just because I love them. I am there because they make me feel special and good. People who are into porn, drugs, other than social drinking, etc., do not make me feel good. I do not even consider people who smoke cigarettes, although I still love them, I don't ask them out and don't get near them for fear of secondary smoke.

I don't depend on other people to make me feel loved. That's a gift I give myself. If I find someone I love genuinely desires porn people, pot, cocaine, Jack Daniels, or any other mind altering substance or activity...either instead of me or in addition to me....they are history not even google will find. I will, however, remember them fondly.