Hi All,
I am new here and posted quite a lengthy post under the thread Fallen Angel a few days ago not realizing I was "threadjacking".
I need help, advice and whatever anyone call tell me to try and make some sense of my situation.
I am 43 (never married, no kids) and he is 58 (married 33 years & no kids). We started seeing each in July- met playing golf- very innocently. Long story short he has been miserable in his M for the last 10-15 years and they have talked divorce but they were both to complacent & lazy to follow through.
He claims I have helped him to see life in a different light and feels passion with me that he never felt with her even when the were first married.
If you are the MM (with no kids and married for a long time 25-30+ years) did you leave your M? He has told me that they both "checked out" long before I came along. I am not harboring any guilt about if they divorce that it will be because of me- because it won't be. I may be the peson that got the ball rolling but I refuse to take on that. Of course I know I'm part of it- but it does take 2 people to make a marriage fail.
The W does nothing with him. I mean nothing. Shes not active and they are basically ships that pass in the night. They go for days not speaking and lead pretty separate lives. He says it awful that he has everything in life except for the emotional attachment he wants. When I say everything I mean that he has no mortgage on the house or boat or cars, and he retired at 51 from a senior level management job. He does now what he has always loved doing which are small renovation jobs and he is quite successful at it. They haven't had sex in 3 years and prior to that 1-2 times a year going back 5 years and he felt she did it because she had to and to him he felt like it was a chore to her. No passion, no real kissing or hugging- which we do all the time.
I have asked him things like if she all of a sudden came onto to him and wanted to have sex and be passionate how would he react? He said he just has no interest in her. She's a nice person but he just is way past that. He says he has no interest in her. He refers to her as his roommate. He has also told me that that would never happen- she has never done that and I shouldn't be concerned about that ever happening. He said that he isn't a machine and she by some wierd chance it did happen he doesn't think he could get an erection because he feels no sexual attraction towards her. Could this be true?
Is he invested in "us"? Yes I do believe he is. He has told me that he does things that he has never done for anyone else and is always telling me we are very compatible. Compatiability, he tells me is the most important thing - more so than sex. Have we had it? yes. Is it fabulous? yes. And its very natural for me- more natural than anyone I have ever been with. But we didn't go there until about a month and a half into our relationship and it just simply happened- no planning involved. He has always told me that what we have isn't about the sex. I believe that- I think it is about him getting his emotional needs being met. Another reason I believe him is because I unfortunately had to have emergency surgery (total abdominal hysterectomy) on September 9th and he has been there in ever sense. More than anyone ever has been there for me. Nonstop hugs, cuddling and sometimes just holding me when I was in severe pain both in the hospital and when I was discharged.
I am in love with him (haven't told him yet) but have asked him if he is in love with me. His response was that he very well could be and he knows that he wouldn't have done the things he has done for me if he didn't have strong feelings for me.
He has never cheated on her and does feel remorse for cheating and has asked me to be patient while he figures out a plan on how to proceed. He will tell me often that he has come close to telling her "Why don't you leave if your are so unhappy" but has never done so. I have asked him if he is so miserable why don't you just tell her and move on. Is it that they have been married "on paper" for that length of time? He knows that if something doesn't happen soon I'm breaking up with him. (How I will manage I don't know). But he often says he can't live like this any longer, dual life, living with someone he has no connection with emotionally. Have any MM's left in a situation like this? are you happier?
I have when pressed told him my thoughts. I told him that he is youthful, fit and enjoys an active lifestyle, which she does not. I told him that (baring some major illness or accident) he will probably live for at least another 30+ years- do you want them to happy or do you want to just "exist" the way you are now? I have said things like whether its with me or someone else don't you deserve to be happy? I want him to leave the M because he wants to not because me (completely anyway).
I made it clear when we first met and had a really long conversation that I am tired of being alone. I want to be married- I want someone to do things with (golf, boating, tennis, movies, having dinner, snuggling,etc.)- that I do not want to be alone forever, I want security, I want to be there for someone and vice versa. I took a chance at true honesty with him - I point blank asked him if you were to divorce her could you see yourself getting remarried? He said yes. I don't think he likes living alone - which he said he is doing right now. But I know he is still married so he really isn't alone. SO what do I do? I don't want to give him an ultimatum, at least not yet. I adore him and believe me what he has done over the time of my surgery, before, during and after has demonstrated a real sense of true caring for me. I don't think anyone could refute that. He has also told me that he has never been there for anyone like that either- or wanted to be there for anyone until I came along.
I'm sure I have left out things (please ask me as all of you who are more experienced will let me know if you see any red flags that I'm not seeing) but I just don't know what to do. If anyone can help me figure this out I would appreciate it. Since finding LS I have been reading threads and posts everyday, going back to last year and have learned SO much from the majority of people here. I have laughed and cried and have felt so much emotion over everything everyone has shared- thank you. I never knew there was such a support system out there as I have never posted anything before anywhere in my life.
One last thing that I'll say is that I have never felt better about anyone than I do with him. I have told him from day 1 that I really wasn't honest in my previous relationships about my needs and just always found myself conforming to the other person in hopes that if I changed myself they would want me. Well, now at the age of 43 I have learned that that is no longer acceptable. So he knows I am going to be me and be honest with him. He constantly tells me that he wants me to be me and likes when I speak up and talk to him (but I am afraid of pushing him)- is 6 months too long to wait for him to make a move? He is already talking about different things we will do next summer- golf courses he like to play with me, places he like to go with me on the boat, etc. So while we are not making "plans" does him talking about those things mean in his mind we are going to be together? I know no one can read his mind or predict what he will do but are these signs I should be looking for? I know I'm not seeing objectively right now which is why I need help.
I have told him how wonderful I feel with him- that I am so happy I can just be me and that he is happy with that. He said he feels the same way- that it is comforting and relaxing to be with me because we're happy with virtually no effort. We genuinely enjoy each others company- (this is what he says all the time).
This is quite new.. since July.. and already you're head over heels for him.. hummm. not good.. but it's so hard to control...
He is living with a roomate.. possible.
He has to figure out a way to leave... methink this is much easier for him being without kids.. so he might be stringing you along..
Just give him a bit more time.. but not years.. I know you don't want to give him an ultimatum.. and I agree.. at this point, it would be way too early... but just be careful so that he doesn't string you along for the sex.. while he enjoys his 'singleness' with his W... from what I read he's pretty much 'single' with her.. no sex.. he can probably do whatever he wants.. no financial problems.. since they built that together.. but that could change once he divorces..
He might be verrrry comfortable with you on the side.. trust me.. don't trust him too much.. be careful..
__________________
If your marriage is in cardiac arrest, an affair can be a defibrillator.' - Mira Kirshenbaum
Hi- thanks.
I know I have to be careful and cautious. That's what I'm afraid of. He comes home from Florida (went golfing for 2 weeks with his friends that live there) Friday. I was supposed to join him for the 2nd week but because of the surgery couldn't- still recovering.
As far as the finances go he paid for pretty much everything but knows that he would have to buy her out of the house (about $500k) and he said he has thought of the sacrifices he would have to make, but feels it wil be okay. Since he retired he no longer makes what he used to and she took another position about 5 years ago and she's making $100k so he told me if he really pushed it she would have to pay HIM alimony. He said he would never do that though, because he earns more than enough with his business now (maybe about $50k) a year for working about 4 months a year. *Wish I could do that too!!
Anyway, I know we are early on in our relationship, but does anyone agree that when you become more honest with yourself about what YOU want (needs, etc.) that you tend to find out sooner (like on the first or 2nd date) that that person is not right? I ask because I pretty much immediately know now if I meet someone new (going back before MM) that I'm not interested because either no attraction, no job, doesn't play golf, etc. or whatever.
I really think I am scared. I know there is something between us but when do you know when the right time is to move forward and push for answers?
Spark- thank you for responding but I am too afraid to ask him when he plans to tell his wife and file for divorce- at least right now at this this moment. I'm afraid I'd push him to far. I do however have a feeling that I won't be afraid to ask that at some point- because I certainly can't live like this for years. I honestly don't think he can live like this either for much longer. He has told me that. He has said something has to happen soon. Question is how soon.
In my warped mind I'm thinking that if he doesn't talk to her by at least the holidays- or say by the end of the year- will I be giving him sufficient time to make a decision? I mean I think so, but am I being unreasonable?
Oh the other thing is he said at first when he talks to her that he is going to tell her about me. I reacted immediately (which maybe I shouldn't have) and said maybe you shouldn't do that because although she wants nothing to do with him it might stir her up and she may get vindicative and angry and make the divorce worse, was I right to tell him this? Sometimes I think about this and say yes he should tell her about me, other times, no.
I also think that with the finances that she would be most likely screwed (which he would never do to her) if he wanted. From what he tells me she is so blaise about everything- she never cooks or does anything around the house (they have cleaning people), but I mean nothing- doesn't plant flowers, buy things for the house, nothing. When he redid their kitchen she offered no input- NOTHING- and when he finished didn't say a word- nothing- not a "great job" or "it looks nice". I mean really now, what woman wouldn't want their kitchen redone? He's going to do mine over and we get very entrenched in how to redesign things, which we both love talking about. Plus I like to garden and so does he. He does the lawn, flowers, etc.
I don't know, maybe I'm just crazy....Oh- and he has told his close friends about me and his brother. He has also met my family and they have seen how he treats me (bringing me to the hospital, coming to visit me everday at my parents because I stayed there for 1 week before coming home after the surgery) and everyone gets along really well. His W's parents are deceased and W doesn't get along with his family so there aren't a lot of ties.
From his side he says he basically stayed in the M because it was easy- he was already leading a separate life and the home they live in is one in which whose neighborhood is where he grew up and he loves his house (on the water) which is why he would buy her out. So that's why its been easy for him to stay- he says he never had a "real" reason to leave before me coming along. He said he was "okay" with putting up with her there because he was able to essentially lead a single life.
No one can tell you when it is or isn't the time to push for a question, only you will know.
In my experience we were together pretty much full time for 10 months, and I personally thought it was too soon to force a decision from either of us. Again, just me - but I also needed to be sure it was love and not just endorphins.
It is a great deal of pain for all ( regardless of the decision) and the truth is I too wanted to be more certain we had a solid foundation.
It was something we discussed on Thursday - and as much as I hated it (probably because he was saying it and not I) he was honest.
When the decision had to be made, there had not been enough time for us to be confident we could commit forever, he was not confident and honestly, who could be after 10 months? No one if they are logical and honest. He also said had we made it another year, the outcome may have been very different.
It is a hard pill to swallow when being told " I just wasn't sure" especially if you are the one who has shown all and given all. But I also know I would not have put a ring on my finger the next month or even next 6 - so when I look at it objectively, we were always on the same page in time.... We both wanted to get through our first year and see what was truly there.
It didn't happen for us, and a choice had to be made.
Someoneangel,
Wow...so how are you feeling now? Do you still communicate at all? I'm sorry. Its so hard for me to read some of the posts sometimes. My heart just breaks for you. Thank you for helping me - I hope I can be of help too to you and others as others have been to me here.
Someoneangel,
Wow...so how are you feeling now? Do you still communicate at all? I'm sorry. Its so hard for me to read some of the posts sometimes. My heart just breaks for you. Thank you for helping me - I hope I can be of help too to you and others as others have been to me here.
((hugs))
Thanks... it was a dark road and I am afraid not over yet.
We talk ( have a couple threads going about that) and we are in what is called LC.
But I know I must work on two things.
Yes he loves me - BUT not enough to leave. That is reality and you know what I love him, but I am worth more than that. The hard/pain part of that is loving someone with all that you and that not being enough....Sometimes it just isn't.
Two - We are in LC because we are being selfish, we love each other and don't want to let go. I go back and fourth about letting go and losing him forever or staying in light contact and letting things work themselves out.
I know the second is wrong on a million points..... I am working on it.
The problem is NC was awful, darkest days I have ever had..... and while I don't think it would be as painful now... I am truly trying to use the LC to lesson the pain of the end while really trying to focus on my own goals and wants. I cannot wait for him, nor can I sit in the " well if it was great, he would be doing this/that" or " he'll realize he made a mistake".
It can't be about him anymore.... it's about me, making hard choices and even selfish ones but trying to work it out by being honest, human and knowing I cannot be the 2nd option.
Forgot to mention.....
My family does NOT know he is married.
We've discussed this and he decided that he would feel very awkward about this and we both know they are going to find out at some point, but hopefully it will be a point were we both can answer honestly that he's separated or going through a divorce. I do feel badly about not telling my folks, but I'm taking the stance that they didn't ask....I know I know (please don't blast me) its sort of the same thing as lying.
My sister had a A with a MM about 15 years ago and he left his W and my sister & he got married and had a child. They've been happily married for 12 years now. It turned out that the ex-wife and my sister got along and was great about watching their son - they both saw it as the 2 kids from the previous marriage plus my sisters son were all siblings and why shouldn't they all get along. My sister even took care of his ex-wife (took a week of vacation time) after her back surgery- so I give her a lot of credit. They only lived 1/2 mile away from each other so the kids would frequently ride their bikes back and forth a lot. They also all spent Christmas morning together when the kids were young. Now the older ones are 20 and 18.
So my reason for sharing that is I don't think my parents would be freaked out, but we just want to spare them some interim pain. I know my parents love me unconditionally and would support whatever I wanted if it made me happy, but I think they would be concerned to some degree if they knew right now what the situation really is.
Not sure if I mentioned this and if its relevant, but he has been extremely generous to me (with time, energy devoted to me and yes financially). I only had enough sick time for 5 weeks and he helped me cover my expenses the last 3 weeks. This was very surprising to me and unexpected. I'm usually the one in relationships helping everyone else and doing for them. (Yes I have even bought one bf a car- I know idiot- but that was 10 years ago and I learned my lesson). Anyway, this is the first time in my life that someone hasn't abused me, taken advantage of me or used me and I really like it. I also really like that I can be me and feel free to enjoy activites with him that he really likes also. The game of golf, which I love was hard on some of my past relationships because they were always asking me to chose them over golf/exercising, etc. on the weekends. Or if I was doing a "long run" they would try to pin me down to when was I going to be back, how long, etc. I have no idea why I didn't figure out sooner to try and date someone who enjoys golf and being active. This is what I mean when I say that I wouldn't speak up about my own needs and now things are different with him because he totally encourages me to do what makes me happy and content. He even wants to run in a road race with me in the spring- which has never happened to me before.
Oh the other thing is he said at first when he talks to her that he is going to tell her about me. I reacted immediately (which maybe I shouldn't have) and said maybe you shouldn't do that because although she wants nothing to do with him it might stir her up and she may get vindicative and angry and make the divorce worse, was I right to tell him this? Sometimes I think about this and say yes he should tell her about me, other times, no.
Tell him to be VERY careful here. Seek the advice of a lawyer before he tells her ANYTHING about you. He may open up a can of worms he doesn't really want to open.
For example, in my state if a spouse can prove infedelity they can become eligible for LIFETIME spousal support. Also it entitles them to a larger award of the maritial assets.
In fact, when looking at the divorce laws in my state one of the first lines on the website was "IF YOU HAVE COMMITTED ADULTERY, CONFESS NOTHING!! SEEK LEGAL COUNSEL NOW!!"
In fact, in my state adultery is still considered a crime, and while probably not too common, I suppose a very angry BS could push for criminal charges.
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Attempt not to deceive the god with thy mortal lips. Peer deep within thyself, and ask not questions to which thou already knowest the answer, seek not advice which thou dost not intend to obey.
DiDi,
I see you getting very upset, and I am sorry for that. Keep in mind that we are only on the outside looking in with only tiny bits and pieces of the puzzle. You are in the middle of it and can see things much more clearly than we can.
Take our advice and comments for what they are, our opinions based on a fraction of the facts. We do not know all. We do not have all the answers. And you should not base your major life decisions on what we say or do not say.
Take in what your are being told, and think about it, but do not rush to judgement based on what you hear here. Look to yourself for the answers, because only you and he really have them.
Despite what you are feeling right now that all of these affairs end badly for the OW that is NOT always the case. There are several OWs here that are now married to their MMs. My own mother was in an affair with a man who was married for more than 20 years, and carried on his affair with my mother for over 12 years before he divorced. He and my mother married as soon as his divorce was final and they have been together happily ever since. (Over 20 years now)
You need to decide exactly what you want, and then sit down with your Mm and tell him what it is. But do not automatically jump to the conclusion that you are doomed to failure with him because of what you hear here. And even if it does not work out the way that you hope it will, try to find the positives in your realtionship with him, so that you can leave the affair having something valuable to take with you.
You will be okay regardless of the outcome, even though right now i know it does not feel that way. (((HUGS)))
Hi FA,
I am hearing everything you are saying and realize that everyone doesn't know all the details of my situation, but I think I was like a deer in headlights as I was reading some of the posts because I never thought of some of those things.
I am a little embarassed though.
I think I will see him on Friday because in my heart that's what I want and see how that goes. I know he won't stay long, but for all I know he doesn't even miss me right now and who knows- maybe he has forgotten about me. He hasn't called since Thursday. I sound pathetic, I know.
I can't respond regarding the No children but I can post on a very similar MM that I was ( some will say still am) involved with.
We met in November of last year, dinner and immediate connection - we laugh, we talk forever and we had an amazing physical connection, which lead to 10 months of a full blown affair. As things progressed, we were both afraid it was more than physical and in February we agreed it had moved on from that. We also agreed we were too early on to know if it would last or have longevity so we decided to continue as was.
In March we told each other we loved each other - Not in some romantic, only for the movies way.... it was the first time we had talked about actually breaking up - crushing for both and when the reason came out why - It was because we loved one another.
During all of these trying times, our emotional attachment grew and he told me repeatedly he didn't no if he could go back to " hiding" and " settling" for less than we had.
They are similar to your MM, financially secure and older daughters.
Here is the thing though
DDay happened and they both admitted that they were unhappy - she wasn't happy either but she still wanted to see if the marriage could be saved, and he owed it to her as he stilled loved her ( in a stagnant way). When the reality of all of it ( divorce, separating from someone you lived with for 30 plus years) it did change things. They decide to do the work and see if something was recoverable.
No one will ever be able to tell you for sure if he will leave or stay, but by either a DDay or a Disclosure day - he will go through different feelings, once they have the rush of finally saying neither is happy, he could find his feelings are there strong enough to try one more time.
People put a great deal of empathazises on history. And I always knew I could not give him that, in anyway - it was simply impossible.
I hope it works out for you, and I guess what I am trying to say is he is being honest, in the moment and I am sure he believes that. But reality of severing those ties often changes the truth, especially if she even remotely wants to recover.
So while we are not making "plans" does him talking about those things mean in his mind we are going to be together?
We all hear about future plans; that does not mean he plans to leave for you at all. It is so much easier to stay with someone you've made a life with and share community property with. As long as you make it easy for him to stay in an A, he will.
DiDi the man I was involved with is in a roomate situation and has been for years - same thing grown children etc etc etc.
he thought about leaving when we split up. Still does from time to time (now over 2 years later). Still there. Still married.
if I were a betting woman I would bet against him leaving. But that doesnt mean the man you are involved with wont leave. It just means that if he has stayed all these years in a situation that wasnt optimal, the chances that he will leave are less than 50%.
Please note: The suggestions and advice offered on this web site are opinions only and are not to be used in the place of professional psychological counseling or medical advice. If you or someone close to you is currently in crisis or in an emergency situation, contact your local law enforcement agency or emergency number.
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