So, as much discussion relating to God was removed from my last thread on "The Purpose of Life," I thought it would be interesting to have a discussion purly relating to why you hold there is/isn't a God.
As this tends to be a sensitive topic, there are a few rules that I ask you to follow:
Keep the discussion intellectual--give reasons for you assertions.
Don't bash other people's views especially by name-calling i.e. childish, stupid, uneducated, etc. And none of this , please.
If there is disagreement--and I'm certain there will be: please treat each other with respect and debate (again) intellectually.
As many of you already know where I stand and why, I'll allow someone else to begin the discussion.
Okay, all that being said, let's begin!
Last edited by always_searching; 21st September 2009 at 9:36 AM..
Over the years man has evolved from believing in multiple gods to the current monotheism the majority of the world believes. Is it much of a stretch to think that in another few generations the single deity will be eradicated altogether? We've already whittled it down to one because we're enlightened enough to know that there isn't a god pulling the sun across the sky and another one making volcanoes erupt.
And consider some of the different religious "styles" there's those that won't let you dance, those that won't let you drink and, my personal favorite, the one where women are prohibited from cutting their hair and they can only wear skirts. So this god character has a dress code?
I've heard many theological discussions where an individual of one faith will flat-out tell someone of a different faith, "Well, your religion is wrong." Wow, I'm not even religious and I take offense to that.
I find it difficult to believe that an all-knowing being created humans then left no proof of "his" existence. Sure, the religious zealots will tell you, "Look at the trees and the sun and the sky, that's proof of his existence." Uh no, all of that, and human life itself, can be traced back to evolution, the big bang theory and other scientific discoveries. The scientific views are a lot easier to believe than the blind faith of the devout.
I once had someone tell me how great my life would be if I would get married, have kids and go to church. At that time, my life was pretty darned good just the way it was. Not to mention the fact I don't want to be married, I can't have children, and it wasn't until I started to consider religion and the existence of god again that my life started going downhill.
You know, I actually considered attending a church service to slowly ease my way back into this whole religious mindset. But then it occurred to me that churches expect a donation and I have no money whatsoever. Hmmm, looks like the unspoken rule of religion is "You've got to pay to pray"
"Let Go and Let God" is one phrase the religious nuts love to spew. Funny thing is once I tried that things got even worse than they had been before. "But," respond the religious nuts, "God helps those who help themselves." Yep, tried that one too and got screwed yet again. Funny how they have an answer for everything and each answer contradicts itself.
Then there are the people that will tell you God answers all prayers, but sometimes his answer is no. Well, if he's answered any of my prayers I respectfully request that he do it again and speak up this time because I got no response, not even a "No." "But you have to look for the answers" they'll respond. Um, no if this guy can create an entire universe, he should be able to dial direct when answering a question or a request. I'm not asking for the meaning of life, I'm just asking for some guidance, and maybe a little help, with my own. Hell, didn't he send a burning bush to someone? Why can't I receive a communication like that? Or does he not do those tricks anymore? Why not?
"But what about the Bible?" The zealots reply. Well, let's see, it's a book of stories, kind of like the tales of the Brothers Grimm. Someone told stories for a living and they were eventually written down. Can't help but wonder if in another 1,000 years our descendents, who won't believe in any god, will think that their roots are derived from a young boy with magical powers who fought wizards and witches and dragons. Then there will be a new religion, the "Potters" whose number one son will be "The Boy Who Lived."
So let's recap some:
A mysterious all-knowing being that hides proof of his existence vs. scientific proof of evolution the creation of the universe
"Let go and let God" vs. "God helps those who help themselves"
One God but hundreds of different religions (some with dress codes)
Please come to church this Sunday, Oh and be sure to bring money to give to our cause
Oh, and I think my favorite thing is that god forgives all. So I can be as mean and hateful as I want then ask for forgiveness on my death bed and he'll forgive me and let me into heaven. So why should I give up my only day to sleep late to attend a religious ceremony with a bunch of hypocrites who were probably out partying the night before? Why not just have a good time now and, if there really is a god, ask him to forgive my transgressions just before I die?
A mysterious all-knowing being that hides proof of his existence vs. scientific proof of evolution the creation of the universe
"Let go and let God" vs. "God helps those who help themselves"
One God but hundreds of different religions (some with dress codes)
Please come to church this Sunday, Oh and be sure to bring money to give to our cause
Oh, and I think my favorite thing is that god forgives all. So I can be as mean and hateful as I want then ask for forgiveness on my death bed and he'll forgive me and let me into heaven. So why should I give up my only day to sleep late to attend a religious ceremony with a bunch of hypocrites who were probably out partying the night before? Why not just have a good time now and, if there really is a god, ask him to forgive my transgressions just before I die?
Good morning, nobody's girl!
Okay, I have much to say in response to this, yet no time right now to do so. So, if no one else has given responses to your objections regarding God and religion, I will lend you my own. So, do check back in later!
For now, I'll ask that you consider a few things:
Look into the causal and ontological proofs for God's existence i.e. Aquinas' five proofs, as well as Anselm's and/or Descartes' ontological proofs. Wikipedia has a pretty good summary of the arguments--I would post links, but not sure if that's allowed.
Also, remember that any errors that are found concerning God are on our (humanity's) part. So, yes, God reveals Himself and--if you are Christian--sets up His church through Jesus Christ. Now, not so many years later, the church begins to become corrupt, and people even break away from the church, claim that they know the truth, and start their own church i.e. the Reformation. The point is: this is all man's doing--not God's. He reveals Himself through the divine revelation and the Holy Spirit, and leaves much interpretation up to us. Now, for example, if you recall back to any English course, when you read a novel, how many interpretations can be formed? Of course, the author might have had a totally different intention when he formed and penned his novel. Yet, we the readers are engaged in the novel and bring our own perspectives to it, creating individual interpretations.
As far as the money is concerned: I don't know what church(s) you've attended, but generally it's considered a donation--no one is requiring that you pay to attend church. If you've gone to a church that does require such a thing: I wouldn't recommend anyone attend that church.
I have to run--more comments to come!
Thanks so much to everyone who has commented!
Last edited by always_searching; 21st September 2009 at 10:39 AM..
Wow, the question is about as big as they come, isn't it?
Indeed it is! As most of my discussion in other threads ultimately came down to this issue, I figured I would start a seperate thread on the matter.
LOL, and what better time to talk about these lofty issues than 9:00am?
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I think it's important to define the term first, though. God, in what sense?
God as the unmoved first mover of existence--either the personal (Christian, Islamic, Jewish, etc.) God of creation who cares for and loves His creation, or the impersonal god (uncapitalized deliberately) who just happens to be accidently sustaining us i.e. the god of Aristotle.
I didn't define the term, because I want the contributors to the thread to do all the defining. So, again, I am only going to stipulate that God is a moving principle; whether or not he cares for us is up for grabs as far as this discussion is concerned.
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Do I believe there's a personalized god (uncapitalized deliberately) that takes interest in the affairs of humanity?
No. There's just no evidence for it.
Two things: (1) Can you clairify why the God of creation is deliberately placed in lower-case for you? (2) You really don't see any evidence for why God 'takes interest in the affairs of humanity'?
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Do I believe that there's some sort of intelligence behind the structure of the universe as a whole?
It's unclear. Ask me again once the existence of the Higgs boson is proven/disproven.
Interesting. I've heard very little about the Higgs boson. I'll have to look further into it.
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To my mind, the only rational conclusion is agnosticism.
Huh. Well, I was agnostic for a number of years. I must say, it's very modern/Kantian of you. However, I think there are a number of rational explainations for why God must exist, both causal and ontological. I'll have to post them later, as I need to go to class and my fervor for posting died down when many of my better-articulated posts were deleted.
I will come back to this, though!
Last edited by always_searching; 21st September 2009 at 10:21 AM..
LOL, and what better time to talk about these lofty issues than 9:00am?
And on a Monday, yet!
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Originally Posted by always_searching
Two things: (1) Can you clairify why the God of creation is deliberately placed in lower-case for you?
Because the term is a purely human construct and has precious little to do with anything even remotely supernatural.
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Originally Posted by always_searching
(2) You really don't see any evidence for why God 'takes interest in the affairs of humanity'?
No, I don't. I'm not talking about wars or famines or natural disasters (that's another discussion altogether), I'm talking about people I know personally who have done all they're supposed to do (prayer, tithing and all the rest) and still have their prayers ignored. And I'm not talking about prayers to win the lottery or some such nonsense, I'm talking about prayers for things like healing a sick family member or prayers for understanding or enlightenment.
So that tells me one of three things:
God isn't all-powerful
God is malevolent, and actively denies those pleas for help
God, in the personalized sense, doesn't exist.
It's got to be one of the three. Since there isn't any evidence for 1 and 2, I'll have to go with 3.
Last edited by Thaddeus; 21st September 2009 at 10:35 AM..
Reason: fixed formatting
Because the term is a purely human construct and has precious little to do with anything even remotely supernatural.No, I don't. I'm not talking about wars or famines or natural disasters (that's another discussion altogether), I'm talking about people I know personally who have done all they're supposed to do (prayer, tithing and all the rest) and still have their prayers ignored. And I'm not talking about prayers to win the lottery or some such nonsense, I'm talking about prayers for things like healing a sick family member or prayers for understanding or enlightenment.
So that tells me one of three things:
God isn't all-powerful
God is malevolent, and actively denies those pleas for help
God, in the personalized sense, doesn't exist.
It's got to be one of the three. Since there isn't any evidence for 1 and 2, I'll have to go with 3.
I take it you've read Descartes' Meditations and/or his Discourse on Method? If not, you should! I think you would like it a great deal as he has the same problems and comes to a similar conclusion using reason alone. Now, he doesn't state that the personalized God doesn't exist--he was a devout Catholic, after all. However, he doesn't rationally prove a personal God unless you consider His actively being involved in our cause/creation and in sustaining us personal. Some might, but I don't think that's what you mean by the term--I'm assuming you mean a loving God when you think of a personal God.
What about stating something like: if God is, by His nature, all perfections and love is considered a perfection that God is love.
I'll come back to your other points regarding prayers and God not intervening, but I really do have to go!
LOL, someone please kick my behind off of loveshack and out of the door, else I'm going to miss out on other fun morning discussions regarding ethics!
To my mind, the only rational conclusion is agnosticism.
I disagree, it's not rational at all.
Just because there is no evidence to conclusively disprove something, doesn't mean there is a 50/50 chance for it to exist.
The only reason most agnostics entertain the idea of a deity is because we're culturally brought up with the idea being acceptable.
If I said everyone had an undetectable gnome sitting on their left shoulder people would laugh at me, and rightfully so. Yet it would be just as plausible as the idea of a deity.
The only rational conclusion any of us could come to, is the one we come to on our own. We believe or don't believe for our own reasons. Why do people always need to find a way to justify threir beliefs to someone or even to themselves?
A belief can never be wrong, so why try to make it right in someone elses eyes?
We believe or don't believe for our own reasons. Why do people always need to find a way to justify threir beliefs to someone or even to themselves?
It helps us find out which beliefs are reasonable and which aren't because not all beliefs are equal. Some are downright silly; some can be extremely dangerous. It is folly to pretend they're all on the same level. Some beliefs need to be attacked and weeded out.
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A belief can never be wrong, so why try to make it right in someone elses eyes?
Of course they can. A belief in something that is demonstratably untrue is the very definition of wrong.
It helps us find out which beliefs are reasonable and which aren't because not all beliefs are equal. Some are downright silly; some can be extremely dangerous. It is folly to pretend they're all on the same level. Some beliefs need to be attacked and weeded out.
I became an Atheist when I was 13 after having attended a Catholic school for several years. By that point, I had been indoctrinated with enough of the teachings/dogma through religion classes that I was able to make a logical decision that I rejected the notion of God.
So, that would mean I do not believe in God or any sort of higher being.
IMO, man created God and the scriptures along the same lines as any other old folklore - a way to explain how the natural world worked around them. Before science provided the answers. There is no empirical evidence to support the God myth, so for me it left it pretty clear.
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