[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]I stumbled upon this forum having found myself in the less-than-enviable position of having to get over an EA, a very significant one that lasted for nearly 3 years. I am a MW and he is a MM, both with a decade of marriage and a whole passel of kids between us. I finally severed all ties with him and insisted on NC exactly 10 days ago. I’ve lurked in the background for several days, and read post upon post of what I am certain was intended as well-meaning “advice” from the victims---those whose spouses participated in such elicit and hurtful relationships. I’ve seen blame thrown, deflected, and rebounded, much to my chagrin, and I know that these victims are not intentionally trying to maim us OW/OM. They are merely trying to point out the error of our ways, help us to see clearly the ramifications and consequences of our actions, and steer us clear of said actions everafter. Thanks, and points taken. The deal is though, we—or at least I--- came here because we are grieving. We are broken people. We did something shortsighted, selfish, and ultimately stupid, so trust us when we tell you WE FEEL BAD ENOUGH! Should we have ever done it in the first place? Absolutely, unequivocally NO. But is there any damn thing in this world we can magically conjure up to undo the pain, the suffering, or the heartbreak now? Just as emphatically, NO. If there were, don’t you think we’d do it? Is there anything within you that thinks it helps us AT ALL to add a heapin’ helpin’ of holier-than-thou GUILT to our already shattered hearts? I mourn for his wife and his children and the role I played in taking his heart out of that family. I suffer just as vehemently over the irreparable damage I’ve done to my own marriage and family by withholding my own time, energy, and affections from them in exchange for his affections. Although I maintain it wasn’t intentional, it was still just as detrimental and whether it’s involuntary manslaughter or murder in the first, the victim is just as dead. I know that, and live with it every hour of every day, and reminders, especially from the likes of those pious and self-righteous individuals who choose to bear none of the responsibility for neglecting, ignoring, or otherwise not meeting the needs of their respective spouses thus driving them to the desperate measures that desperate times will always call for, are unnecessary. Yes, if I had it to do all over again, I would recognize the emotional neglect for what it was, communicate my need for it with my own husband instead of seeking it outside of my marriage, and hopefully solve the problem before it ever started. At the risk of pointing out the glaringly obvious, I CAN’T DO THAT NOW! I didn’t even know what an EA was when mine started, and I certainly didn’t embark on a sinister and sordid journey to find one. I may decide to type my story one of these days, and maybe that’ll garner me some sympathy. Maybe not. I daresay PROBABLY not from many of your contributors: those who can’t get past their own virtuous and moral perfection to see that sometimes good people do bad things, make mistakes, and are very sorry for them. These same good people are often blissfully unaware at the time of the implications and potential effects of what they are doing to themselves, to each other, and to those orbiting each other. Smart? No. But when we figure it out and elect to do the right thing, kindly don’t beat the crap out of the carcass of the horse because we already get it….[/SIZE][/FONT]
What kind of support are you actually asking for? Commiseration? Justification?
The support you're actually getting from a number of us (myself included) is geared around helping you repair the damage done by the affair. This support is based off of our experiences in actually doing this.
There are things we know are REQUIRED for the marriage to recover...honesty being one of the keystones in this.
Sure, you're being pressured to tell your H. The main reason you're seeing so many people push to do it NOW rather than later when you think you'll feel better about it is because we know that if you don't do it now, you'll find rationalization after rationalization to avoid EVER doing it. I have seen this time and again with WS's on this forum and others. ITS ALL PART OF THE SCRIPT.
There's NEVER a "GOOD" time to do something that hurts...but its always far easier to rationalize a choice to avoid taking a difficult action...and the more difficult it is, the easier it is to rationalize NEVER doing it.
What this all boils down to is this...what "support" do you REALLY WANT from here? Do you want help in recovering your marriage from all of this? Do you want help in personally recovering from all of it? Or do you want help in making yourself feel better about where you're at now, and postpone taking true action to fix anything until later?
So...what, really...do you WANT in the form of support here?
(BTW...paragraphs would make your post easier to read...up to you tho.)
__________________
Wise...no. Been through enough to have learned to value wisdom...certainly!
I agree with you. There is much of what you described going on, even on this the "OM/OW" forum. Personally I think there are lots of forums on LS where BS, or BSO's can vent their anger, and bitterness... but it is a public forum and I certainly don't make the rules.
Time and maturity, experiance tend to moderate the rage, people feel. Believe me, many BS's are enraged. Personally, I will never forgive my ex for stealing 25 years of my emotional life.. over time how she did it (A's) has become less important than the fact that she did it.
Owl.
I think this lady, and other OM/OW come to this forum looking for "support" for a place to share experiance with others they believe have shared similar experiances.
There are a few that come here to engage in intellectual and emotional combat with them, as is generally done on the infidelity, cheating, break up, coping etc. forums. As I said to remorseful, I'm not sure how productive this is.
I especially find amusing signiture lines that attempt to intimidate. There is no point there.
I can find it inside me to support, ie. listen, advise based on my experiance, commiserate, even emote with people. I've been on both sides of the subject, and am to old to spew hate. It isn't fun for me anymore.. it just reinforces negetivity, which is a waste of time.
I finally severed all ties with him and insisted on NC exactly 10 days ago
Congrats on the 10 days. Do 10 more...And then 10 more after that. Do not breakdown and contact him.
Quote:
We are broken people. We did something shortsighted, selfish, and ultimately stupid, so trust us when we tell you WE FEEL BAD ENOUGH! Should we have ever done it in the first place? Absolutely, unequivocally NO. But is there any damn thing in this world we can magically conjure up to undo the pain, the suffering, or the heartbreak now?
And there's your reason to keep the NC going, NO matter what.
Quote:
Yes, if I had it to do all over again, I would recognize the emotional neglect for what it was, communicate my need for it with my own husband instead of seeking it outside of my marriage, and hopefully solve the problem before it ever started. At the risk of pointing out the glaringly obvious, I CAN’T DO THAT NOW!
No, you can't. But what you can do is now focus ONLY on your husband and realize that as of now the MM serves NO purpose in your life. Not even as a friend. All you can do now is change for the better and fix your marriage, do counselling and learn to communicate better with your husband.
Your right, we are out numbered on this board, there are now more bs here then ow/om. It used to be a support board, now its only support if you are willing to go nc and break up the affair, and become "reformed" Was not always like that here, but they found us.... Not all are totally angry, some are quiet helpful for allowing us to see whats it like on the otherside. But many do bash and it can get nasty around here. I have not posted much on my A because of it. Good luck....
Your right, we are out numbered on this board, there are now more bs here then ow/om. It used to be a support board, now its only support if you are willing to go nc and break up the affair, and become "reformed" Was not always like that here, but they found us.... Not all are totally angry, some are quiet helpful for allowing us to see whats it like on the otherside. But many do bash and it can get nasty around here. I have not posted much on my A because of it. Good luck....
There's still alot of OW/XOW lurking around...They just don't post as much here...
OP, you'll find support here from several of us, if that is what you need...As for the "bashing" that goes on, just put the poster on ignore if you don't want to see what they post...
If your choice is to stay with your MM, that is your choice...I couldn't discern from your post what your goal is...If your choice is to stay, there are many of us who will support you either way...Not everyone here is a BS...Just know what it is you want, and don't deter from it...That's what gets some of the "usual" suspects going and they will try and use your words against you and make you doubt at every turn...
And there are those of us who keep it real...
EEG
P.S. Sometimes it is great fun to engage in a battle of wits...
Your right, we are out numbered on this board, there are now more bs here then ow/om. It used to be a support board, now its only support if you are willing to go nc and break up the affair, and become "reformed" Was not always like that here, but they found us.... Not all are totally angry, some are quiet helpful for allowing us to see whats it like on the otherside. But many do bash and it can get nasty around here. I have not posted much on my A because of it. Good luck....
True, sometimes it only seems like a 'support' board for those who as you are say are willing to go along with the advice they think you should be taking.
I know some forums have rules that forbid the "other side" from posting on the boards specifically for the BS, WS or OW, but that can get old too as you don't get the differing opinions you get here.
It's sad when people don't feel free to express themselves for fear of being bashed, and it often seems from some of the posts from the "other side" that the OW isn't supposed to be grieving the loss of an R or having any feelings at all.
Your thread bothers me for some reason. I guess B/C i came here after (well in the middle of trying to) ending an A too & I recieved alot of support here but ur saying you ended an A too & you arent getting the support you want. Well then imo your not really looking for support in ending an A, B/C if so you will find it here. There are very smart and helpful ppl here. But only if you listen to the hard truths. Instead you act like everyone here is against you. So do the other OWs who complain against this type of advice. But i think you r being ur own worst enemy for not realising your part in your A.
Imo instead of complaning that not enough people here SUPPORT ppl who r in or have been having As, you should be doing a lot of hard thinking about yourself. That is what it takes or at least it did for me, i couldnt get away from exMM if i wasnt focused on myself. You accuse ppl here of 'blame-shifting' & 'deflecting.' Well i read you doing the same thing in ur posts. It sounds UNremorseful to me B/C you just make a bunch of excuses instead of taking personal responsibility for your A. Ill say that i havent read your other posts but this one thread really bugged me B/C it sounds like ur just trying to say 'what about me me me.'
Our cases are different, im not married but i wasnt willing to be OW anymore, i broke it off with my exMM untill/unless he gets the D hes promised me. So that is my story. Yours may be diff. but you were in an A & in order to realise how to be happier you have to realise what brought you there which is YOU & ONLY YOU, no one else. Ppl here encouraged me to be strong, & they will encourage you to do the same thing. I guess i just am posting this to defend the ppl who really helped me which were mainly from what i could tell BS, xOWs & reg. old normal people who arent having As. If i didnt take their advice B/C they wernt supportive OW i never wouldve gotten anywhere in my case at least.
As far as a battle of wits goes, im not sure what was the pt of that comment. But i think owl would win a battle of wits any time, you should pay attention to his posts. He helped me a lot. And WhichWayisUp too.
I wish you luck in healing from your A or wha it is that ur aiming for... i cant even tell from ur 'rant' post. i think your going about this all the wrong way. Just concentrate on yourself & ur own actions & stop complaning about the ppl who are here to help you or give you there own perspective. i dont see how thats useful or even nice, you are the one who came here right! So dont complain about responses just listen to them & try to learn from them. im just telling you this B/C it is what helped me, i am 100% happier now. but i guess B/C im not telling you what ur looking to hear... what that may be im not sure?... you will say im not being supportive. ok so i just wanted to defend the ppl here who 'support' by showing a DIFFERENT perspective. i dont see whats wrong with that, i personnaly was very glad they were here & you might not be but why 'rant' about them like you say. there are better things to do beleive me.
Sometimes it is great fun to engage in a battle of wits...
Assuming there are wits to engage with!
I do agree with the OP though on the issue of support - posters who show, or fake, remorse are showered with it, whereas others find themselves receptacles for the righteous outrage of injured of offended parties. Support for those people often happens off-line - through PMs, private email exchanges or other invisible means less vulnerable to attack resulting from someone else's unresolved issues. Those invisible support networks are at least as significant for OW as the visible threads posted in this forum, but - because they rely on PMs and such, are not immediately accessible to newbies who may be most in need of support (given that posting here in the first place is often prompted by some crisis).
I’ve seen blame thrown, deflected, and rebounded, much to my chagrin, and I know thatthese victims are not intentionally trying to maim us OW/OM.
Hey, speak for yourself!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Remorseful
Is there anything within you that thinks it helps us AT ALL to add a heapin’ helpin’ of holier-than-thou GUILT to our already shattered hearts?
It is not the intention of these types of posters to try to help us. Many of them are simply lashing out at their own personal demons. (Everybody's got 'em.) Either that or it's a way to convince themselves that they really are Holier Than You. Whatever the case, they conveniently choose us as their target -- they don't know us from Adam... and I daresay that IRL they can't get away with treating others like that, because most people won't tolerate that kind of abuse. So they come here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Remorseful
...reminders, especially from the likes of those pious and self-righteous individuals who choose to bear none of the responsibility for neglecting, ignoring, or otherwise not meeting the needs of their respective spouses thus driving them to the desperate measures that desperate times will always call for, are unnecessary...
Amen! I heartily agree. That fine point is ever-so-conveniently hidden. Otherwise, they wouldn't have a leg to stand on in their own harsh judgments and condemnations of others! Duh!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Remorseful
I daresay PROBABLY not from many of your contributors: those who can’t get past their own virtuous and moral perfection to see that sometimes good people do bad things, make mistakes, and are very sorry for them.
And I (like most others) avoid any interaction with these people IRL... like the plague. Here on LS, I either point out the irony (every chance I get!) or I just ignore them. It's like everything else... you have to separate the wheat from the chaff.
*****
All that being said -- this site has been TREMENDOUSLY HELPFUL to me and my own issues. Other posters (besides the ones described above!!) have provided extremely valuable insight, which has enabled me to determine the right course in my own life. It's been a godsend. I hope it helps you too. Give it a chance, whydon'tcha?
__________________
"There are still too many days when I'm the only woman in the room." -Nancy Pelosi
Having been here a few years I think the board goes through various phases of when it feels 'safer' to post your real feelings and when it seems that every little word you post that's not 'on-message' (affairs are wrong, you must end it, think of all the people getting hurt) is going to be picked apart. I agree with the person who said that unless you come here 'remorseful' and willing to change, end it, grovel about how wrong you were, you're not really going to feel comfortable a lot of the time.
And that's a shame, because at the same time as I think people engaging in affairs do well to hear all sides of a debate (within reason: I see no excuse whatever for those posts calling for physical or other harm to affair partners and think they should be banned), it also means that the affair partners don't end up being truthful about their story, their feelings, their fears and their opinions for fear of the backlash. Sorry, fellow posters but I know this for a fact.
So, basically, the forum suffers for that.
However, no forum can be perfect. I would suggest just posting away anyway, but I know from personal experience, when you're most in need of sharing and understanding is the time you're in NO WAY going to put it out there for a bunch of strangers to start calling you a worthless so and so. Easy for people to knock when they're not emotionally involved in the situation. And it seems some come here just to have a moral debate or push their own personal agendas, forgetting the pain on the other side of the screen and the person in need of support in their darkest times.
__________________
"Moral indignation is jealousy with a halo." ~ H. G. Wells
it also means that the affair partners don't end up being truthful about their story, their feelings, their fears and their opinions for fear of the backlash.
Yes. When one compares the "hidden transcript" of what is said off-line - via PM, private email or whatever - to what is posted here, it's clear that the posts here are censored, heavily coded or sometimes even "masked" to throw attackers off the scent. So for the BS hoping to see the other side, the OW / OM looking for resonant experience, or the curious onlooker wondering what people really go through during an A, what they're seeing is kind of like what slaves will say in front of their masters before going back to talk their secret feelings to other slaves - at best, a very partial view; the reflection back to the "dominant" group of their (the dominant group's) self-image rather than the true view of the oppressed group.
(Anyone who's read Spivak will recognise this dynamic.)
Okay, I'll bite, as one of these much-maligned BS who ought to stay away.
I just want to say this: I know what you guys are talking about, and the bashing often seems completely counterproductive to me. I get that people are in pain here, and I'm not interested in hurting others for fun of it. And I get frustrated and fed up with people who do, as you say, love to sail in here and bash all over people because they themselves are in pain.
That said - here's the thing, guys. I don't want to be scared away from posting on these boards either, because generally when I choose to contribute, it's because SOMEONE posted a thread along the lines of "what is the BS thinking?" "why does she do this?" and so forth. And the ignorant, knee-jerk responses from *some* OW/OM to these questions drive me MAAAAAAAAD.
Naturally, I'm of the opinion that the best advice on that particular topic is going to come from people who are in that position, rather than other OW/OM who want to put words in our mouths. And I'm not going to change that opinion.
Case in point:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Remorseful
especially from the likes of those pious and self-righteous individuals who choose to bear none of the responsibility for neglecting, ignoring, or otherwise not meeting the needs of their respective spouses thus driving them to the desperate measures that desperate times will always call for, are unnecessary.
Before you get upset, OP, please know that I understand that you're not talking about all BS. HOWEVER - that has, at times, been the dominant viewpoint on these boards about where a BS is coming from, and let me tell you, it's REALLY HARD to hold one's tongue in the face of that. I do, more often than not, for the very reasons you've outlined here. And because I do understand that these boards are to support people involved in an affair (the various interpretations of "support" notwithstanding).
But I do feel that at times, it is useful for me to jump in and put things back on an even keel - to remind people posting about the terrible, neglectful, bitchy BS that she's a person and, often as not, hasn't done half the crap she's accused of (or he). I know it's preferable to think that the BS in your situation is a royal bitch - but you do the math. Lots of times, she isn't, and it does no one any good to put things on that level. In EITHER direction. I personally can't see how anyone trying to figure out what they want from an affair or trying to understand where they really stand is AT ALL served by so completely mischaracterizing the truth.
Doesn't it make sense to actually see things clearly, as they really are, if you want to figure out where you really stand??? To me, that means seeing people as people, not bitchy placeholders. As I say, I recognize that that works in both directions. But, truth is, there's a way of thinking on these boards *at times* that suggests that it's okay to think of the BS as the bad guy, if it helps with the healing.
Um...no. I don't agree.
So yeah, I think it's worth pointing out, from time to time. When things get a bit over the top.
Another case in point:
Quote:
Originally Posted by OWoman
what they're seeing is kind of like what slaves will say in front of their masters before going back to talk their secret feelings to other slaves - at best, a very partial view; the reflection back to the "dominant" group of their (the dominant group's) self-image rather than the true view of the oppressed group.
I'm really not meaning to pick on you, OWoman!! Truly. Er...but I gotta say, this kind of struck me as a just a wee bit melodramatic.
__________________
Anything you've ever said is brilliant
Anything you wanna do is fine by me
This is much better than love, babe...
Last edited by serial muse; 8th May 2008 at 11:02 AM.
Please note: The suggestions and advice offered on this web site are opinions only and are not to be used in the place of professional psychological counseling or medical advice. If you or someone close to you is currently in crisis or in an emergency situation, contact your local law enforcement agency or emergency number.
but i guess B/C im not telling you what ur looking to hear... what that may be im not sure?... you will say im not being supportive. ok so i just wanted to defend the ppl here who 'support' by showing a DIFFERENT perspective. i dont see whats wrong with that, i personnaly was very glad they were here & you might not be but why 'rant' about them like you say. there are better things to do beleive me.
Linear Mode
