.....the lochness monster or the boogeyman .....
......believe in ghosts or monsters or the tooth fairy or santa clause?
......aliens or monsters or the easter bunny. Well by that same argument it's insane to believe in God too.
Sorry barefoot for the precis of your post on your own thread.
I wish to put the point, from an atheist point of view,
It is not insane to believe in god.
I do not, but it is definately not insane to believe in god.
I wish to speak here of my most personal experience of a believer, a true believer in God.
He watched his mother die when he was five years old,
He was thrown out of his house, at fifteen, when his alcoholic father remarried and his new wife didn't want him around.
He was a man who had suffered greatly in his life. A man who found his dignity in life through his religion. His purpose, his destiny, everything he was and stood for was embodied in his belief in his God.
He lived his lfe in total and complete dignity, honesty, and respect for other people.
He loved his wife, through the good times, and the bad, for almost sixty years, then he died, and she died six months later, pining for this great man.
He loved and supported his family through all the hard times and the deprivations.
He believed, totally, he was the most intelligent man I have ever known, no where near insane. He never buckled, never cracked, endured it all with all the dignity you could imagine. Even at the end when he was reduced to a shadow of himself.
His God saw him through it all.
He was my father.
He believed.
His life was not wrong.
__________________
All I know for sure is that I know nothing.
Sorry barefoot for the precis of your post on your own thread.
I wish to put the point, from an atheist point of view,
It is not insane to believe in god.
I do not, but it is definately not insane to believe in god.
I wish to speak here of my most personal experience of a believer, a true believer in God.
He watched his mother die when he was five years old,
He was thrown out of his house, at fifteen, when his alcoholic father remarried and his new wife didn't want him around.
He was a man who had suffered greatly in his life. A man who found his dignity in life through his religion. His purpose, his destiny, everything he was and stood for was embodied in his belief in his God.
He lived his lfe in total and complete dignity, honesty, and respect for other people.
He loved his wife, through the good times, and the bad, for almost sixty years, then he died, and she died six months later, pining for this great man.
He loved and supported his family through all the hard times and the deprivations.
He believed, totally, he was the most intelligent man I have ever known, no where near insane. He never buckled, never cracked, endured it all with all the dignity you could imagine. Even at the end when he was reduced to a shadow of himself.
Such delusional thinking is not all bad. It provides a number of benefits:
confidence in the face of risk or danger; and blindness to doubt and the possibility of failure. If we weren’t so selectively perceptive, we might just stay in bed all day.
These delusions shift from assets into liabilities only when we need to change in order to move to a new level of performance. We sit around, godlike, convinced of our supreme excellence, and when people suggest we alter our approach, they are regarded with pure bafflement.
The response runs through three phases:
First, we presume the other party must be confused. Surely they are mixing us up with someone else. They don’t know what they’re talking about. Certainly, some people must change, but we are not among them.
Next, we become dimly aware that there might be some evidence underlying their suggestion that we change. So we dive into denial mode. If this criticism applied to us, we would not be the successes we are today. Our supposed ‘flaws’ can’t really matter that much. If they did, how could we be so successful?
In phase three, everything else having failed, we go on the attack. Shoot the messenger. “Why should a winner like me,” we ask, “give the time of day to a loser like you?”
Those responses only skim across the surface of the challenge; they are only denial mechanisms. But it’s also known that highly successful people share
four other attitudes about themselves. They put an unusually positive slant on:
a.their past performance
b. their uncanny knack for belief that their personal contribution is a major factor in the success in any process they’re involved with (not luck, random chance or external factors).
c.the surety that their prior success will extend well across the horizon into the future
d.their belief in their mastery of their own destiny.
Denial-plus-delusion is a highly explosive compound, the Semtex of the corner office. And more often than not, the detonator is the need to change. These four beliefs contain the paradox of success. Successful people believe in their own success. But these beliefs also carry the seed of our failures: the beliefs that carried us here— which can be a pretty great place—will impair our ability to progress there—which can be performance at the next level.
My father, nor I had, or have this belief system outlined above.
Sorry barefoot for the precis of your post on your own thread.
I wish to put the point, from an atheist point of view,
It is not insane to believe in god.
I do not, but it is definately not insane to believe in god.
I wish to speak here of my most personal experience of a believer, a true believer in God.
He watched his mother die when he was five years old,
He was thrown out of his house, at fifteen, when his alcoholic father remarried and his new wife didn't want him around.
He was a man who had suffered greatly in his life. A man who found his dignity in life through his religion. His purpose, his destiny, everything he was and stood for was embodied in his belief in his God.
He lived his lfe in total and complete dignity, honesty, and respect for other people.
He loved his wife, through the good times, and the bad, for almost sixty years, then he died, and she died six months later, pining for this great man.
He loved and supported his family through all the hard times and the deprivations.
He believed, totally, he was the most intelligent man I have ever known, no where near insane. He never buckled, never cracked, endured it all with all the dignity you could imagine. Even at the end when he was reduced to a shadow of himself.
His God saw him through it all.
He was my father.
He believed.
His life was not wrong.
Your father sounds like a wonderful man. Strong and commited. That kind of man raises wonderfull children.
Not me Moose, my Father, he deserves your respect, I do not. I am no believer, I am a violent, nasty man at times, I have screwed up a lot of things, and made many horrible mistakes.
I am proud to be my fathers son.
I am sorry for my mistakes, and I have atoned for them all to the people I f****d up. I am no saint. I could never live up to the man my father was.
He lived his religion, in word and thought and deed. I am a shadow of his son, I know that.
Your father sounds like a wonderful man. Strong and commited. That kind of man raises wonderfull children.
Ditto bent, not me, I was not talking about me, I was trying to make the point that it is not insane to believe in your God, I saw a shining example of a believer up close.
I, as most kids do, took the example of good parents and twisted it. I still do not believe in god, odd, I believe in my father though. It was his God, but it was not a bad thing at all.
Ditto bent, not me, I was not talking about me, I was trying to make the point that it is not insane to believe in your God, I saw a shining example of a believer up close.
I, as most kids do, took the example of good parents and twisted it. I still do not believe in god, odd, I believe in my father though. It was his God, but it was not a bad thing at all.
Well I do think regardless of your past that you can earn the respect of others with thoughtful actions and eloquent insights. You should take some credit for the aforementioned insight and confessions.
It is very difficult to stand up and say "I have done some bad and regretful things in my life". I have respect for you for simply being able to admit such a difficult thing. Regardless of what has transpired in your life- your father has instilled in you the ability to admit your mistakes and endeavour to make amends. In your case, the forgiveness you seek and struggle with will be internal.... I think that holds as much weight (even more in my opinion), then seeking forgiveness from an external force. Even seeking forgiveness from other human beings is a harder thing to face then talking to a god. What that says about you is that your actions are not guided by fear of punishment- but guided by your conscience. That's no easy feat- I hope you realize that.
I too am an Athiest- with parents that believe in their god and live wonderful and fulfilling lives, with religion being a part of it. They too have instilled great values and ethics in me as wonderful, nurturing people. I don't believe in god(s), but I believe in being humane, honest, generous, kind and selfless when I am at my best. I also know I am flawed, confused, mean- and often wrong on the other side of the coin. It's the nature of mankind - knowing both good and evil. That's just pretty much a truth, religious/non-religious beliefs aside.
I don't think that people who believe in god are insane. I think they believe in something different than me- and that just makes us different, not unequal. It works both ways- as much I don't want to judge others for their beliefs- I don't wish them to judge me either.
I just want you to give yourself a little credit for your insight and take the compliment that someone has respect for you because you said something that gave them reason to feel that respect.
In my opinion "good people" exist regardless of whether or not they accept god. Bad people exist in both realms as well - they just justify and reconcile with it differently. Some beg for forgiveness from god, then find strength in that.... Others struggle with a guilty conscience and can find strength and hope from within.
I'm surprised to run into politically correct agnostics and atheists on here. They are traitors when they take sides with christians in anything. This is why christianity has so much power and influence in our government and state department today.
I'm surprised to run into politically correct agnostics and atheists on here. They are traitors when they take sides with christians in anything. This is why christianity has so much power and influence in our government and state department today.
Im an atheist and I would love to see the world fall under the staff of Rome
I know thats not going to happen though which is why my back up plan is for the restoration of the Hohenzollern Monarchy
Last edited by burning 4 revenge; 17th April 2008 at 1:28 AM.
I'm surprised to run into politically correct agnostics and atheists on here. They are traitors when they take sides with christians in anything. This is why christianity has so much power and influence in our government and state department today.
Well, I am Canadian- so religion and politics don't mix here. No one would run with a platform imbedded in a religious affiliation because they would never win. Religious beliefs are rarely discussed- besides perhaps the morality issue of gay marriage that has some religious opponents.
No one is a traitor to anything simply because they have different spiritual beliefs. What makes me a traitor? The fact that I care about humanity as a whole- accepting that diveristy in beliefs is a part of free speech? my brother loves AC/DC and I am passionate about Greenday. We're never going to go to a concert together and celebrate the other's taste... but I love him despite our differences, and quite franky I really only care about him as a whole person- not just a belief he has that differs from mine.
Same goes with parents- am I a traitor for loving them because they go to church and I choose not to?
That's just a silly arguement- and it's based on hate and anger that has no room in my scope of whom I choose to be friends with. Sounds as if someone has a degree from the "University of Ridiculousity".
If someone is going to tell me I am going to hell because I don't believe in god- you're right I will get defensive. A spiritual person should take offense to me or anyone else telling them they are stupid for embracing their faith.
let go of the anger- it's not pretty or indiciative of someone who has the ability to see shades of grey in between the black and white. Insight and understanding equal tolerance. you dont' have to agree with someone to like or understand them.
A spiritual person doesn't need your approval to feel good about their life- nor do you need anyone but yourself to approve of what you believe in.
You need a better argument. Yeah- I am an athiest... tolerant of the things that make people different. Aware of why I have made the decision I have made---- but have also made an effort to research the other side of the coin in a formalized unbiased atmosphere. I am a religious Studies Major- and an Athiest- do you know what that has taught me? Empathy, in a nutshell.
hate isn't productive or necessary no matter what side of the fence you choose to hang out on. I'll still shake my neighbours hand as long as they shake mine with the same sincerity.
I don't want to live in a country where religion and politics mix and clash as a rule.... or as leverage to win a race that should be about bettering the country's population as a unit.
There's no place for religion in politics in my books- but there's no reason to generalize and have contempt for those who are different. It's not being a traitor to your beliefs because you have a different belief system than the person standing beside you. I rountinely disagree with people on important issues and beliefs- but I can accept them an love them regardless.
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