[yes]

while in some cultures women are indeed encouraged to stand up for themselves more than in other ones, standing up for yourself has nothing to do with being ABUSIVE or AGGRESSIVE

-yes

[FreeMe]

yes: Just said that

[Fritz]

Originally posted by moimeme
There is a tendency, as Jenny said, to resort to taking comfort in generalizations when one is frustrated and cynical. So the betrayed woman decides that all men are cheaters and liars. You know that to extrapolate from your own anecdotal evidence to the general is fallacious.

a. Women, you get what you asked for;.......big macho lugs seem to win, caring, gentle educated men lose. So does this mean in order to marry I must become a boozing, macho, swaggering louse?

One of the biggest, and most ridiculous myths. Generally perpetuated by 'gentle, nice guys' who are woefully unable to see or acknowledge their own flaws. My ex continually described himself as a 'nice guy'. He hadn't the slightest concept of how not nice he was. So I tend to look askance at these 'nice guys' who believe this BS. A second point about this is that I am sure these 'nice guys' have not spent a whole lot of time getting to know the 'jerks' they think are getting the women who may not be 'jerks' at all. Bottom line on this little myth: BOGUS.

Hmm, I have to agree and disagree on this one. I think there is some merit to the "myth" these days in the US/western world. Is it always true? Definately not. I think it has to do with general trends in society, as in increased matieralism, consumerism, lookism and several other "isms". People are basically becoming more selfish. What can you do for me? Hmm? Its all about "me, me, me" and those who are of the "nice" category end up getting stomped on and thus bitter (both men and women).

I don't deny that a lot of "bitter" guys n gals probably don't look inward to see how not nice they are (or their ingrained patterns of choosing bad partners) but its hard to ignore so many stories of people getting screwed over. My experience has been nice guys try to save the girl (misplaced or foolhardy chivalry), girl screws over guy in the end. Nice gal tries to "change" jerk, gets screwed over. Us "nice folk" just seem to have a problem hooking up together for some reason or another.

[moimeme]

Hmm? Its all about "me, me, me" and those who are of the "nice" category end up getting stomped on and thus bitter (both men and women).

If you buy a house that falls down, it's not the house's fault. If you buy a car that loses its wheels, it's not the car's fault. Don't blame people for your poor judgment. I'll bet you that somewhere along the line, you ignored red flags. I'll bet that you maybe even picked these people against your own better judgement.

Yes, it is nice to make allowances, but it is foolish to make too many allowances. I've done that. More times than I can count. I am not bitter. I don't blame a single soul but me. It's not about being 'nice' or not. It's about learning to discern what connotes a red flag (i.e. sign that future behaviour will continue to be unpleasant) and then to understand that if you go forward beyond the red flags, you are in for trouble.

The other extreme is to dismiss someone when you think you see a hint of red out of the corner of your eye. 'Nice' people never jump to conclusions prematurely, rather they hang in there in an attempt to be loyal and faithful. None of this is bad.

Rather than complaining about all this, learn. Become wise. Figure out what a red flag is and is not. Continue to make allowances, but understand there's a point where it's counterproductive to do so.

As for changing and saving people, that's just foolish. You can't change someone who has no intention of changing nor save someone who doesn't realize he is lost. Those are endeavours doomed to failure right from the start - again, you haven't been 'nice', you've been foolish. Big difference. Take it from one who knows.

[MarKus]

Originally posted by fredrolin
I know several smart educated attractive women who only date losers. Why? some like "The Bad Boy" or they go for looks.
It seems like every time they date a "normal" guy as in the quote above, they find them boring, wishy washy or less of a challenge.

I can agree with that, thay usually go for the *******s that treat them like dirt

[Melodic]

I can agree with that, thay usually go for the *******s that treat them like dirt

That's equivalent to one of the ladies on the board stating that men only go out with women whose breast are bigger than her brain.

In other words, it's bs an you should know better. There are some women brought up to believe that they are worth little more than dirt who don't mind being treated like it, but the same goes for men.

That being said, there is no excuse for abuse whether it be visited upon males, females, children, or animals. The fact that you were drawn to abusers is not in fact your fault and should never be taken as such. However, it is important to recognize the capability for abuse in people and work to avoid it.

All women are not snakes or evil. Some men and women are capable of healthy relationships. If you don't yet believe that after years in therapy, I might start therapist.

I personally suffered some catastrophic sexual abuse as a young child. I was able to after a couple of months in therapy belive that not all men were pigs who wanted to hurt me, and now I've been in a perfectly healthy relationship for 3 years. Mind you, I am still concerned about your passive-aggressive attitude towards women in general. This is something that your therapist should have begun conquering long ago. If your recent relationships have set you back, then maybe you should make a pact not to be in one until you feel you can respect and not have latent hostile feelings toward women again. However, you know that that is personal choice. Please let us know how you are doing.

Good luck.
Mel

[meanon]

I was going to post this elsewhere but was unable to do so:

Hopeless, I was intersted in your angry women thread and will reply later. In case I miss you as you whirl out of here in a fury let me say that two things strike me:

You said in the earlier thread you were suspicious of the women on the forum, they needed to prove themselves to you before you would deal with them. This is understandable given your experience but what has happened since shows that you have been ruthless in pursuit of that you dislike most and have then got very angry yourself when you have found some evidence that meets what you are looking for. Really if you are determined to find something, is it any wonder that you do? It means neither that people are as bad as you assume they are, nor that they are representative of the whole forum.

Secondly, it strikes me that be being so angry at everyone effectively prevents you doing what you came here for in the first place, getting help with a serious problem that has made you very unhappy. You are not the first person to have done this and you won't be the last. I could be wrong of course but please think about what is driving your reactions before you toss in the towel. Give yourself a chance. The only person who loses from you behaving like this is you.

[faux]

I can agree that the law favors women, and laws that are in place to protect against harassment, stalking, and abuse were set up for women and not men. Men are very often not taken seriously or treated fair in these situations. These laws need to seriously be revised, or at least the general attitude of law enforcement and the public needs to change.

It is far too easy for the bad women to go out and abuse these laws. I can understand how much easier it would be to be wronged by one of these women and direct your hatred to every woman alive. I hear stories often from attorneys about how a woman falsely accuses a man of something, makes his life hell in the process, and wins in court despite having no proof.

As to all women being evil this is entirely true. Also remember, however, that all men are evil as well. Humans all have a capacity for evil. Not all of them, man or woman, choose to be bad people though. Keep that in mind.

Now, are all women bad people? No. Just the ones that eat chocolate.

[moimeme]

No. Just the ones that eat chocolate.


Hmph. I resemble that.

Originally posted by hopeless
But simply assuming that I am selecting bad mates.......its an assumption.

I disagree that it's an assumption.

Who is the "common denominator" in all of these bad relationships you're involved in?

YOU.

Now before you get your boxers in a bunch, I am NOT SAYING that you are the reason the women you've been involved with have been abusive in one form or another. I am saying, however, that if you're continually ended up with the same kind of abusive girlfriend, it would stand to reason that there's "something" about this type of woman that you're:

a) either attracted to

b) that you attract

And you need to do some soul-searching to figure it out.

While living in the great province of BC myself, I got myself tangled up in a very abusive marriage (I'm a woman, by the way). Was it my first abusive relationship? Nope. My very first real relationship, that I had starting at the age of 18, was also abusive (not physical abuse like my marriage was, but emotionally, mentally and verbally). But back up a bit further. How was my childhood? I grew up with a very abusive Mother......who was physically, verbally, mentally and emotionally abusive and just downright cruel...and had she pulled what she did on me *TODAY*, she'd be locked up for many years to come.

So while you poo-poo the nothing of our childhoods (negative) playing a part in the type of partner we choose, let me tell ya........after years of soul searching and reflecting on WHY I so easily went from one abusive relationship to another, it occured to me that deep down inside, I maybe was "Drawn toward" abusive types....because that was "familiar" to me. The chaos and tension and feeling inadequate as a child crossed over into being a young adult.......and the reason I couldn't see the forest for the trees was because the trees felt like "home"...familiar, comfortable, even in a dysfunctional kind of way.

And deep down, even though it was subconscious, I was attracted to the common personality traits of abusive men: charming, obnoxious (err, overly confident and not afraid to speak their mind and stand up for themself), could make a room of strangers laugh, loved by everyone (course they didn't know what went on behind closed doors), charismatic, a challenge, etc. I suspect I had a type of subconscious 'radar' to pick these dudes out....AND....they had the radar to pick women like myself out: the type of woman who's very forgiving, who puts up with crap under the belief that it's good to be "forgiving", the type who is (I'm not anymore) somewhat insecure and would be more apt to "cling" to an abusive, cheating wanker than stand up for herself and leave.

I am opposed to anyone abusing anyone......male or female. I don't doubt for one minute that there are nasty women out there who abuse men. As an ex-abused woman, I have no tolerance for any human being who abuses another.

Have you sat down and tried to figure out a common thread between these bad women you end up involved with? I bet if you do, you'll find very common traits among them all.....traits you're very much drawn to....traits you need to learn to identify so that you can better "pick out" a potential "bad partner" in the future.

I've found from my own experiences with abusive men, there are definite and clear "red flags" to take note of very early on:

-flip out over the littlest of things..and make a huge deal out of something not going their way
-major road rage
-a dysfunctional relationship with their mother.......either a blatant disrespect for her, OR a blatant "love/hate" relationship.....where they speak to her and treat her like crap a lot of the time, but are very very protective of her and would defend her to their death as well.
-a problem with booze or drugs......both of which totally exacerbate their ugliness (abusiveness)
-a blatant disregard for people's feelings in general.......whether it's the waiter at the restaurant, or the guy in front of them at the red light who doesn't step on the gas quite "quickly enough" when the light turns green (you get my drift).
-very soon into the relationship, an obvious desire to try and "change me"..whether it's how I dress, what I do in bed, what friends I hang out with, how often I talk to family on the phone, etc etc.
-has a hard time telling the truth, even when it comes to little things
-selfish and will not stand to NOT get their own way; unable to compromise
-always has to have the last word
-commonly refers to female coworkers or exes as "b*tches" or other derogatory names
-when the issue of domestic abuse comes up (usually brought up by me, just to get a sense of how they react to this topic), they strangely have not much to say about it, OR they are OVERLY dramatic about how horrible it is OR else they don't acknowledge the fact that women are abused and they go on and on about some ex of theirs that abused them.

These are just some of the red flags I've identified, from trial and error, and fine-tuning my intuition over the years.

Also........you and your friends......what kind of places are you going to meet these women you end up with? For an example, if you're all meeting them at upscale clubs or something......and they all turn out to be spoiled, bratty, golddigging, selfish, temper-tantrumish witches..well, maybe you all need to meet women somewhere else, you know? (that's just an example).

Originally posted by MarKus
I can agree with that, thay usually go for the *******s that treat them like dirt

Yes, and that may be very common and true, and it may seem very insane and hard to grasp....but I'll share with you, as an ex abused woman (several abusive relationships, including an abusive childhood), why this MAY be the case. It may help to explain why a lot of women DO choose the "bad boy" jerk over the proverbial "nice guy."

I grew up in a chaotic, tension-filled abusive home (my mom). I don't have a whole lot of good memories of growing up. But I do have a lot of memories of being yelled at, belittled, berated, feeling inadequate, becoming horribly shy and having no self confidence, always having to walk on eggshells in an attempt to be accepted by my mother (which was really never possible). This is what I came to know as "growing up".......I'm sure for many years there, I figured this was just "the norm"......and that to be loved, to be worthy of being loved and accepted, you had to earn it (but that you really never fully could). Each day was a challenge. Fighting everyday to be loved and to feel accepted by your parent is not a healthy way to live.

So I went onto one abusive relationship to the next. Ironically, in college, I did a paper on Domestic Violence against women.....as I did my research for the paper, which involved going to our local battered women's shelter and interviewing the director of the shelter (a former battered woman herself) and reading Lenore Walker's book on the Cycle Theory of Violence.....and then discussing my paper with my classmates, I recall how I smugly and arrogantly professed that I would NEVER let a man hit me, and if he did, he'd be gone......that I was no dummy. Though ironically enough, at that time, I was in a very abusive relationship (not physical, but everything else) and I didn't even have a freakin' foggy clue.

That first real relationship, that happened to be abusive, paved the way for me to get involved in another abusive relationship..only this one was much shorter and did involve physical abuse. I remember thinking how "smart" I was that I didn't put up with that "crap" for long.......but within a year, I was with my now ex husband, and on the path to a hellish marriage filled with not only physical/emotional/verbal/mental abuse, but sexual abuse, too. But hell, by that point I didn't even realize it.

I guess deep down I felt that "love" (or gaining someone's love) was synonymous with being worthy of it, and I guess that I just wasn't yet worthy of it. And while most women wouldn't have put up with the yelling and spitting and name-calling and belittling and walking on eggshells and trying unsuccessfully to be "perfect", I just reallly believed that this was "normal married life" and the price I had to pay to be loved and valued.

Years later, I went on to be in my first NON abusive relationship. He was a liar, but he didn't abuse me at all. AND I WAS BORED OUT OF MY TREE!! Whenever we'd have a disagreement about something, I was annoyed with his refusal to yell or scream or show some passion!! You see, I associated "love" with someone showing anger and rage and passion and being out of control. And he was none of the above. In fact, he was the type to resort back into his "cave" and he would clam right up and not even want to talk.........and I found myself feeling unloved and like I wasn't "worth" getting all riled up for. I ended up losing respect for him as a man because he was, by comparison to my other relationships, "passive" .......and it drove me nuts.

So.....perhaps this helps to shed a little light on WHY a lot of women choose the bad boys over the nice guys....it's because they began their relationships with bad boys, that type of relationship (however dysfunctional) is all they "know" and because of that, they've developed very dysfunctional expectations and perceptions of what being shown love and feeling accepted are all about.

[meanon]

Now, I know what you women will say. WHAT DID YOU DO TO MAKE HER THAT ANGRY?

Really I know no-one who would respond that way. Most would respond exactly as to a man.

i am drawn to abusive women out of a pattern of behavior, it could be true, but just as likely that women like to abuse

Surely you see the parallel argument with female victims of domestic violence all the time (all men are b*stards) yet you know that's not true. Your views are a direct parallel. Most people are not violent in the way you describe.

It is not just as likely that women like to abuse. Some women do but there is no evidence that they are in the majority. There is a body of research on domestic violence. It seems just as likely to you because all the women you know have behaved like this. To say you choose women with this problem is not to blame you - they are entirely to blame for their actions. If this happened to you in childhood, you learned that the people who loved you, who you loved would also hurt. You learned that these things came as a package. They made you learn that, it was not your fault. You are simply applying the lessons of childhood, as we all do.

Hopeless - you say you have wasted thousands on therapy. Success rates vary but I really would advise you to persist, try to find someone with whom you have empathy and who has a generalist approach they can adapt to suit your needs, rather than being tied to any specific school of therapy. Or you could try a psychiatrist if you have not already done so.

Good luck