then I've mistaken. Based on much of your posting I thought you believed humans should control their natural emotionally driven erges, and that morality, seated at the helm of cognition, should be our guide against the evils of .......adultery, for example.
There is a difference, Samson, between being able to summon up sufficient rationality to analyze a situation and intercede to prevent a rapid-fire emotional response in the moment in the heat of a discussion and having time, during the planning stages of an affair, to think about what one is planning to do and consider it rationally. That should be fairly obvious even to someone intent on ridiculing my position.
Thirdly if every time either of us fail to get the confirmation we need, why would we continue to do it a second, third, fourth,...nth time especially if the result is to "retreat to pain and respond from the anger of self-protection." This would seem less than positive reinforcement for the behavior, wouldn't it?
Oh, that's not even the beginning of a useful point. Why would people continue to get drunk if they puke when they get drunk? Why would they go to sports games where their teams lose? Why would they gamble when they continue to lose? Even someone who thinks humans are rational all of the time would have to admit that people do not only do things for 'positive reinforcement'. We are, after all, a little more complex than rats.
Finally, the best for last, you speculate that I "interpret her actions within the context of what [I] need to know (if she loved me she'd get a job and relieve me of this burden)?" I am male, and not within the 15% of the male population that would be most likely to ask this question that would be more commonly considered among 85% of females.
Right. Macho man. How could I mistake you for someone with a heart?
My fear is freezing in the dark under a bridge 25 years from now because my wife refused to work and allow us to save present dollars for inflated future costs.
Got news for you. People who live in seething states of near-anger tend to die young of heart disease anyway. So I'd not worry a whole heck of a lot about it.
AND: I'll be damned if I don't begin to sound some alarms around here letting her know about these realities so that her feeling won't be hurt!
As Dr. Phil would say "How's that working for you?" What was that about the rational person not repeating non-productive actions?
__________________
I expect to pass through this world but once. Any good, therefore, that I can do or any kindness that I can show to my fellow creatures, let me not defer nor neglect it, for I shall not pass this way again.
I don't Moimeme....I'm thinking Samson should keep a journal of his counseling adventures' and do a Dr Phil rebuttal book....called 'Counseling SUCKS Phil'.......LMAO!
I must admit I've sort of thought of the situation where Samsons wife finds out about LS and reads the HELL-series. I can't help but chuckle a little. I'm sorry Sam, but I'm just the kind of guy that runs after a fire truck to see where the fire is.
One of the advantages of being a ghost is that you cannot be injured or killed. So she reads these posts.....what can she do? I haven't embellished reality, regardless of whatever anyone might "presume."
In fact, it is quite a realistic probability. She did read my first LS post.
Well Moimeme, you are the martyr, intent on posting regardless of my “intent on ridiculing [your] position.” If disagreeing with illogical arguments is ridicule, then I am indeed guilty as charged. But once again, I’ll clearly state, that your posts are most thought provoking and appreciated, regardless of the mental gymnastics that must be completed before following whatever point you have intended to make.
By the way, to all those who have had positive and supportive comments, please do not interpret the absence of reply as an unappreciative response. I value your posts as much as Moimeme. But I empathize with her feelings of being “ridiculed.” I feel her pain regardless of being “mistaken for someone with a heart,” and must address her posts before my “seething state of near-anger” kills me!!!! (I’d actually appreciate the irony of someone finding my cold body hunched over the keyboard with this sentence on the screen)
Now, back to it. Like I suspected, and you have confirmed, you are despite any denial, a moral relativist. You have made this very clear:
“There is a difference, Samson, between being able to summon up sufficient rationality to analyze a situation and intercede to prevent a rapid-fire emotional response in the moment in the heat of a discussion and having time, during the planning stages of an affair”
The recognition that different circumstances require different responses is the definition of moral relativism. Given your moral relativistic logic, then anyone acting spontaneously (or, perhaps more conveniently, emotionally) would then be perfectly justified in proceeding with an affair. And how do we know that emotion must exist only “in the moment.” Passion cannot be more than momentary, and therefore cannot exist “during the planning stages of an affair?” This seems to go against the grain of every norm that defines an affair.
“We are, after all, a little more complex than rats.” Well, how can anyone disagree? Although I have met some that might not live up to this expectation. My point was not to compare our behavior to rats. My point was that there are ulterior motives: we’re seeking reward through our actions and the very definition of irrational behavior is activity that harms us. All your examples, excessive drinking, gambling, etc., etc., are excellent examples of aberrant behavior and justly so. I’m simply adding to the list: Seeking, multiple times, to receive “confirmation,” failing multiple times, and living with with the painful result.
“As Dr. Phil would say "How's that working for you?" At this early stage, I guess I’d just have to tell Dr. Phil that I was not “counting my chickens before they hatched.” I’d suppose he’d understand that I don’t expect any real change in our ability to communicate to happen after less than one month of counseling.
If it is a secret, then I'm not telling anyone, including myself, but, frankly, I'd be surprised if she bothered: there's not any new ground to cover for her here.
Now, back to it. Like I suspected, and you have confirmed, you are despite any denial, a moral relativist. You have made this very clear:
“There is a difference, Samson, between being able to summon up sufficient rationality to analyze a situation and intercede to prevent a rapid-fire emotional response in the moment in the heat of a discussion and having time, during the planning stages of an affair”
The recognition that different circumstances require different responses is the definition of moral relativism
Ah, well, no, really. That would only be true were we discussing morality, and even so, to be logical, you'd need to change the premise quite a bit. We aren't discussing morality. At least I'm not. I was referring to the immediate reaction your spouse had to a statement of yours. I'm saying that a rapid reaction to a situation can bypass 'think' and go straight to 'emote'. We are built that way; it's our lifesaver when we need to duck without pondering the niceties of how and what posture to adopt while ducking. It's quite a different thing to have an affair (and really I should not have used that example since we're headed back into THAT debate yet again). I am saying an affair. Not a drunken-grope-turning-into-sex. An affair that requires thought.
The instantaneous response of an individual to moment of real or perceived physical or emotional pain is definitely a different situation to the planning, wondering, and pondering people go through prior to undertaking most other actions.
I feel her pain
Really, I'm perfectly well. Dealing with crochety curmudgeons amuses me greatly.
I don’t expect any real change in our ability to communicate to happen after less than one month of counseling.
Somebody's got to drop the wall. Mind you, it's a pretty scary prospect. But here's a little trick, Samson. Scratch anger, and almost always underneath there's pain. Find and purge or heal the pain and all of a sudden the anger will vanish. Yeah, yeah, I know. Pain is for wussies and you're a MAYUN.
Originally posted by Samson
So she reads these posts.....what can she do? I haven't embellished reality, regardless of whatever anyone might "presume."
Actually, what you've given us is YOUR "reality." Hers may be something totally different.
One of the 'ladies' mags' alwyas had (may still have) a feature called 'Can This Marriage Be Saved'. It was fascinating to read the interviews with both partners.
I've been to couples counselling with my Bunnyboy, who also occassionally hops around LS, and it's amazing the things you think you know, only to find out, you had it wrong. It taught us to always check what the other person is "really" trying to say, rather than assuming. Still hard to do, but we try!
Hope you get to that point too Samson, and that it can help you and your wife.
Please note: The suggestions and advice offered on this web site are opinions only and are not to be used in the place of professional psychological counseling or medical advice. If you or someone close to you is currently in crisis or in an emergency situation, contact your local law enforcement agency or emergency number.
It taught us to always check what the other person is "really" trying to say, rather than assuming. Still hard to do, but we try!
Hybrid Mode
