That was very eloquent, Enigma. Although I have read a lot on the subject, your description of what goes through the cheater's mind is about the best I've read.
Sounds like your friend Mary had the life sucked right out of her and I think that was what was happening to me the last three years of my marriage. If it hadn't been for my work life I would have completely disappeared. I am told I look and act younger and happier lately - trying to be perfect all the time leads to imperfection I think. Pretty ironic.
Cheating healthy? No - can it be constructive? Yes, if it short-lived, the cheater realizes what an incredible mistake they made and what a prize their spouse really is and everyone can move forward with a renewed sense of committment. I certainly wouldn't recommend it as a 'fix' to relationship problems though.
End of the marriage? except in the instances above, usually yes, unless the betrayed hangs on and lives in constant fear, distrust, and ultimate misery.
Monogamy for life? Biologically they say no - to propagate the species the male wants to mate with as many as possible. But we are more than our biological selves. It's a choice everyone has to make for themselves and hopefully they hurt as few people as possible in the process.
OK, enigma, I'm an adulterer (the sexual affair ended about 8 months ago). Let's see how your quite gripping description of an adulterer's mental geography correspond's to my experience. In other words, let's see how well you mapped me.
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When one turns away from their immediate partner and looks elsewhere for their spiritual, emotional and/or sexual needs, they have already vacated that relationship even if not physically. Infidelity depletes the primary relationship of the honesty, trust, emotional intimacy and mutual respect that is essential for building and maintaining a solid foundation.
I agree. Emotional affairs are as deadly as sexual ones. Emotional affairs frequently auger sexual ones.
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For the cheater, infidelity requires that one must first dehumanize their primary partner (whether consciously or subconsciously) in order to justify their behavior and delegate blame. They would not be able to work around their guilt otherwise. They must also convince themselves that are simply a ‘victim of circumstance’ (or fate) and therefore not in control of their emotions and actions. This requires an unhealthy amount of mental denial. Subsequently, they become fixated on only the negative aspects of their primary relationship while focusing solely on the unrealistic positive qualities of their secondary one. In short, they must detach themselves from reality in order to perpetuate the fantasy.
Sorry, this does not describe me. I knew what I was doing and accepted responsibility for my conduct. Also, I never blamed anyone else for my actions. I never demonized my wife. I did, however, fall in love with the other woman (who, by the way, was married). And yes, affairs do have powerful fantasy components. In a freudian sense, marriage represents the reality principle, an affair represents the pleasure principle.
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More so, the adulterer further jeopardized the integrity of the primary relationship by becoming adept at lying and manipulation. The fear of “getting caught” only adds to the stress and emotional burden of the primary relationship. The cheater must work hard to fabricate alibis in order to keep his/her secret life from being discovered. After all, ‘discovery’ means the abrupt end of one’s fantasy and self imposed denial. It means suddenly having to deal with ‘reality,’ and thereby being forced to confront the very relationship issues he/she has been working so hard to avoid.
You're right on target, here. The "double life" burden is onerous.
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Undeniably, the pain created by infidelity is inevitable and unavoidable – as is the damage to the primary relationship which is often irreversible.
Again, and quite sadly, you're on the money. That's a fair description.
All in all, you did an excellent job of delving into the mind of an adulterer.
Last edited by bark; 19th November 2003 at 5:39 PM..
All in all, you did an excellent job of delving into the mind of an adulterer.
Hardly just a “lucky guess.” Although I have never cheated myself, my education comes from being the naïve bystander on the other end of an affair…as well as the many people I have worked with and personal friends in my life who often felt too comfortable confiding in me.
And I never used the word “demonized.” I used the term “dehumanize.” As in your case, while you accepted responsibility for your actions, you also claimed in a previous post that your wife “did not care.” How would you even know how your wife felt about your affair if you never respected her enough as an ‘equal’ partner to tell her? How can you so easily assume that she has no feelings regarding the matter if you never cared enough about her as a person to ask?
Is this not also a form of “dehumanizing?” And when you were with your ‘soul mate’ did you ever say anything negative about you wife or your relationship to justify your behavior to the other woman?
My educated guess is that you did…
After all, the two of you certainly weren’t sitting around singing your spouses’ praises in those stolen moments when you were together. If you were, the affair would have never gotten past the initial attraction.
Denial …Denial… Denial!
But I imagine you’d make an excellent criminal defense attorney.
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"It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” ~ Mark Twain
Last edited by EnigmaXOXO; 19th November 2003 at 6:13 PM..
That's it in a nutshell. Self-sacrifice has gone out of style. In a society where one is constantly urged to 'fuflil yourself', 'follow your desires', etc., nobody aspires to nobility. Qualities like self-denial used to be honoured and admired. Now somebody who does such a thing is considered stupid.
Oh, and my but people who engage in selfishness get on their high horses to defend themselves with all manner of high-falutin' excuses. They will do so eloquently and passionately. Really, though, it is a vain attempt to persuade themselves that the wrong they have done is, somehow, justifiable.
Why do I use the word 'wrong'? Because I firmly believe that hurting someone else is wrong. Much more so when that person loves and trusts you.
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I expect to pass through this world but once. Any good, therefore, that I can do or any kindness that I can show to my fellow creatures, let me not defer nor neglect it, for I shall not pass this way again.
Oh, and my but people who engage in selfishness get on their high horses to defend themselves with all manner of high-falutin' excuses. They will do so eloquently and passionately. Really, though, it is a vain attempt to persuade themselves that the wrong they have done is, somehow, justifiable.
There you go again, moimeme. The only person on her "high horse" is you. If you had BOTHERED reading my post to enigma you would have noticed I agreed with the overwhelming majority of her astute observations. What I won't do, my darling, is slit my wrists in apology. Sorry.
Also, dear, if you want to flame someone at least have the courtesy and candor to name the person whom you're flaming. I am not "people" or "they", I am bark. Don't resort to cheap rhetorical devices. At least be honest as opposed to your usual passive-aggressive self. And remember, as you like to say, "do no harm."
Location: Alberta (Born in the Hometwon of the Calgary Flames!!)
Posts: 1,422
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Why do I use the word 'wrong'? Because I firmly believe that hurting someone else is wrong. Much more so when that person loves and trusts you.
So if a person was to keep it a secret then (the old saying what they dont know wont hurt them) and doesnt "hurt" that person for all the right reasons..... and there are people who do have full intentions of all the right reasons..... then i guess that makes it ok?.... because in fairness for whatever reasons the adulterer gives in essence he/she does not want to 'hurt' anybody..... so the affair could carry on for years.... etc..... quite much like of years and years ago for example George Washington.... not quite sur eif his wife knew of the affairs etc..... but in those days marriages did not rip apart.... even when they did find out their were affairs going on..... so i guess as time changes so does peoples opinions but do they change because it is the "Norm" or do they change because that is an actual opinion of how they feel due to experience or are they sitting on their high horse and casting judgement among people they have no clue about and insist they would NEVER fall upon that decision in there lives?.... now a days depending on who you talk to having an affair is the norm..... although in some peoples eyes not morally/socially acceptable..... who gives them the right to make a judgement on the adulterer? who gives them the right to say its morally unacceptable or socially?... theyve done research of monogamy on animals and some animals are devoted to their life mate.... some have many partners..... so my question then is for one who bases so much of life theory on facts from animal research etc regardinmg possible link to human behavior.... i guess its fair to say its as well the norm to have more than one mate? and who are we to despute such findings in research?
Location: Alberta (Born in the Hometwon of the Calgary Flames!!)
Posts: 1,422
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example George Washington
ROFL OK so it wasnt george boy! BUT IT WAS JEFFERSON!!! lmao i did have good intentions im just not up with american presidents... for god sakes im canadian.... lol
but what got you in that SPOT/PREDICAMENT in the first place??????.....
It apparently doesn't take much for a married man to offer to have sex with one. These were friends. I treated them as friends only. I almost never saw them alone. One was a pal before he got married. Another was not even my friend; his wife was more so. I knew him but not well. Still, I got offers in broad daylight fully clothed outdoors after what I thought was just our regular association. No innuendo. No flirting. NOTHING. Poof - suggestions of affairs.
And don't tell me there's no other woman on this site who hasn't refused at least one married guy in these circumstances.
Last edited by moimeme; 19th November 2003 at 9:23 PM..
So we should jump off the bridge just because "having an affair is the norm"?
Sorry, not buying it.
And unfortunately for bark, it wasn't a "perfectly good family". He could have left and still been a father to his kids but not been untrue to his marriage.
I don't think bark felt he was accurately portrayed as an adulterer but somehow he got around his conscience, whether by dehumanizing his wife or deciding his needs superceded everyone elses. That bothers many of us who are adverse to hurting other people in this manner, especially the ones we love.
bark does present a good argument - made Rainbow feel he was right and in need of defense. bark is not defenseless Rainbow, save the vitriol for defense of a weaker poster.
My life view is hurting others is wrong. Period. Lying, cheating, theft, bigotry, prejudice - you name it, if it hurts somebody it is wrong. That's it. We are not here to cause pain to others, particularly to satisfy our own selfish desires.
Where is the part about denying, ignoring, taking the other spouse for granted. Does that not hurt someone? It is b/c it is a side of hurt that no one has ever cared to look at . We automatcially have to try and figure out why the denying spouse is hurt. Again, I have to say that people don't just decide one day, I think I'll have an affair and throw the entire marriage away.. It is a slow dying process.
If you ever were to find yourself in this situation you may view it alittle different. I hope Bark and I are on the board that day. I don't feel that b/c you read ann landers and dear abby that makes you an expert on the dynamics of infidelity.
Express as you wish, please remember Bark and I were people who came for guidance and support and we are mentally torturing ourselves every waking moment and I certainly do not need other people to make me feel as I am a horrible person for my situation.
Could you morally blast a friend who had just confided in you that she had an abortion? Good friend.
Location: Alberta (Born in the Hometwon of the Calgary Flames!!)
Posts: 1,422
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Please give me an example of this where self denial was admired
Mother Theresa
Ghandi
Buddha
Christ
Saints
Will that do?
Oh and their admirations of self denial were pertinent in the same boat as us commoners????? I mean in ordinary people.... im sorry but unfortunately i have never turned water into wine.... nor have i entered into saint hood, lets keep this at a level where we dont bring religious figures into it please..... im talking at a level moimeme if you could just slowly lower yourself off the horse and give me examples of ordinary people...... i guess what im trying to say is your still not selling me on your self righteousness..... I dont buy all the crap of socially/morally acceptable.... and i still see you throwing stones off your big pony..... im sorry if i dont model myself after these people however...... i am only human.....
Location: Alberta (Born in the Hometwon of the Calgary Flames!!)
Posts: 1,422
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I reiterate: YOUR ARMED FORCES
is that the whole army or just part of it?... see..... i guess you can only give an assumption or a generalization..... so your holier than thou virtues against adulterers has worn thin...... and im not convinced. so while youve tried so hard to cram your thoughts down peoples throats and pass judgements in your sometimes patronizing ways.... i will never be convinced you have any viable proof to back dat azz up....
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