[Gator]

And why would she try an string me along by sayiing she only wants a 'break' for awhile, spread her wings, and see how it goes for two months? Again the dating I agreed with, its the weekend sleep over with a stranger I'm having a hard time visualizing. I know if this person were a pipefitter this wouldn't be happing, I know its about money and status. I'm wondering how a successful northeastern attorney could be caught up in a rushed sense of intimacy and how he could respect her as well. I got to know her for almost four months and still didn't have any preconceived ideas of what was going to happen.

She tells me he's given up his practice at 38 to move here and run a golf course. Could be a line but who knows. I feel suckered and stuped, and yes, chumped. I may have been an ass with my affection but I loved her unconditonally, and now its time to heal. But I dont care to see her face tomorrow and I"m going to have to when I pick up my work's equipment.

You have given me great reasurrance Midori. When she calls me (and I know she will) do I return calls? Drop her like a hot potato? It's obvious I lost my lover and best friend all in one swoop, but how much of a best friend could she have been to have such little regard for our relationship? I NEVER saw this coming, not after spending the fourth with her family and the night at her house less than a week later.

Thanks Midori. My prayers are with you as well as you continue to not only move toward the life you deserve, but your unselfish attitude toward helping others. Thanks.

GAtor

[midori]

Get the stuff. Give her the remote. Take the underwear and throw it out when you get home.

You should recognize that, among her countless shortcomings, MWTD is not going to be able to do the right thing. Even though she knows what it is. She knows that she has no business in your life, that she cannot support you emotionally, that she cannot tolerate your involvement with your kids, your other responsibilities. Etc. But she's too selfish and weak to close the door herself. You are going to have to do it. You will have to become the Heartless One who Ends Things.

By giving you continued access to her house, and her life, she effectively entices you into staying around while absolving herself of responsibility for you remaining there. She knows she's not good for you. But she likes the things you provide her with and doesn't want to give you up. If, after what she's done, you CHOOSE to stick around, that's not her fault. You've seen what she's capable of, she has given you "fair" warning. Is it her fault that you're overly generous and forgiving? Is it her fault that you still love her and want to be with her? Nope. Then she's free to be her old, flakey, irresponsible self AND have you. She doesn't have to live up to your standards of responsibility and decency, because you will have chosen to be with her even after seeing that she's not responsible or decent (or kind or trustworthy or healthy).

She knows she's not up to what you are. Until this cheating episode, being with you implicitly meant that she needed to try to be worthy of you. Now, if you come back even after she has betrayed you, she need not worry about that. And she can also look down on you a bit, as a weak person who allows himself to be used and discarded at her whim.

She has thrown down the gauntlet: deal with my behavior as any reasonable person would (by leaving and never looking back), or accept the enormously flawed person that I am with the understanding that I am not going to change.

If you allow her back into your life after this, no ultimatum in the future will carry any weight. She'll know that no matter how much you're hurt, no matter how awful she is, you'll stick with her. You'll rationalize things, make excuses, create ways to live with the crap she dishes out.

Give back the remote, get back your equipment and anything else you can think of that she has. Discard anything she has given you. You need to erase her from your life. This woman is not someone you want to expose your children to. If you can't do it for your own sake, do it for theirs. In taking such a creature into your own life, you are foisting her onto them as well. Your relationship with her will affect them. Do you want your kids to be affected, however indirectly, by someone like her?

[midori]

Bring along someone else when you're picking up your stuff from her. Someone who doesn't know her or, better yet, someone who doesn't like her. Best of all, send someone else with the remote who will pick up the equipment and anything else that she needs to return to you.

If you can't find someone to accompany you, make plans to meet someone for dinner immediately after you pick up your stuff. Minimize the amount of time you spend at her place, don't create opportunities for conversation. There is nothing to discuss. Don't just make a lie about plans you have, make actual plans that would be difficult to break. If you're going to her place at 6:30, plan to meet someone elsewhere at 7:00. This should only be an exchange of property, which can't take more than 10 minues. If she's got other things to ask you -- "could you take a look at my kitchen faucet while you're here?" or "let me show you some pictures from the Fourth of July" -- you won't have the time. Believe me, you don't want to have the time.

[Gator]

Thanks Midori. I REALLY appreciate where you're coming from and will take your advice to the 't.'

Initially I thought she would have some sort of remorse or even think of me this weekend; maybe in time, she will. But i doubt it. Your posts from an inpartial point of view has really opened my eyes to the kind of person she is. She'll do this again. And based upon her relationship history, and the vagueness of how each relationship ended, reaffirms that this has probably happend before.

Seems she never got out of the 8th grade rut of 'going out' and 'breaking up' every time a guy smiles at her. I pity this guy if he's ends up being the father of her child, especially given that at 38 he is childless himself. For obvious reasons as well.

In the end this seems to be a blessing and someone is looking down on me. I dodged a HUGE bullet to the forehead. Love is unexplainable isn't it? I may be an intelligent, well adjusted man but love was blind. What I see so clearly know I never saw coming. LOL Now I"m beginning to be pissed off for allowing myself to be SO DUPED and allowing my kids to get close to her.

What is also unfortunate is the permanent disconnect between her family and I. I had grown close with her sister who lives here, her husband their kids. As a matter of fact, her two young nephews run up to me, past her, and give me a hug when we first see them at any family gathering. Every one of her family members, bar none, hug me and tell me how great it is to see me; and do the same when we leave. I felt a part of her family and grew to care for each and every one of them very much.

But I'm going to miss her nephews the most. They are the same age as my sons and we had both talked so extensively about how the family would grow. So sad.

So there you have it MIdori. Losses all the way around that obvisously she didn't care for at all. Or did she? Or does she still? Or is she literally going off the deep end after her friend died? So much of this makes sense due to past behavior, and so much doesn't.

Nonetheless, thank you for your support. You have been a savior.

Gator

[Gator]

Midori:

Do you think she has the slightest bit of heart to at least think of me this weekend and have any sort of guilt over what has happened?

[midori]

I'm glad I've been able to help, and I appreciate your good wishes.

She probably does love you in her way. But a person who isn't secure at their core cannot incorporate love into their life in a lasting, significant way. It has nothing at all to do with the person they love. Until person learns to love themselves and have faith in their ability to be a good person (despite mistakes), that person is never going to be able to truly love another person in a meaningful way.

I'll bet she really does admire you, respect you, and have affection for you. Doesn't mean she's capable of being with you. The problems are hers and they are for her to solve. I think you're right in comparing her to an eighth-grader. Adolescents often believe that they have to be perfect, that others won't love them or even like them if they have any flaws. Perversely, she is hugely flawed almost as if she's afraid to actually commit herself to trying to be a mature and healthy person. You can't change that for her. You're also right in thinking that she will continue to repeat this behavior with other men. She is a real big mess. She may well always be so.

You've been hurt but you've made it out without further entanglement. You'll get over the loss of her family members. After all, you have your own family, your own kids. Her nephews will be fine. Focus on your own kids.

No matter what went on in your marriage, and no matter how things end up with your wife, I think you'd be much better off devoting your energy to getting a healthy resolution with your wife. Try to get her into counseling with you. See if she'd be willing to talk to a clinical psychologist. Get yourself into a counseling situation. Between all that, your work, and your kids you ought to be too busy to spare much thought for MWTD.

Good luck.

[Gator]

Thank you so much Midori. You have been more help than you know by helping me sort all this out. Whether she thought of me this weekend mattered to me, I guess I wanted some reaffirmation that I meant something to her or that she still loves me. You're right, it just doesn't matter as she really isn't ready, nor is she capable, of the type of relationship she led me on to believe we had. Or never had. She doesn't have the mental makeup to really have a loving, committed relationship with any one man. That would force her to face problems head on and deal with the normal highs and lows of a loving, commited relationship. Her focus instead is on the superficial.

PART of my healing is knowing there wasn't really anything I could've done differently. This was predestined before we even met. The questions of: "Did I move too slow, did I show enough attention" are pointless. I blamed myself and know I see that it wasn't all me.

Thanks so much again. I am looking forward to being on the same plane as you in the months and years ahead. It sounds as though you're healing nicely as well. Continued good fortunes to you too!

Gator

[Gator]

Midori:

I"ll let you know how it goes tomorrow. Keep me in your thoughts.

Gator

[jenny]

generally, the only way toward empowerment in a given situation is to first take accountability. i am genuinely curious where you feel *you* are emotionally culpable in this whole situation - and i do not mean 'guilty of falling in love with a bad, bad, woman.'

i'm not asking you to construct yourself as the abuser; just as an equal player who made choices and must deal with the consequences of those **self-determined** choices.

it does not seem to me you can get out of this situation until you recognize that you got yourself into it; what the 'scarlet' woman does should be immaterial to the outcome.

again, please take this in the spirit of gentle challenge

[Gator]

Jenny :

I am more than willing to look myself in the mirror and take accuntability and responsibility; i.e empowerment.

But I have no idea what you mean!

I'm no dummy, just trying to understand what you're saying.

I dont blame her...or anyone for that matter. I simply shared her bed, encouraged her to go out and have a good time at her reunion, and I get a bomb dropped on me that she's inviting a man over she JUST met for the weekend because 'he's an ivy league graduate (I later learned he went to a city law school) who doesn't have the baggage of children to supprt. ' She even went on to say: "I admit it, I"m selfish and dont ever want a need for money." Well she's known how much I make for over 2 years and has been fine with this all along.

I came to this forum to ask how a person can be intimate and discuss life-long plans one day, and in less that 72 hours toss it all away after meeting someone for the first time in 20 years over a three hour period.

I'm on my own and have been for three months. My exwf and I have been discussing custody and $$. My exgf and I have been discussing marriage and moving on, most recently with her family over the fourth. On the 12th she meets this guy. What am I supposed to think? Recognize that it took 'two to tango?' I thought we were in love Jenny. This came out of left field.

You pose me as very intelligent and insightful. But how can I feel empowered with a two-by-four upside my head? LOL

[jenny]

giggles; thank you for taking this in the right spirit i have this great guy friend who never lets me indulge myself dramatically in co-dependence, and i want to pay his directness forward. and i totally accept that my last post was not very specific, let me try again.

so you're right, i do think, judging from how articulate your posts are, that you are very intelligent. you might be in love, but i think you are probably well aware of the picture of this relationship that you are creating.

too intelligent, in fact, not to look at your motives for chasing after someone that you have spent a considerable amount of font criticizing. all the information we have about this woman is filtered through you, and she sounds like one of the worst examples of humanity available. she sounds **unbelievably** callow. if i were her, and read this forum, at worst i would never talk to you again, if not sue you for libel. at best i would wonder what kind of weak man would need to love a woman that he also clearly despises.

so these are my more specific questions to you:

what ego gratification does this woman really offer you? sex, memories of high school, drama, but i kinda suspect she also causes you to feel powerful, judgemental, and stable.

does describing and contrasting her behaviour afford you, be honest, any pleasure? it seems to me that you contrast her drinking with your relative sobriety, her lifestyle with your wealth and earning potential, the poor opinion of her in her families' eyes to their positive opinion of you, and her instability with your steadfastness. all the reports about her may indeed be true, but you are also choosing to highlight and construct those differences in your writing. (i obviously don't know either one of you, i'm just responding to the information and tone available)

next, why did you continue with this woman and why do you still care? she has found a new rescuer type to play with; she is not even worth the amount of head-space you are giving her. we only have a certain amount of emotional energy per day, it sounds to me she is using a good 40% of yours.

to some degree, i believe love is a choice. we are not slaves to our hormones nor to our destructive patterns. in the spirit of my hypercandid friend, if you are not staying in a situation because of economic dependence or physical fear, there is something about the pattern that is giving you some kind of pleasure - this is where responsibility can be taken.

can you name one thing you did wrong in this whole situation? just one thing - is there any point at which you were not perfectly open, reliable, and almost saintly in your patience? is it possible that you would not now be wifeless, cuckolded by your mistress, and miserable, if you had not made a few mistakes? do you even feel that your infidelity was a huge mistake or do you feel that can that be justified by your wife's announcement?

again, please take this lovingly. i really dig it when people make me see that i can't change anyone but myself. i see confrontation as a sign of respect, but i realize not everyone enjoys it, so you are very cool for responding so well.

[midori]

I think Jenny has raised some interesting questions, although I guess her interpretation is not the same as my impression of Gator's situation.

This might be condensing too much into a neat little answer, but I wonder if the attraction to MWTD is the fact that, unlike Gator's wife, she was actually encouraging him to try to be in a relationship with her. From the sound of it, Gator's wife just withdrew & shut down. It's impossible to engage with someone like that. The appeal of MWTD (that's Ms. Walking Toxic Disaster, the ex-girlfriend) might have been that for all her terrible flaws, she gave him something to dig into, something to throw his energy and affection at.

His wife went so far as to tell him that she didn't love him and was only in the marriage for the kids' sake (I really do think she ought to be checked out for depression). That's gotta hurt, and it's cold and alienating. MWTD was not cold, at least. Quite the opposite, she was red hot with thoughtless passion, self-induced crises, and melodramatic schemes. Easy to get sucked into, and that might be quite appealing to someone who has been shut out by his wife.

Might have been a lot of things feeding into it. The important thing is to end it.

[jenny]

(giggling at self) - i think i'm intent on using the devil advocate's razor. i quite see your p.o.v midori - and normally i would be more sympathetic, but i'm skeptical only because we are having all these events narrated by a party that, despite his infidelity, seems to feels himself entirely blameless. (but please correct me if i'm wrong, Gator)

admittedly, i just dig accountability and rigourous introspection - i like the idea of someone saying - well, nevermind her dozens of flaws and mistakes - what is wrong in myself that i wanted this dynamic in my life? again, this might be personal preference.

out of interest, i have compiled a list of things wrong with this woman according to these posts:

-shallow
-drunk
-inability to form family relationships, many think poorly of her,
-evidently emerging from a maternal line of drunken, self-centered sluts
-promiscuous
-moody, unstable, finally crazy because of roomate's message
-unable to get a man to give her children
-overweight, though pretty (but don't forget shallow)
-fickle, and vulnerable to a few hours conversation with a man
-entrapping

i'm sure i'm missing a bunch, but ten was enough. it's interesting to compare this monstrous list with how well he thinks of himself. i actually hope, for her sake, she never has contact with him again.

i really would often take the side of a victim in these circumstances. but, honestly, something seems off here to me, though i am, of course, happy to be wrong. i'm certainly not keen on making forum enemies but this is my straight-up considered (and re-considered) opinion.

[midori]

I don't think anyone, including Gator, doubts that the relationship and his love for this woman is unhealthy. And I didn't get the impression that he thinks she tricked him into loving her; I think he is genuinely questioning why he was drawn to her, and why he's still stuck on her. He's also questioning her recent behavior, which is normal in the circumstances.

I took his listing her many, many flaws as a way of saying "why am I stuck on this woman, can someone please help me out of this situation?"

On the matter of his wife, I agree with you Jenny. He's far too detached from the situation, and would do better to focus himself on resolving that relationship than to spend another second wondering about MWTD. And at first I thought he was perhaps throwing himself into things with MWTD to provide justification for bailing out of his marriage -- "I can't help it, I'm in love with someone else." Which is what I think you're suggesting. But Gator later explained that his wife basically shut down and shut him out of her emotional life more than a year before he got in touch with the other woman. So I don't think it's entirely the case that he's got a bizarre madonna(wife)/whore(ex-gf) thing going on, or that he's obsessed with MWTD as a means of distracting himself from the way he treated his long-suffering wife.

That's the impression I got anyway. But like I said before I'm sure it's much more complicated than the rather simple analysis I offered.

[Gator]

I apprecicate both of your opinions and honestly look into what you both are saying as a means to heal and look at what honestly happened here.

Jenny: you think for her sake I you hope I dont contact her? lol What the hell did I do to her besides love her unconditionally? My marriage was over 18 months before we even said hello for the first time in over 20 years. You listed 10 things I have known all along about her but felt that yes, because she said over an over she loved me and wanted a lifetime together, I accepted. For better or for worse.

Midori's post hit it on the head: I'm just wondering how I could've believed her all along when within 36 hours of intimacy, and my support to go to her reunion and get her mind off of her friend, she hooks up with another man she just met. And then invites him into her home for a long weekend.

I'm not ready to DATE again, let alone have an intimate relationship with another man. She justified it by saying he has money, she wants a certain lifestyle, and doesn't want to sacrifice any more. She showed me love and attention, we were a couple for over 2 1/2 years. Within 36 hours I was talking to a woman I DID NOT KNOW! Her entire personality for me changed overnight from a caring woman who reminded me she would love to have my children on alternating holidays to one who is telling me she hasn't decided if she wants to sleep with this guy when he comes to visit. And you wish for her sake I don't contact her???

I'm not trying to play the victim, simply put: I never thought I would love anyone again after my marriage fell apart and I did. Hard. I fell in love as an adult, not as a young teenager who then eventually married because I thought it was the right thing. My nightmare told me over an over this was different for her too: I was her best lover, her best friend, no one had ever treated her EVER as well as I have, and that for the first time her family accepted the man she was with. Of course we talked marriage, of course I accepted to a reversal as a natural extension of the love I have for her, only to be told she wants a comfortable life? She doesn't know this guy from Adam. But she knows what I'm all about and after 2 1/2 years, my divorce is finally happening. Then she bails.

I've seen her true, gold digging side which ironically didn't come out until I began to file. Midori is right on: I"m wondering how in the hell after all this I still give a rats a**. This came out of left field. Was I played for her self-esteem? Did she have any intention on marrying me at all when it all came down to laying down the cards? Was this a game to see if she was 'special' enough for me to divorce someone over? I dont know.

I didn't disrespect a 2 1/2 year relationship/friendship, I wasn't unfaithful. She did and was. And Jenny, you hope for her sake I dont call her?

Wow.

Again, all I've been asking for is a little advice as to why I even care and why she would do what she did.

I appreciate both of your insights into this. Thanks guys.

G