[Vertex]

As a hardcore atheist, I simply want to state a few opinions and raise these questions:

Opinions:
1. I am okay with anyone's religious belief as long as it is not imposed on me, and as long as I am not discriminated based on my beliefs. I also extend the same concept to others.
2. I believe science and logic is the only way to examine the universe -- any "mystery" or "enigma" is simply something we do not yet know.
3. Dangerous opinion, but here goes: I feel that those who are not atheist simply do not understand all the arguments in favor.
4. I believe we can explain everything (and I do mean everything) without the need for a God or external force -- I am very much against the "God of the gaps" argument.

And so, my questions:
1. If you are indeed a God-believer, why are you?
2. If you are religious and yet still understand all points in favor of atheism, why do you still choose theism?

[627]

long post be warned
I'm basicly for atheism except for one little detail
you will never be 100% sure that there is no God, sure you have evolution, and the fact that all religious books come from inaccurate maybe biased sources, all written by men...but you will not have the 100% there is no God proof

however I decided even if God exists I do not wish to worship him, and if I am looking to see if God exists or not, it's just for the sake of seeking truth. I will not devote my life and my free will and bow to a being that does not consider me worthy enough of a solid undisputed proof of his existence
a higher being that has seen people die in his name fighting each other, and has not settled the argument, which would have been easy to do

in the current wars, everyone dies believing they are going to heaven
no offense to anyone in the following but
american soldiers who die in iraq for their country believe they are heroes going to heaven
the jihadists that die fighting off the invaders believe they are going to heaven
israeli palestinian conflict same story
muslims say God wants them to take back the holy land that has been defiled by these non believers
and the zionists say this is their holy land that God wanted for them

and we simply what? pick a side to stand next to, we die for our belief and God could have sorted out the matter in instances
some of the people on all these different sides are actualy good people, in any different circumstances they would have been best friends
generosity, honesty and intelligence is not closely related to one race

but it takes one uncaring God(assuming he exists) to have these people kill other people they don't know and they personnaly have nothing against

second thing that bugs me, the religious rules make no sense for the most part
the emphasis they have on no intercourse without marriage. first of all, if both these adults are ok with it, what's bothering Christ so much? or Mohammad(SAA) as the case may be or God...

what does christianity have against rich people?(example) yes I studied 10 years to become a surjeon, I was 30 before I ever had a girlfriend, I worked my butt of for 20 years and was good at my job, I made loads of cash just before I turned 60, I should ask God for forgiveness because it is easier for a camel to go through a needle hole than a rich man to enter heaven(my own translation from the arabic bible I have, never read an english one )

what does christianity have against thought? oh don't have impure thoughts, don't hate, don't get any evil thoughts, don't desire your neighbor's wife, don't desire your neighbor's possetion. yes I desired my neighbor's laptop, which is why I saved money to buy one just like it, big deal. yes I like his wife, she's hot, I can't help it, I'm notgonna do anything about it, big deal

it's my head, even acient egyptian slaves that were chained together and forced to build the pyramids had the luxury of freedome of thought
there is nothing worse than putting limits on the mind, to make people resist their own nature and fear it

in the end they say God is forgiving, yeah but he is forgiving us for his definition of a sin, in absolute terms what christ say God forgives is not even a crime or anything
I wouldn't mind if a woman fantasizes about me, or even a homosexual did, I don't mind if someone hates me and punches the wall in his bedroom thinking it is my face... it's his mind, as long as nothing actualy happenes, I don't care, it's not wrong. don't kill don't steal don't rape, beyond that nothing qualifies as evil, well maybe don't lie and cheat, but even that is not always such a big deal

finaly I'd like to say, again, assuming God exists, my parents had just as much hand in creating me as God did, without them after all I wouldn't be me, you don't see me bowing to my dad as he comes out holding up a candle to him, why is my way of treatign God should be any different? if anything my dad gets more credit, at least I see him work his butt off to give me a good life, God simply made the world billions of years ago with one word, and he has been resting ever since

with respects to everyone, this is my opinion

[alphamale]

belief in religion, per se, is irrational and based in emotion so i wouldn't expect any clear answers here...

[TheLoneSock]

Originally Posted by Vertex

As a hardcore atheist, I simply want to state a few opinions and raise these questions:

Opinions:
1. I am okay with anyone's religious belief as long as it is not imposed on me, and as long as I am not discriminated based on my beliefs. I also extend the same concept to others.
2. I believe science and logic is the only way to examine the universe -- any "mystery" or "enigma" is simply something we do not yet know.

There are positives to looking at the universe through both kaleidoscopes, scientific or religious.

Originally Posted by Vertex

3. Dangerous opinion, but here goes: I feel that those who are not atheist simply do not understand all the arguments in favor.

Yes, because if they don't agree with you then surely it's because they don't understand your divine logic.

Originally Posted by Vertex

4. I believe we can explain everything (and I do mean everything) without the need for a God or external force -- I am very much against the "God of the gaps" argument.

We can try to explain it. That doesn't make it true or fact though. Until we find the missing link, Darwin's theory of human origin doesn't mean ****. So thus far, it is only an attempt. And even then, it's science doesn't necessarily disprove religion.

Originally Posted by Vertex

1. If you are indeed a God-believer, why are you?

I am not above the idea of being part of something bigger than myself, and I can accept the probability of there being a higher power. My vehicle for this belief is Christianity.

Originally Posted by Vertex

2. If you are religious and yet still understand all points in favor of atheism, why do you still choose theism?

Because I don't believe that everything needs a scientific explanation. I can accept that we may never be able to explain everything, and that is probably how God wants it to be. Faith does not require proof. Otherwise it is not faith at all. I cannot stress that point enough when atheists prod my brain about religion.

I'm not normally one to toot the horn of wikipedia, because it has it's flaws and misinformation, but according to it, atheism is something only around %2.3 of the world's population believes in.

"Today, about 2.3% of the world's population describes itself as atheist, while a further 11.9% is described as nontheist." (this statement cited within wiki from Encyclopedia Britannica)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism

To say that only %2.3 of the world's population is thinking clearly, and the rest are blind fools that cannot grasp the logic of atheism, is a very ignorant idea.

[627]

To say that only %2.3 of the world's population is thinking clearly, and the rest are blind fools that cannot grasp the logic of atheism, is a very ignorant idea.

religion comes from parents to children brainwashing
atheism for the most part is something people discover on their own

my grandfather had 7 children, he was christian, guess what they all turned out to be
oh and by coincidence guess what all my cousins are

tough to guess right?
and when your country is dominated by religious schools, you have a christian TV, a christian radio, 2 muslim TV channels and radio
atheism don't stand a chance
is it because of flaw in logic? no, it's unfair competition, yet it is emerging

also, don't you think that believing in God is wishful thinking?
I mean, who doesn't want to believe that there is an eternity of happiness waiting for them after death
heck I even want to believe it, but I just don't see it happening

[Vertex]

Originally Posted by TheLoneSock

Yes, because if they don't agree with you then surely it's because they don't understand your divine logic.

What I mean by that statement is that most theists I encounter are not aware of all the points in favor of atheism. If I bring up such points, I usually find that the proof gets poo-poo'd because they don't really want to face the proof or actually debate it. The difference between an atheistic and theistic belief, in my opinion, is a much greater degree of probability weighing in the latter. You can say "God maybe doesn't want us to understand everything," but I could just as easily say "There are simply things we don't know yet, but it doesn't mean we don't eventually find a better explanation for the various phenomena in our universe with logic and science," which has been shown on multiple occasions.

[quankanne]

And so, my questions:
1. If you are indeed a God-believer, why are you? it's a gift I accepted and embraced. Not everyone is called to faith.

2. If you are religious and yet still understand all points in favor of atheism, why do you still choose theism? simply because it's mine to choose. It's between me and The Big Guy, everyone else is irrelevant in that regard

atheism is just another vehicle on the road to spirituality, same as religion and faith. Not sure why people feel that faith and intellect are mutually exclusive, they're just different sides of the same coin – intellect provides explanations, faith revels in the miracle of the unknown.

[627]

well because faith drives people to do irrationnal things, that often contributed to delay of progress and inequality

[Vertex]

I agree with that statement 100% quankanne, but I guess my question is, in the face of all we are able to show with science, why have faith in God?

For example, science can explain the structure of the universe, why humans exist the way they do, why scientific design is NOT essential to describe anything/how evolution describes the rise of complex systems from the simplistic, why "meaning" is purely a construct of intellectualizing and not necessarily something "objective," etc. A theist would say "what we don't know is perhaps up to God" whereas an atheist would say "We just don't know yet."

Over time, we've constantly shown how science has been shoving the need for a God out of the picture as we learn more and more. It's basically analogous to a mathematical limit -- we're seeing that as x->infinity, 1/x goes to 0 -- we'll never be able to realize the "0" case, but we're certainly close enough to the asymptote to insinuate that putting faith in God is putting faith in a low-probability event.

I just never understood how, if someone understood these concepts, they would still put faith in something like a God. Or, for that matter, a "God of the gaps" argument which is basically "Well, there's always a chance. Whatever it is we don't know, we can just say God did it." For me to "have faith in a God" is no different from me having faith in there being a unicorn under my bed. We can explain everything about our universe without the need for a God -- why tack on the extra variable?

Religion may give some people a happy life -- it may even act as a moral compass or give people meaning. However, what it makes us feel does not make it true. If religion helps, that's great -- but as an explanation for the universe, I would say it's a poor one. It's comforting, for instance, to think there's an afterlife. But we are indeed physical creatures that just so happen to be equipped with sentience. Our makeup is no different in terms of source than any other physical object. Is there a Heaven for grass? For my desk? For the ocean? What about a cup of water? Do we simply draw the line at humans because we're sentient and capable of attaching "meaning" to our existence?


Theists, please pick away at everything I've just said!

[Enema]

I gave up arguing with religiots after I saw this quote:

"You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into"

[FleshNBones]

Originally Posted by Vertex

As a hardcore atheist, I simply want to state a few opinions and raise these questions:

In other words, you are an athiestic fanatic.

1. I am okay with anyone's religious belief as long as it is not imposed on me, and as long as I am not discriminated based on my beliefs. I also extend the same concept to others.

What you do with your life is okay so long as it does not infringe on my rights or on the rights of others.

2. I believe science and logic is the only way to examine the universe -- any "mystery" or "enigma" is simply something we do not yet know.

It does not guide us, and it does not improve the human condition. Like and sideshow, it is brief and unfulfilling.

3. Dangerous opinion, but here goes: I feel that those who are not atheist simply do not understand all the arguments in favor.

In other words, I am too s-s-stupid (Imagine a stuttering southern accent) to be an atheist.

4. I believe we can explain everything (and I do mean everything) without the need for a God or external force -- I am very much against the "God of the gaps" argument.

Scooby Doo, where are you?
I never like the whole "there is always a logical explanation."

1. If you are indeed a God-believer, why are you?

Isn't it obvious. I am too stupid to be an atheist.

2. If you are religious and yet still understand all points in favor of atheism, why do you still choose theism?

Here is the rub. I might be too stupid to realize just how stupid am.


You need to understand that there is no room for bias in the scientific method.

I think a lot of the leaders (more like writers) in the athiest movement are really shameless self promoters. Their message is just product targeted to a specific audience. It is just pornography of a different sort.

[disgracian]

Originally Posted by FleshNBones

It does not guide us, and it does not improve the human condition. Like and sideshow, it is brief and unfulfilling.

Then I, for one, suggest that you shun this unfulfilling sideshow and foresake all that science has provided us. Stop using the internet, grow your own food and abstain from modern medicine.

I never like the whole "there is always a logical explanation."

Tell us something we don't already know.

I think a lot of the leaders (more like writers) in the athiest movement are really shameless self promoters. Their message is just product targeted to a specific audience. It is just pornography of a different sort.

Just like televangelists then.

Cheers,
D.

[quankanne]

let's just hope the atheists have BETTER HAIR, D!

the beauty of the scientific method -- we are ALWAYS trying to expand upon previous knowledge to come to a greater truth and understanding.

for theists, it's a natural thing to include a faith-based perspective to round out said knowledge. Ideally, it doesn't take away from this knowledge, but supplements it. Kinda like how a couple of glugs of merlot round out homemade spaghetti sauce. It's good without either, but there's a depth that this particular wine adds to my sauce. Bad analogy, perhaps, but some merit to it

the biggest argument one can have about Judeo-Christian believers is that they base their beliefs on the Bible, but you've got to understand it isn't meant to be a scientific or historical account of man's maturation, but an account of his spiritual growth. If you look at it ONLY from a scientific perspective, it's not going to jibe. Nor is it meant to.

again, it's going back to that visceral thing, which doesn't make sense to those of a scientific bent; however, to a believer, it does. The trick is to be able to live out those beliefs in a way that are peaceful to the rest of the community. How many people who otherwise have no use for faith or God find the work of someone like Mother Teresa of Calcutta so inspiring?

[Vertex]

Originally Posted by quankanne

If you look at it ONLY from a scientific perspective, it's not going to jibe. Nor is it meant to.

again, it's going back to that visceral thing, which doesn't make sense to those of a scientific bent; however, to a believer, it does. The trick is to be able to live out those beliefs in a way that are peaceful to the rest of the community. How many people who otherwise have no use for faith or God find the work of someone like Mother Teresa of Calcutta so inspiring?

It may provide inspiration -- it may provide peace -- but it doesn't make it true with respect to the workings of the universe or its origin.

[Peaceful Guy]

hey, still waiting on that response.. also, i wanted to point out that pointing out how ridiculous some religious beliefs are doesn't in any way prove that there isn't a god. sort of like if i didn't believe in science, but when i explained why, i quoted some idiot whose scientific method was totally flawed and in no way spoke for you at all.. you see the danger in this logic?