most of the theists here are christians, I hope someone will answer me on my first post here, about the things I said
and answer me on these set of questions please
it seems accordign to christianity(and to so many other religions) God has like a double personnality
he wants you to believe in him, but he made science and logic against him
he wants you to know he is there for you but he makes no miracles and no effort at all to show it
he wants you to find him but he will not drop you any clear signs
life is a test, except every human got a different one with different difficulty
you pray asking for something, if it happenes, God made it happen, if it doesn't, it's God's will
he knows what you want before you ask it, and he might not give it to you regardless of whether you pray or not, why bother?
I have seen the ceremonies in church on sunday(what's the word for that again?) basicly the priest repeats the same set of words(like magic words) and actions at precise given moments, holding a cross and wearing some weird clothe around an alter with a cup in the middle
what sets you apart from the heathens that used to sacrifice goats and dance around the fire? (when I was a kid I remember they gave us examples of heathens and we laughed at the idea, now I see there is no difference)
would jesus not come to the ceremony and bless you all if you actualy changed the way the ceremony goes?
why do the people need to go to church every sunday? there is nothing new, I already memorised everything after 3 years of attending, ironicly the priest who has been hosting the ceremony for decades, still needs to read the words from the book
most say that they do not worship objects but the holy God they do not see, yet if a picture of the blond guy with green eyes that is assumed to be the middle eastern jesus, gets torn a bit, many would not dare throw it in the trash
if you step on the picture of the blue eyes guy with blond hair, you will pick up the picture, kiss it, say you're sorry and then pray for forgiveness
in church you kneel and pray in front of a statue, many would not dare come up to the alter and pray from there, I want to see a true believer in God, that would come to church and kneel with his back turned to the alter and the statue, that is when I will respect the believer as someone who knows what he is doing...
hey, still waiting on that response.. also, i wanted to point out that pointing out how ridiculous some religious beliefs are doesn't in any way prove that there isn't a god. sort of like if i didn't believe in science, but when i explained why, i quoted some idiot whose scientific method was totally flawed and in no way spoke for you at all.. you see the danger in this logic?
You cannot disprove a God. You can't disprove Zeus, or Apollo, or Thor, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster, either. How can we disprove something if we're always moving the goalposts away? "God" is deliberately defined in a way that is impossible to disprove with science because he is always defined to fall outside of it -- he's always the "possible variable we may not know yet, but it could exist, and we have faith in it." How can you disprove a God if people are going to insist that no matter how much proof we amass, he could always fall outside of that proof?
This isn't a matter of misquoting -- it's a logical problem of how God is even defined. As for "direct experience," you're going to need to elaborate and show beyond reasonable doubt that it wasn't some sort of hindsight bias/hallucination/scenario with another possible explanation, and it must be a truth that is true for all -- otherwise it can't be true, and therefore can't be the correct explanation.
__________________
University of Pennsylvania 2009
The Wharton School
Opinions:
1. I am okay with anyone's religious belief as long as it is not imposed on me, and as long as I am not discriminated based on my beliefs. I also extend the same concept to others.
good, but ill bet you pester girls at parties about it! just kidding, but it happens..
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vertex
2. I believe science and logic is the only way to examine the universe --...
science can be faith based too.. not science by definition, but in practice, definitely!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vertex
...any "mystery" or "enigma" is simply something we do not yet know.
yup, by definition.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vertex
3. Dangerous opinion, but here goes: I feel that those who are not atheist simply do not understand all the arguments in favor.
i feel otherwise. and, "simply do not understand..".. you're an ass! again, joking, because i got what you really meant. but also, you do think a little higher of your opinions than others, right? not such a bad thing..
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vertex
4. I believe we can explain everything (and I do mean everything) without the need for a God or external force -- I am very much against the "God of the gaps" argument.
this is two extremes. i don't think we (humans) can explain everything.. the universe is too big to comprehend.. and i don't think that means there's a god or gods either. ex. "if sarah's not a car she's a chicken." see what i mean?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vertex
And so, my questions:
1. If you are indeed a God-believer, why are you?
direct experience my man.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vertex
2. If you are religious and yet still understand all points in favor of atheism, why do you still choose theism?
don't confuse god (just a word, with many definitions..), with religion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vertex
As a hardcore atheist,
hardcore anything is usually not good.
look man, sorry for joking around, but i took it seriously and answered honestly. i just hope you don't decide that i was "too stupid" to get it, and that's why i disagree with you. ill be checking back here to see what you think!
As a hardcore atheist, I simply want to state a few opinions and raise these questions:
Opinions:
1. I am okay with anyone's religious belief as long as it is not imposed on me, and as long as I am not discriminated based on my beliefs. I also extend the same concept to others.
2. I believe science and logic is the only way to examine the universe -- any "mystery" or "enigma" is simply something we do not yet know.
3. Dangerous opinion, but here goes: I feel that those who are not atheist simply do not understand all the arguments in favor.
4. I believe we can explain everything (and I do mean everything) without the need for a God or external force -- I am very much against the "God of the gaps" argument.
And so, my questions:
1. If you are indeed a God-believer, why are you?
2. If you are religious and yet still understand all points in favor of atheism, why do you still choose theism?
Wow! Your views caught me off guard - you being from Texas and all!
Can't you get shot for such an opinion?
I, like you, am an atheist. I have been for as long as I can remember. As soon as I was old enough to question things- I ceased to believe in the notion of god.
I believe, in part- that it comes from being comfortable with gaps. I am content being curious without needing to know everything. It's like waiting for the ending of a really good book while enjoying the mystery along the way.
Someone (I forget who) made a comment on here the other day- the tone being almost accusatory- that they didn't want the opinion of a "Darwinist"- intimating that evolution is just a lightweight hypothesis. It still blows my mind that there are actually people out there that really deny evolution. This speaks to your theory that people just deny without doing any research. I do think that someone with an understanding of Geology and Anthropology would have a very hard time denying the findings.
I think there is a modern marriage between science and religion.
There are those who consider themselves spiritual without accepting antiquated doctrine. There are also those that consider themselves followers of science that have a belief of something they cannot qualify or quantify.
What it comes down to for me is ~ if you are going to slap a label on yourself, just make sure you are educated about it. Research all sides, all aspects, all possibilities. I have a lot of respect for people that are willing to explore they could be wrong - regardless of their affiliation.
__________________ "Running around, robbing banks, all whacked on the Scooby Snacks"..... BloodHound Gang (FLC)
Wow! Your views caught me off guard - you being from Texas and all!
Can't you get shot for such an opinion?
I'm actually not from Texas -- just living here for the moment :P
Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Lish
What it comes down to for me is ~ if you are going to slap a label on yourself, just make sure you are educated about it. Research all sides, all aspects, all possibilities. I have a lot of respect for people that are willing to explore they could be wrong - regardless of their affiliation.
As a hardcore atheist, I simply want to state a few opinions and raise these questions:
Opinions:
1. I am okay with anyone's religious belief as long as it is not imposed on me, and as long as I am not discriminated based on my beliefs. I also extend the same concept to others.
2. I believe science and logic is the only way to examine the universe -- any "mystery" or "enigma" is simply something we do not yet know.
3. Dangerous opinion, but here goes: I feel that those who are not atheist simply do not understand all the arguments in favor.
4. I believe we can explain everything (and I do mean everything) without the need for a God or external force -- I am very much against the "God of the gaps" argument.
And so, my questions:
1. If you are indeed a God-believer, why are you?
2. If you are religious and yet still understand all points in favor of atheism, why do you still choose theism?
What the hell is "harcore atheists" supposed to mean?
1. I am okay with anyone's religious belief as long as it is not imposed on me, and as long as I am not discriminated based on my beliefs. I also extend the same concept to others.
That makes no sense. A belief does not somehow push itself onto you. A person does that to you. Therefore, not being okay with a certian belief because you think someone tried to push it into you makes no sense.
2. I believe science and logic is the only way to examine the universe -- any "mystery" or "enigma" is simply something we do not yet know.
So you're saying you're a naturalist. In my opinion that is a pretty ignorant belief, that everything in existence can be understood through science, but whatever floats your boat. As for your view on logic, religion and theism do not contradict logic whatsoever, and infact many theologians have attempted to prove God's existence with logic alone. Thomas Aquinas for example.
3. Dangerous opinion, but here goes: I feel that those who are not atheist simply do not understand all the arguments in favor.
And I feel many of those who are atheist do not understand all the arguments in favor of theism, including you my friend.
And number 4 you're pretty much just saying you're an atheist.
1. If you are indeed a God-believer, why are you?
First of all, there is no answer to explain the beginning of the universe, or the beginning of the big bang. Something must have caused the big bang. before the big bang, there was no time, and therefore no sequence. Because there was no sequence, nothing natural could have happened that caused the big bang. Therefore, whatever caused the big bang must have been supernatural.
2. If you are religious and yet still understand all points in favor of atheism, why do you still choose theism?
There are not any points in favor of atheism, only lack of points supporting theism. But as I have shown, there is evidence pointing towards the possible existence of God. Therefore I think it is illogical to be atheist, that people should be agnostic at most.
I dont agree with forcing people to recant their beliefs, but I am generally against religion.
Forcing my beliefs on others is not something I would ever do. Especially as one of the things i truely despise is on the occasion people have tried to convert me into believing. I would therefore never try to convert a theist into an atheist.
I respect other people's beliefs and opinions, and I expect them to do the same. I just dont agree with religion, but I dont belittle people who are religious
I know better than to enter a discussion about religion, but here it goes. I have skimmed through a lot of this thread seen arguments for both religion and science, but at times I also see conviction. Surely as soon as conviction rears its head, both religion and science stop doing good and start doing bad?
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just kidding, but it happens.. 
Hybrid Mode
