FA, seems to have taken a personal dislike to my posts and comments, when I state I am more asking general questions. I don't want to hear and am offended when they make comments about me, my spouse and our lives, when they know so little. All I have said is that we are generally happy, enjoy each others company, spend time together, luckily have few issues that can truly dampen a sex life (i.e. financial, significant stress, health, parents, children.....), and the only issue is the amount of sex and what is considered normal.
So I have used references, fun facts with my friends, and wonder why it is such a big deal. I ask simply does orgasm=enjoyment and if so, why not more? I do not need women then telling me my wife is faking or that I am not a good husband/lover/partner.... That is offensive.
I am here on LS to learn, impart some personal thoughts and advise and have fun. Some (mostly female) take offense to posts and throw it back at the poster.
I have also asked what is normal or expected after 2, 5, 10-20 years or what would be considered a bare minimum you can live with.....
Fallen Angel has turned it personal and given advise specifically to me, where I did not ask for it (maybe I'm too scared to take it). Then she is mad when I tell her it is off topic and not what the post is about. I have to warn Lizzie, not to respond, as she paints a broad brush that tells all men that their spouses will eventually drift and it may or may not have anything to do with them. Though she is 100% right that all these men she is with and in general, just want an enthusiastic partner for sex.....
Ever hear Chris Rock talk about getting "strange"???? That is the idea of wanting to be with different women. Does he? No.... Can he? Definitely.... Why? Because like most loving husbands, they want to be with their wives and keep the family together..... Is that so difficult?
Get over yourself already!! You have turned this personal, you have called me out after I started avioding and ignoring you. You are the one who takes everything I say personally whether it was directed at you or not. Anyone can go back and read through this whole thread and see that I never said anything to or about you. Why do you feel the need to harrass me?
If you want sex with your wife so desperately why are you here harrassing me instead of getting off the computer and persuing her.
__________________
Attempt not to deceive the god with thy mortal lips. Peer deep within thyself, and ask not questions to which thou already knowest the answer, seek not advice which thou dost not intend to obey.
She has issues from her past, her upbringing, relationships, giving up complete control, easily bothered by the stresses she perceives around her, raising of the kids, the home..... There is a long list..... She also knows to some extent like JamesM and others that there is a problem but does not consider as important as I do. In the end we are actually quite happy, and one of the best couples we know (so few seem happy imo). She acknowledges this disconnect, I am not thrilled about it, but am happy that she wants to be with me and no one else and that when we do have sex it is usually quite satisfying......
Again though i challenge women primarily to answer the orgasm question when it is with your spouse. I can understand it being an issue with a one-night stand, an ex or someone you are ambivilant or unsure about......
Quote:
Originally Posted by soserious1
Todd,
What I and others here are trying to say to you is this.
Note: my use of the words "you" and "your spouse" are generic.
If your spouse doesn't want to have sex as often as you do... then clearly they are not finding sex to be as enjoyable as you find it.
Does it [OB: achieving orgasm] mean emphatically that sex was good???? No, but it means all working parts are there and it you are in a loving relationship, which I am (insert snide remarks here), that I hope it be repeated as long as it results in a "happy ending".....
Quote:
Originally Posted by soserious1
If your spouse doesn't want to have sex as often as you do... then clearly they are not finding sex to be as enjoyable as you find it.
The above bolded parts really puzzle me, because I don't consider them to be true at all.
First, I think I could get billions of singletons (and unfortunately, many married's as well!!) to agree with me on this, that having an orgasm does NOT mean you are in a loving relationship. An orgasm is a purely physical release. Sexual excitement has NOTHING to do with how much you love your partner. Sure, when both are present it is a most powerful experience. But one doesn't need the other to survive. You don't have to love somebody to "come" with them. Likewise, you don't have to "come" with somebody in order to love them. And "coming" doesn't mean everything is A-OK outside the bedroom! It's almost like some posters in this thread are thinking, "If only I could make my W come more, we would be so much happier." Doesn't work like that. You can still get on her nerves.
And to the second bolded part - people have different sex drives. If one partner doesn't want to do it as often as the other, it does NOT mean they don't enjoy it!! It's just not as powerful of a driving force for them. It's no reflection on the desirability of their partner.
All that said, I'm a big believer in "Familiarity breeds contempt" - especially when it comes to sex. A lot of closeness in a marriage/partnership/relationship is not necessarily a good thing... and it can actually be detrimental to sex.
Ya gotta keep a little mystery going there.
__________________
"I prefer silent vice to ostentatious virtue." -Albert Einstein
She has issues from her past, her upbringing, relationships, giving up complete control, easily bothered by the stresses she perceives around her, raising of the kids, the home..... There is a long list..... She also knows to some extent like JamesM and others that there is a problem but does not consider as important as I do. In the end we are actually quite happy, and one of the best couples we know (so few seem happy imo). She acknowledges this disconnect, I am not thrilled about it, but am happy that she wants to be with me and no one else and that when we do have sex it is usually quite satisfying......
Again though i challenge women primarily to answer the orgasm question when it is with your spouse. I can understand it being an issue with a one-night stand, an ex or someone you are ambivilant or unsure about......
Ok, in situations when I have been with a person with as higher drive,(in LTR, not ONS) the reason I didn't eagerly agree to sex when ever he asked is that I just didn't find it enjoyable enough to want to do it as often as he did.
The above bolded parts really puzzle me, because I don't consider them to be true at all.
First, I think I could get billions of singletons (and unfortunately, many married's as well!!) to agree with me on this, that having an orgasm does NOT mean you are in a loving relationship. An orgasm is a purely physical release. Sexual excitement has NOTHING to do with how much you love your partner. Sure, when both are present it is a most powerful experience. But one doesn't need the other to survive. You don't have to love somebody to "come" with them. Likewise, you don't have to "come" with somebody in order to love them. And "coming" doesn't mean everything is A-OK outside the bedroom! It's almost like some posters in this thread are thinking, "If only I could make my W come more, we would be so much happier." Doesn't work like that. You can still get on her nerves.
And to the second bolded part - people have different sex drives. If one partner doesn't want to do it as often as the other, it does NOT mean they don't enjoy it!! It's just not as powerful of a driving force for them. It's no reflection on the desirability of their partner.
All that said, I'm a big believer in "Familiarity breeds contempt" - especially when it comes to sex. A lot of closeness in a marriage/partnership/relationship is not necessarily a good thing... and it can actually be detrimental to sex.
Ya gotta keep a little mystery going there.
I think Todd is asking his question in terms of the basis pleasure of sexual release ie; "if it feels good and you
cum, why won't you do it more when I want to?"
I can say very clearly that there are times when the thoughts of physical pleasure to be gained from a sexual session really doesn't seem like it's going to be worth the effort involved in preparing for that session ie: showering, waxing the kitty, doing the hair, oiling and perfuming etc.
In every marriage there is a libido spread. It may be small and it may be big. When it is big, there are factors that can cause the low drive partner to make the "effort" to step up. I think these are the main ones. Without these factors, the low drive partner completely sets the pace, the high drive spouse feels unloved and angry. Usually that interaction pattern makes the spread even bigger. When the factors below cause the low drive spouse to make the effort a certain amount, the marriage is typically happier overall.
- Love: The desire to please someone who you love so much that making them happy makes you happy.
- Fear: Not physical fear - but fear that there will be some consequence of not making an effort - could be as extreme as fear of divorce or infidelity, or as subtle as your partner withdraws emotionally and is markedly less helpful when they are not satisfied on a regular basis
- Guilt: The low drive spouse truly believes the Corinthians verses about not denying your spouse your body when they request it. They actually want to avoid feeling guilty for being a bad partner by denying you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by soserious1
Ok, in situations when I have been with a person with as higher drive,(in LTR, not ONS) the reason I didn't eagerly agree to sex when ever he asked is that I just didn't find it enjoyable enough to want to do it as often as he did.
I rarely post to this forum but read it frequently. Also, read the Separation and Divorce forum. Trying to find answers. Lots to think about.
This is my experience of a sexless marriage for what it worth. My husband would complain that I withheld sex for a number of years. He would probably also think he was a good provider for me and the kids during that time. My experience and memories of that time were completely different.
Did I withhold sex as a punishment, to gain control, because I was complacent, because I thought "gotcha, you can't escape? No. I didn't feel I was withholding sex. I was desperately unhappy with my life, depressed and without hope for anything better. Did I pretend that everything was good? Yes. Because I had responsibilities to the kids and was trying to make things work.
What was wrong? My husband loved his job. It is all consuming. He worked 70 to 80 hours a week at that time. When he came home he was tired. He usually ate dinner and went to bed. On the weekends he often worked. We hardly ever went out. If I suggested it he would get angry. When I suggested he look at different employment he got angry. He got angry that I didn't keep the house the way he wanted. He didn't like kid's toys underfoot. He didn't like that we didn't sit down to dinner together at night. I would feed the kids at 6.00pm and he wouldn't get home until after 8.00pm which I felt was too late for them. You get the picture.
However, also during that time he would occasionally feel like sex. He would get angry if I didn't immediately get "into" it. He thought I had a problem that I should see someone about. He also thought I had a problem that I was tired all the time. He was doing all the work - he was the one who should be tired.
You get the picture. I felt completely unloved. We hardly connected. He was always so grumpy with me. It seemed completely unnatural to feel like having sex. To me it felt like I was just a body to be used when he had an urge.
There is light at the end of the tunnel for this story though. We now have sex as often as he wants. He wants a BJ in the middle of the night, he gets one. Whatever and whenever he wants. Three times a day, yep we have done it. And this, after we have been together 18 years.
The solution. He had an affair, actually many of them. He told me he wouldn't live in a sexless marriage. He had needs. He wanted certain things or he was leaving. I wanted to keep the marriage together so now we have sex. Do I enjoy it? No. But I pretend to and that seems to be enough.
And before you accuse me of staying for the money he provides. He has had yet another mid life crisis and has given up work. I have been supporting us for the last year and a bit. I had always worked part time since the kids went to kindergarten but have now returned to full time work. Great job, high salary. Some people think I am worth something.
Long post. Sorry. But you originally asked about "alienation of affection" and whether refusal of sex should be considered. I would argue that there are many things that could qualify in the alienation of affection and sex, in the context of a loving relationship, is just one of them.
And before you accuse me of staying for the money he provides. He has had yet another mid life crisis and has given up work. I have been supporting us for the last year and a bit. I had always worked part time since the kids went to kindergarten but have now returned to full time work. Great job, high salary. Some people think I am worth something.
.
I don't understand what you are getting out of this relationship.
I recently read "Mating in Captivity" by Esther Perel. It is a great book written by a fantastic sex therapist. It talks in depth about why marriages become sex-less. I really recommend this book for both men and women, and hope it helps you.
She has issues from her past, her upbringing, relationships, giving up complete control, easily bothered by the stresses she perceives around her, raising of the kids, the home..... There is a long list..... She also knows to some extent like JamesM and others that there is a problem but does not consider as important as I do.
This is quite accurate... and my wife works as well... but we are not happy...
What was wrong? My husband loved his job. It is all consuming. He worked 70 to 80 hours a week at that time.
You get the picture. I felt completely unloved. We hardly connected.
There is light at the end of the tunnel for this story though. We now have sex as often as he wants.
The solution. He had an affair, actually many of them. He told me he wouldn't live in a sexless marriage. He had needs. He wanted certain things or he was leaving. I wanted to keep the marriage together so now we have sex. Do I enjoy it? No. But I pretend to and that seems to be enough.
I have been supporting us for the last year and a bit. I had always worked part time since the kids went to kindergarten but have now returned to full time work. Great job, high salary. Some people think I am worth something.
Many comments and thoughts as I read this. Interesting turn of events.
He gets no sex. He cheats. He gets plenty of sex. The question is...is it good sex? Is HE happy with it? Are YOU happy with it? You do not enjoy it, but are you happy with providing him with his sex?
Inside do you hold alot of anger? Do you still LOVE him? Do you have any respect for him?
Does he love you?
Do you plan on divorcing him eventually?
Do you think he sees you as worthy to be his wife, or are you just the mother of his children and his sex slave?
While I don't think your situation applies to all here, it does fit how some marriages are.
__________________ "Only two things are necessary to keep one's wife happy. One is to let her think she is having her own way, the other is to let her have it." --LBJ
Maybe she was having sex in hopes he would help with the kids/house/chores..... Interesting that it didn't work either....
LOL...oh dear...this is pretty funny, in a sad way. Yes, I know it doesn't make sense.
I refused to have sex with my H after D-day. I was only 19. Not because I was punishing him, but JamesM is right, I rejected him. He tried to work on me and the marriage for probably a year(we reached an agreement on what we wanted in the marriage and it lasted 18 years-we will soon be divorced), after that he took my refusal to have sex with him as tacit approval to have affairs-lucky for him, I didn't care enough to make his life more miserable by demanding "no sex with me , no sex with anyone either". Truly, looking back, I can't say I blamed him for the numerous affairs.
I am a woman who lived in a marriage that became totally sexless for one year and that in the years prior to that we had sex less than 5 times.. this sad state of affairs was at my now ex-husband's request.
I was also the sole bread winner in our marriage and can tell you from direct experience that attempting to limit
my spouse's access to money and other items in an attempt to show him what his refusing to meet my sexual needs was like back fired totally.
Now unless your Ex had a lawyer that got his degree out of a cracker jack box, I respectfully submit that as entertaining as your story is, I doubt it would fly in many divorce settlements.
When my lawyer and my ex and his lawyer met for settlement talks, it was hammered home to me that my husband wasn't some sort of prostitute, that my depriving him of his "usual and customary" access to funds constituted spousal abuse, that in marrying him and allowing him to stay at home that what I had been granted was obligations and responsibility.. paying his bills didn't entitle me to anything except literally the obligation to either continue paying them or decide to end the marriage by requesting divorce. Haranguing, nagging or attempting to limit his funds because he wouldn't have sex with me
was considered to be "cruel and abusive" I was made out to be rather perverted, disgusting old woman who's interest in sex was unseemly and unnatural.
I ended up settling with him, giving him half the marital assets, I am also paying him $2,750 per month plus medical and dental for life unless he remarries.
My ex now doesn't have to talk to me, nor does he have to have sex with me .. and he still receives a not insignificant chunk of my monthly income.
Those in sexless marriages thinking the "I'll teach her (or him as the case may be) a lesson might wish to consult with a family lay attorney before attempting this tactic.
Well in my case I did not care about the consequences. I had enough and my XW had a way of trying to teach me a lesson all of the time. She would tell me we were going to switch things around so she could teach me a lesson.
So she would say she will not do house work anymore( That was now my job). So I can see what it is like. So she would refuse to shop and get groceries, pick up house or do the laundry. I would then have to all that and work my job. It was all a way for her to have full control of everything. I am ashamed that I let her run over me for many years.
My wife did not want a divorce. I did divorce her and I did have to give up half of my assets but I was sharing them with her anyway. I am ok with that. I have 2 kids still at home and they are 17 and 15. They both chose to live with me and not their mother. I was fine not having my XW not paying any child support just so I no longer had to support her.
I have more money for me than I ever did married. Anyone that puts up with abusive treatment because they may have to give up assests is missing the boat. I no longer support her and she has to do nothing for me which is the way I wanted it.
I am sorry but what happened to you happens to a lot of men. I did lose some assets but in the long run I will do much better. I no longer have to fund her shopping so I am fine with it.
Again if a person refuses to meet your needs you have two choices. Do nothing or change it and be ready to part ways if they refuse to change their behavior.
I only wish I had the guts to do it years ago. Part of the reason I did not was because of my kids. They were young and I did fear I would not be living with them. My kids do love their mom but I had a closer relationship with them and they knew I was more stable than their mother so it has worked out for all of us.
For my Ex this is probably the hardest part for her. They love her but they chose me to live with. I think this is the main reason she did not want the divorce. She claimed to be in love with me but I could not see it.
Sorry now I will stop the threadjacking. But yes it happened but I could not be happier now being rid of her. Dating a woman who enjoys sex has done alot for my attitude toward life. I just wish I had been stronger earlier in my marriage. Maybe it would have never come to this.
Last edited by itmustbeme; 2nd November 2009 at 11:52 PM..
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). Then she is mad when I tell her it is off topic and not what the post is about. I have to warn Lizzie, not to respond, as she paints a broad brush that tells all men that their spouses will eventually drift and it may or may not have anything to do with them
. Though she is 100% right that all these men she is with and in general, just want an enthusiastic partner for sex..... 
The above bolded parts really puzzle me, because I don't consider them to be true at all.
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