[Toodamnpragmatic]

but bravo...... Where are you Fallen Angel to add your 2 cents???? Or Lizzie to explain to itmustbeme, that his wife just didn't want to sleep with him, was bored and her libido has started up again with someone else????

[soserious1]

Originally Posted by itmustbeme

Now picture a marriage like this. The wife goes to work and makes all of the money for the home or at least most of it. Now her husband decided that he loves his wife but he is not going to talk to her any more or only once in a while. Also she cannot talk to anybody else either. Just how happy do you think that woman is going to be with her life? Also imagine that the wife has sex with her husband 2 to 3 times a week. The husband also has time to golf which he loves since he does not have to bother talking with his wife. Wow life is good for him but for her it is a living hell.

What is described above no one would wonder that she is not happy and wants things to change or she is gone. Yet my Ex could not figure this out. She never thought that I could ever leave for lack of sex. When I did file divorce she was stunned.

Although when I stopped talking to her and stopped giving her money she was very unhappy. She was livid and I told her I am going to treat our marriage just exactly the way she treats our marriage. I will refuse to meet her two top needs financial support and time together (conversation). I even told her that if she saved up some money and bought me a new driver I would talk to her for a while. I did this because our sex life was something she would use to get things. When I did not want that from her anymore and stopped talking to her and cut off money to her life sucked for her.

What is the point of all of this? Read this quote from the post above:




This quote is right on. When I met all of her needs she was sure I would not leave. If you take care of your wife’s needs and she is happy or comfortable with it then you have no chance to change things. You also are not going to change things by bitching or complaining on a web site (although it does help to vent).

You have to be willing to not accept it and talk with her. I am much happier dating someone else and not having to bring home a check to a woman who used me as a paycheck. My Ex did not want the divorce and she wants our family back. I have moved on but men are too afraid to move on. I went years without change but I am much happier now that I did something about it.

If a guy is not willing to do the hard work then he will get nowhere. Another important thing is he must be willing to leave the marriage if she will not fix the problem. But do not allow her to get angry and do nothing and send you sulking after a fight about it(happened to me all the time). When I told her I wanted a divorce she told me I should have communicated this to her.

She never thought she could lose me over this. I did not stick around to see if things would have changed but she sure did offer to change and said she would do anything just before divorce was final but I did not want to try anymore.

Don't put up with it. I must also say that I don't think that a woman has to have sex with her husband no matter what. As a matter of fact she should not have sex with her husband if she does not want too. But she should also understand he should move on and find a woman that does desire him and does want to have sex with him. Ok that is enough for now but I just want to encourage men to do something and don't suffer.

If you are a lousy husband than change and become a good husband and repair things. If you are a good husband and live in a sexless marriage then expect changes or expect to find a new woman who appreciates you.

I am a woman who lived in a marriage that became totally sexless for one year and that in the years prior to that we had sex less than 5 times.. this sad state of affairs was at my now ex-husband's request.

I was also the sole bread winner in our marriage and can tell you from direct experience that attempting to limit
my spouse's access to money and other items in an attempt to show him what his refusing to meet my sexual needs was like back fired totally.

Now unless your Ex had a lawyer that got his degree out of a cracker jack box, I respectfully submit that as entertaining as your story is, I doubt it would fly in many divorce settlements.

When my lawyer and my ex and his lawyer met for settlement talks, it was hammered home to me that my husband wasn't some sort of prostitute, that my depriving him of his "usual and customary" access to funds constituted spousal abuse, that in marrying him and allowing him to stay at home that what I had been granted was obligations and responsibility.. paying his bills didn't entitle me to anything except literally the obligation to either continue paying them or decide to end the marriage by requesting divorce. Haranguing, nagging or attempting to limit his funds because he wouldn't have sex with me
was considered to be "cruel and abusive" I was made out to be rather perverted, disgusting old woman who's interest in sex was unseemly and unnatural.
I ended up settling with him, giving him half the marital assets, I am also paying him $2,750 per month plus medical and dental for life unless he remarries.

My ex now doesn't have to talk to me, nor does he have to have sex with me .. and he still receives a not insignificant chunk of my monthly income.


Those in sexless marriages thinking the "I'll teach her (or him as the case may be) a lesson might wish to consult with a family lay attorney before attempting this tactic.

[Juniper22]

soserious, but why was he refusing to have sex with you? Obvioulsy that happened first before your limiting of funds etc. So I guess his not wanting to have sex, and your attempt to teach him lesson, you both were in the wrong. Its probably best you moved on.

[soserious1]

Originally Posted by Juniper22

soserious, but why was he refusing to have sex with you? Obvioulsy that happened first before your limiting of funds etc. So I guess his not wanting to have sex, and your attempt to teach him lesson, you both were in the wrong. Its probably best you moved on.

Why didn't he want sex with me?

There are several reasons, all inter twined

1. I gave too much.. the man didn't have to work, he milked an old back injury that prevented gainful employment but strangely didn't prevent regular sessions
at the health club.

2. His own mid-life crisis.. he worked out at the gym, went tanning, slept in, surfed the web looking at porn. I went to work .. he looked rested and youthful, I just looked old.

3. Different lifestyles.. you can't hang out till all hours when you've got a grant proposal due in the morning
or important research to do. I was the adult in the relationship, he, the middle aged teenager.. I wasn't any fun.

4. His having to look at my aging face and body didn't turn him on, it only reminded him of his own mortality.
It's easier to pretend you're still young when the women you're bedding are young. Having to stare your age peer wife in the face makes that impossible and he just couldn't face it.

he also had odd ideas about women in mid-life and sexuality, he felt it to be unseemly and disgusting that a woman past menopause would have any desire at all.

[Fallen Angel]

Originally Posted by Toodamnpragmatic

but bravo...... Where are you Fallen Angel to add your 2 cents???? Or Lizzie to explain to itmustbeme, that his wife just didn't want to sleep with him, was bored and her libido has started up again with someone else????

TDP?? May I ask why you called me out on this? I have stayed well away from you, yet here you are seeming to want a fight.. funny, see the thing is, I happen to think that itmustbeme was amazing with what he did.

So now what?

But the thing is TDP, if you ever bothered to pull your head out of your...... well.. anyway, if you actually READ the things I say instead of jumping to conclusions that I am a man hater and lashing out angrily at me because of your assumptions, then perhaps you would have known better than to call me out in an effort to pick a fight with me over something that we agree on.. LMAO!!

Originally Posted by Fallen Angel

I agree, alimony is an outdated concept in this age of equality. Unless you forced your spouse to stay home and not work.

Perhaps EVERY marriage should have to start with a prenup... Personally I would love to be a stay at home wife and mother, but I couldn't imagine ever denying my partner sex either (within reason.. obviously I say no at times, and he does also).

But if I chose to live a sexless life, I would not expect my partner to continue providing in his "husbandly duties" ie finacial support.

Perhaps I am not typical though, I tend to be more old fashioned in my ideas about the difference between men and women and their roles and responsibilities in a relationship. *shrug*

[mem11363]

FA,
This is not about you. And it is not about sex. It is really about love. Men in this deprived situation are angry their wives simply don't love them as much as they want to be loved. In this case someone really deeply loves their wife, expresses it daily, even intently and yet the love is simply not returned.

Still it is a drag when you get lashed out at for holding the opposite opinion that you actually have.

Originally Posted by Fallen Angel

TDP?? May I ask why you called me out on this? I have stayed well away from you, yet here you are seeming to want a fight.. funny, see the thing is, I happen to think that itmustbeme was amazing with what he did.

So now what?

But the thing is TDP, if you ever bothered to pull your head out of your...... well.. anyway, if you actually READ the things I say instead of jumping to conclusions that I am a man hater and lashing out angrily at me because of your assumptions, then perhaps you would have known better than to call me out in an effort to pick a fight with me over something that we agree on.. LMAO!!

[PandorasBox]

"Still it is a drag when you get lashed out at for holding the opposite opinion that you actually have".

That seems to happen alot on here, especially in the porn threads, and especially if a woman gives her opinion on porn and whether she likes it or not. I've seen some say they don't have a real issue with porn, but maybe there are certain kinds etc, and there are some men who still lash out at them for it, and make them come across as ALL porn/man haters, when thats not even what the woman wwas trying to say.

[Sam Spade]

Originally Posted by mem11363

FA,
This is not about you. And it is not about sex. It is really about love. Men in this deprived situation are angry their wives simply don't love them as much as they want to be loved. In this case someone really deeply loves their wife, expresses it daily, even intently and yet the love is simply not returned.

Yes, and all the "explanations" given of why this happens are are in fact just plain rationalizations and blame shifting. In the majority of cases where the spouse refuses sex, the true reason why they do it is that he or she simply doesn't care and can't be bothered. All the "ifs" and "buts" are just rationalizations. That's why after some reasonable time allowed to fix any possible underlying problems in the marriage, bailing is reasonable.

Sometimes you simply do need to make an effort to have sex. My previous relationship was one of these rare instances where my gf seemed to have a higher drive than I did, and after the first 1-2 years she seemed to want it more often than I did. Our frequency was still more than reasonable (i guess about 3 times wk.) but I could tell she'd get upset every once in a while.
Why didn't I feel like having sex more often? While we've had some issues and problems, the most truthful answer is simply - I got freaking comfortable and lazy. Thankfully, I have a functioning brain cell left and even when I wasn't realy feeling it, I always made an effort, even when I "wasn't in the mood". She was happy, and then I was happy that I had made the effort.

And that's why sex-refusing wifes/husbands should be dumped. There are multiple circumstances in married couple's life when sex simply naturally wanes on the back burner for a while. And that's normal and fine. But, a sustained rejection and a refusal to do anything about it is a no-brainer indication that the spouse (man or a woman - but most often - a woman) is about to check out or has already checked out of the marriage.

[Toodamnpragmatic]

FA, seems to have taken a personal dislike to my posts and comments, when I state I am more asking general questions. I don't want to hear and am offended when they make comments about me, my spouse and our lives, when they know so little. All I have said is that we are generally happy, enjoy each others company, spend time together, luckily have few issues that can truly dampen a sex life (i.e. financial, significant stress, health, parents, children.....), and the only issue is the amount of sex and what is considered normal.

So I have used references, fun facts with my friends, and wonder why it is such a big deal. I ask simply does orgasm=enjoyment and if so, why not more? I do not need women then telling me my wife is faking or that I am not a good husband/lover/partner.... That is offensive.

I am here on LS to learn, impart some personal thoughts and advise and have fun. Some (mostly female) take offense to posts and throw it back at the poster.

I have also asked what is normal or expected after 2, 5, 10-20 years or what would be considered a bare minimum you can live with.....

Fallen Angel has turned it personal and given advise specifically to me, where I did not ask for it (maybe I'm too scared to take it). Then she is mad when I tell her it is off topic and not what the post is about. I have to warn Lizzie, not to respond, as she paints a broad brush that tells all men that their spouses will eventually drift and it may or may not have anything to do with them. Though she is 100% right that all these men she is with and in general, just want an enthusiastic partner for sex.....

Ever hear Chris Rock talk about getting "strange"???? That is the idea of wanting to be with different women. Does he? No.... Can he? Definitely.... Why? Because like most loving husbands, they want to be with their wives and keep the family together..... Is that so difficult?

[soserious1]

Originally Posted by Toodamnpragmatic

So I have used references, fun facts with my friends, and wonder why it is such a big deal. I ask simply does orgasm=enjoyment and if so, why not more? I do not need women then telling me my wife is faking or that I am not a good husband/lover/partner.... That is offensive.

I am here on LS to learn, impart some personal thoughts and advise and have fun. Some (mostly female) take offense to posts and throw it back at the poster.

I have also asked what is normal or expected after 2, 5, 10-20 years or what would be considered a bare minimum you can live with.....

Fallen Angel has turned it personal and given advise specifically to me, where I did not ask for it (maybe I'm too scared to take it). Then she is mad when I tell her it is off topic and not what the post is about. I have to warn Lizzie, not to respond, as she paints a broad brush that tells all men that their spouses will eventually drift and it may or may not have anything to do with them. Though she is 100% right that all these men she is with and in general, just want an enthusiastic partner for sex.....

ok, when you throw up "fun facts" ie: you make anecdotal references to polls you've conducted among your friends.. YOU are bringing your personal life into the discussion.

When you go on to ask people what " is normal or expected, what's the bare minium" amount of sex they can live with, you are then asking them to get personal
about their lives.

Then getting all bent out of shape because people reference your personal life doesn't seem fair to me.

Now for the $64 question

"I ask simply does orgasm=enjoyment and if so, why not more?"

Because for a lot of people (men included, an orgasm that lasts about 30 seconds is not worth the amount of work and effort they believe they have to put in to get it.

A wife who doesn't put out cheerfully when asked has decided that the sex, the marriage and the man isn't worth the effort to do so... same goes for men who are sexual refusers.

[OpenBook]

Originally Posted by Toodamnpragmatic

So I have used references, fun facts with my friends, and wonder why it is such a big deal.

It's apparently a big deal to you, because you've started a thread about it - not to mention titling it "Serious question..."

Originally Posted by Toodamnpragmatic

I ask simply does orgasm=enjoyment and if so, why not more? I do not need women then telling me my wife is faking or that I am not a good husband/lover/partner.... That is offensive.

So you pose the question to LS At Large: "Why not more?" and then you take offense when posters try to respond to it. Seems to me you are trying to control the responses here, and eradicate the ones you don't like. Good luck with that. Does this work for you IRL?

[mem11363]

I am certain that there are women I am not attracted to - could get me to orgasm - especially if they were skilled at a certain type of sexual activity.

The real eye opening realization to me from reading this post is that:
orgasm "does not" imply attraction, or overall sexual enjoyment

So I have learned something interesting here.

As for Sam Spade, your comments about spouses being lazy and indifferent to each others needs - I totally agree, and I do think that is about love. Real love is about what you DO for and with the other person, not about what you say to them. And when you really truly love someone, their misery is your misery, so if you are starving them you feel really bad, bad enough to do something.

Originally Posted by OpenBook

It's apparently a big deal to you, because you've started a thread about it - not to mention titling it "Serious question..."



So you pose the question to LS At Large: "Why not more?" and then you take offense when posters try to respond to it. Seems to me you are trying to control the responses here, and eradicate the ones you don't like. Good luck with that. Does this work for you IRL?

[Toodamnpragmatic]

Originally Posted by OpenBook

It's apparently a big deal to you, because you've started a thread about it - not to mention titling it "Serious question..."

So you pose the question to LS At Large: "Why not more?" and then you take offense when posters try to respond to it. Seems to me you are trying to control the responses here, and eradicate the ones you don't like. Good luck with that. Does this work for you IRL?

And very few have answered the question "Why not more?" Now maybe we are all just delusional, where we think our spouses enjoy it, but are actually just tricking us and that is why it is so seldom..... So you have convinced me that it is all about me, and that my spouse just is not interested in it.

So I ask Giotto, JamesM and the others who have wasted their time posting, asking questions, researching the topic and reading books and posts, that the answer is right there for you...... Your spouse likes sex, in some cases an awful lot, just not with you enough to make it worth their while......

[mem11363]

Do you truly believe that if an orgasm happens, that means it was good sex? Because that seems to be the entire point of contention here.

As long as anyone firmly and adamantly insists that orgasm = good sex, the result will be that person will feel angry they are being denied the frequency they seek. Because they believe their partner is choosing not to do something that they BOTH really enjoy. Which could only make sense if the partner is masochistic or sadistic.

But that simply isn't the case. If the partner was sadistic/masochistic you would already know that. The truth is that sex is way more then just orgasm and it is possible to have one, despite not enyoying the sex that much overall and maybe not being that attracted to the person who gave it (the big O) to you.

Originally Posted by Toodamnpragmatic

And very few have answered the question "Why not more?" Now maybe we are all just delusional, where we think our spouses enjoy it, but are actually just tricking us and that is why it is so seldom..... So you have convinced me that it is all about me, and that my spouse just is not interested in it.

So I ask Giotto, JamesM and the others who have wasted their time posting, asking questions, researching the topic and reading books and posts, that the answer is right there for you...... Your spouse likes sex, in some cases an awful lot, just not with you enough to make it worth their while......

[Toodamnpragmatic]

The definition of orgasm... From medterms....

Orgasm: The climax of coitus, consisting of a series of involuntary muscle contractions in the anus, lower pelvic muscles, and sexual organs, accompanied by a sudden release of endorphins providing a feeling of euphoria.


Does it mean emphatically that sex was good???? No, but it means all working parts are there and it you are in a loving relationship, which I am (insert snide remarks here), that I hope it be repeated as long as it results in a "happy ending".....

Said it before, if it is no longer enjoyable to any extent, i.e. 2 hours of work (and I mean work) to reach it, then maybe it needs to be explored...

I have said it before..... I am really very simple in my views and my hypothesis and theories....

Originally Posted by mem11363

Do you truly believe that if an orgasm happens, that means it was good sex? Because that seems to be the entire point of contention here.

As long as anyone firmly and adamantly insists that orgasm = good sex, the result will be that person will feel angry they are being denied the frequency they seek. Because they believe their partner is choosing not to do something that they BOTH really enjoy. Which could only make sense if the partner is masochistic or sadistic.

But that simply isn't the case. If the partner was sadistic/masochistic you would already know that. The truth is that sex is way more then just orgasm and it is possible to have one, despite not enyoying the sex that much overall and maybe not being that attracted to the person who gave it (the big O) to you.