Conventionally raising femininity while slowly suppressing Masculinity
No group of people like to be oppressed whether race or gender. It’s clear to me on this site that women are asking other women how men should act; that the best advice for a man’s behavior is solely suited for a woman’s analysis. It’s also clear that some women on this site and in society strongly promote femininity but are eager to dissect a man’s masculinity to where it’s convenient for them or extinct. Testosterone drives most men to dominate and strongly encourages them to aim high-to be the best. Masculinity is something innate in most men that can’t be conditioned. The only conditioning it has is a self-conscious one, to where most men don’t want to look socially incorrect. Most men I’ve talked to feel that being head of household is a man’s duty which doesn’t mean control and authority over everything. What those things maybe are different for every man. For me to list any of them would set up a stereotypical outlook, which would be dissected by some women and not speak for every man. A lot of men I’ve talked to don't discuss things like this in the opened like women because they know they'll get ridiculously backlash. Some men say that chivalry is a masculine trait towards women but women want to be treated equal. Some men believe acting boisterous is apart of masculinity but woman want to compress that type of behavior.
A male’s ego is sometimes easily bruised, but maybe some of the reasons why (nowadays) is because men are fighting for their distinctiveness; to be masculine in a society forcing them to change. Some men in relationships/marriage are made to feel emasculate (for whatever reason) or feel unappreciated to where they will try to prove their worth as men through dominance by oppose women’s beliefs of how men should act, which become very catastrophic. No man wants to be told how to act like a man by a woman which is evidently contrary. A lot of women are fighting for their identity today because of the movement. Working or Stay-At-Home mom/wife, wanting it all but can’t have it-wanting to be a stay at home, but feels she’s missing out on following her dreams and leaving a print of accomplishments on this earth-on the contrary, working is taking away from her fully enjoying every inch of being a mother and wife.
A lot of men continue to fight back, not wanting to marry, because they feel their place and identity as a man won’t be appreciated and respected. They feel once they “tie the knot”, they’re going to get a controlling feminist b*tch.
This is true but the men who keep their manhood despite what some women might have to say are the ones who are most successful. I don't know why men are so damn afraid of offending women. Most women can't be pleased anyway so I wish men would be who we want to be and not what women tell us a man is. How can women even attempt to define manhood when they are not men themselves? This is why young boys need a male role model from a young age.
In an ideal world - and I do emphasise that - the best role models for a young man would both a male AND a female role model. The same can and should be said for girls.
In order to achieve balance, one must give balance.
rare...too rare, huh?
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In an ideal world - and I do emphasise that - the best role models for a young man would both a male AND a female role model. The same can and should be said for girls.
In order to achieve balance, one must give balance.
rare...too rare, huh?
This is true but boys today are sorely lacking a man who can show them the ropes and teach them how to be a man.
Testosterone fueled masculinity can be very exciting, from a woman's perspective. Some of us find it extremely hot!
Having said that, when the anger is misplaced to discriminate against 50% of the human race or more, that drive is being abused.
IMO, no one gets a free ride. You can spend your entire life bitching about how horrible society/women/minorities are or you can create your own personal code to live by and live it.
Misplaced and irrational blanket hatred fueled by fear, is such a turn-off.
Testosterone fueled masculinity can be very exciting, from a woman's perspective. Some of us find it extremely hot!
Having said that, when the anger is misplaced to discriminate against 50% of the human race or more, that drive is being abused.
IMO, no one gets a free ride. You can spend your entire life bitching about how horrible society/women/minorities are or you can create your own personal code to live by and live it.
Misplaced and irrational blanket hatred fueled by fear, is such a turn-off.
How about it when it comes to some traditional gender-roles? Some men feel careless, enthusiastic, and very happy with them. Something that some men feel should be look at as admirable or commendable, like wanting to be the breadwinner so his wife doesn't have to work as hard and be there more for their children, is now looked at as chauvinism, sexism, or oppression, which is difficult for some men to understand and adapted to. All it really does is damages or derogates a man’s masculinity. Some men just believe women should be there more for their children because their mothers where for them. Does that make him chauvinist or sexist? If so, would that make his own mother a teacher of chauvinism/sexism since she taught him to feel that way, whether subconsciously or not? A man only wants the love and time his mother gave to him for his own children via his wife. Those men get put in the category of chauvinist pigs which is sad. Not all men believe that a woman’s place is at the home because men are superior to women. Everyone is just different. Some men want women to pull their weight financial. Some men are euphoric that they’re wives are the breadwinners and don't mind being a SAH dad.
Last edited by Jax Star; 29th July 2009 at 11:09 PM..
It is chauvinistic when they want to impose those roles on the wife. If the wife is a career woman, he cannot expect her to quit her job and stay at home, as that is what he saw when he was a kid (if his father hit him, would it be correct for him to do the same to his kids?). Times change, roles change. It is silly imo that because I am a woman, I should act or behave in a certain way. . . being a housewife would make me terribly unhappy.
If a man wants a housewife, he should not marry a career woman, and the expectations should be discussed before getting married. Roles should be divided equally between both sexes, and a man could find a lot of happiness or fullfilment spending more time with his kids, cooking, among other stuff. Being a woman, does not mean that I would be a better homemaker than a man.
It is chauvinistic when they want to impose those roles on the wife. If the wife is a career woman, he cannot expect her to quit her job and stay at home, as that is what he saw when he was a kid (if his father hit him, would it be correct for him to do the same to his kids?). Times change, roles change. It is silly imo that because I am a woman, I should act or behave in a certain way. . . being a housewife would make me terribly unhappy.
If a man wants a housewife, he should not marry a career woman, and the expectations should be discussed before getting married. Roles should be divided equally between both sexes, and a man could find a lot of happiness or fullfilment spending more time with his kids, cooking, among other stuff. Being a woman, does not mean that I would be a better homemaker than a man.
I agree with the two sentences up until the parentheses! That's just an out of control hypothesis!! I'm talking about love not trying to relive psychological and physical torment through your children.
I agree, if a man wants a housewife he should not marry a career driven woman. But why does some women have to think one extremity to the next? Why is it you either have to be a housewife or a career woman? 100 or 100. Why think such distressful ultimatums for yourself if he's not thinking that way. This is why I think some women will classify all men, who request this, as being chauvinist or sexist. They go right to thinking the extreme. Why can't it be 40/60? If he's just saying,"Hey Honey, you can have your career but you don't have to work as hard plus you can spend more time with the kids and I'll bring home most of the bacon"; because that makes him feel like a man, she shouldn't yell or think chauvinist/sexist so freely.
Why can't it just be a difference in opinion or lifestyle? Why does it have to due with superiority over gender, discriminatory or abusive behavior towards members of the opposite sex?
The only reason I said masculinity because when he's attacked in that matter, his ideas of what it is to be a man is too. If the woman approaches him and says, that is not what she wants to do then maybe they can compromise. If not, then they might not belong together. Masculinity is not just about physical attributes or mannerism it's about beliefs too. There are women who are fine with being a staying-at-home. Just talk to some of your local school district moms. You will find a lot of SAH mothers who feel its their place. Because they feel this way, do you feel that they are setting the woman's movement back?
All I'm saying is if the roles were reversed and she told him to stay home more so she can make the bread because her father did, and he said no, would it be right for him to yell female chauvinist or sexist towards her?
If he felt her place was in the workforce like him and not at home with the children and he shout to her sexist or chauvinist, is he wrong?
How about it when it comes to some traditional gender-roles? Some men feel careless, enthusiastic, and very happy with them. Something that some men feel should be look at as admirable or commendable, like wanting to be the breadwinner so his wife doesn't have to work as hard and be there more for their children, is now looked at as chauvinism, sexism, or oppression, which is difficult for some men to understand and adapted to. All it really does is damages or derogates a man’s masculinity. Some men just believe women should be there more for their children because their mothers where for them.
Couldn't the way their mother was for them, instill a sense that they could grow up and be that way for their children as a father? Why the need to feel they wouldn't be just a capable to do it as their mother? Why should we tell our boys they can't do it as well as a woman? Why the belief that doing so would make them less manly or not something a man can be proud of himself for doing? I thought the belief that a woman is better than a man is what we call misandry?
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Originally Posted by Jax Star
Does that make him chauvinist or sexist?
If a anyone feels that women should do something simply because they are women even though a man can do it, then yes, they are being sexist. Just like if someone believes an man should do something for no reason other than they are a man is a sexist belief.
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Originally Posted by Jax Star
If so, would that make his own mother a teacher of chauvinism/sexism since she taught him to feel that way, whether subconsciously or not?
How would a woman being a caregiver qualify as her teaching him that women are the only ones to be care givers? If she actually verbalizes this, it would qualify, but that wouldn't be subconsciously if she was telling him only women could do it.
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Originally Posted by Jax Star
A man only wants the love and time his mother gave to him for his own children via his wife.
This is not the only thing men want.
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Originally Posted by Jax Star
Those men get put in the category of chauvinist pigs which is sad.
It isn't sad for someone to call them chauvinists if they feel women must be SAHM and that they, as a man, must be the bread winner and because they are the bread winner, they do the more important tasks and the woman must always be eternally grateful that he earns a paycheck and must show her gratitude by doing "her part" and nothing else. It is the need for women to be weak that makes a man a chauvinist.
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Originally Posted by Jax Star
Not all men believe that a woman’s place is at the home because men are superior to women. Everyone is just different. Some men want women to pull their weight financial.
That can and is some men's preference. It isn't right, it isn't wrong, it is just a preference. If a man has this preference it doesn't mean he ISN'T a man or as much of a man as someone who prefers his wife to be a SAHM.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jax Star
Some men are euphoric that they’re wives are the breadwinners and don't mind being a SAH dad.
And it should be accepted if a man chooses this role. He should be allowed to feel proud of himself for doing it. Just as proud as he might be of earning a paycheck because it is an important task. It wouldn't make him the "lesser" partner in the marriage. I don't feel a man wanting to be a SAHF is the result of feminism suppressing masculinity.I don't feel a woman being the bread winner to be feminism suppressing masculinity either.
If I thought that, it would be because I am overly mindful of gender and likely because I was being sexist.
I don't, however, believe there is any good in one spouse being "the head of the household". It sounds like a dictatorship. If the woman was a SAHM and said "I'm the head of the household because I run the household and therefore I get the final say in all matters" it would be counter productive to a marriage because it implies the she is above her husband. It would be just as counter productive for a woman to say the same thing if she was the one earning the bigger or only paycheck. So I don't see what good can come from either person trying to ursurp the other.
Couldn't the way their mother was for them, instill a sense that they could grow up and be that way for their children as a father? Why the need to feel they wouldn't be just a capable to do it as their mother? Why should we tell our boys they can't do it as well as a woman? Why the belief that doing so would make them less manly or not something a man can be proud of himself for doing? I thought the belief that a woman is better than a man is what we call misandry?
Couldn't the way their mother was for them, instill a sense that they could grow up and be that way for their children as a father? Yes it could, but visually whether a male grows up with just a father, a mother or both, he’s going to have those ideals of how he wants his spouse to help raise his children. If his mother was there more for him in situations he felt were comfortable or appropriate for a mother to be then he is going to want his wife to be their like that for his children. It’s not ALWAYS about him thinking that his wife can be a better parent than him. If he wants to heavily be involved with the child in a motherly fashion then that is his prerogative. I think this is more of a debate between males to what is masculine; just like it is a debate between females when a woman wants to be a SAH because it makes her feel more like a mother or it’s her place being a woman, but a working mother denigrates her for it as if she’s trying to set back the woman’s movement.
The belief that a woman is better than a man I thought was call female chauvinism. I’m pretty sure that misandry means the hatred of men?
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Originally Posted by sally4sara
How would a woman being a caregiver qualify as her teaching him that women are the only ones to be care givers? If she actually verbalizes this, it would qualify, but that wouldn't be subconsciously if she was telling him only women could do it.
I never said that!? I said that some men just believe women should be there more for their children because their mothers where for them. Sometimes actions speak louder than words; If not subconsciously, by demonstration or why not naturally. I think most woman are born with that natural instinct to be more nurturing and some are not. When a man has seen and felt that, he wants that for his child.
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Originally Posted by sally4sara
It isn't sad for someone to call them chauvinists if they feel women must be SAHM and that they, as a man, must be the bread winner and because they are the bread winner, they do the more important tasks and the woman must always be eternally grateful that he earns a paycheck and must show her gratitude by doing "her part" and nothing else. It is the need for women to be weak that makes a man a chauvinist.
Where did this “must” come from? You are evading and contorting my statements. I said something that some men feel should be looked at as admirable or commendable, like wanting to be the breadwinner so his wife doesn't have to work as hard and be there more for their children, is now looked at as chauvinism, sexism, or oppression, which is difficult for some men to understand and adapted to.
So wanting to relieve her is considered him looking at her as weak? It just seems that some men can’t win for losing unless he agrees to what his wife/SO wants otherwise he is pecked at as a chauvinist. Now that’s really sad!!
Like I sad to someone else, why does some women have to think one extremity to the next? Why is it you either have to be a housewife or a career woman? 100 or 100. Why think such distressful ultimatums for yourself if he's not thinking that way. This is why I think some women will classify all men, who request this, as being chauvinist or sexist. They go right to thinking the extreme. Why can't it be 40/60?
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Originally Posted by sally4sara
That can and is some men's preference. It isn't right, it isn't wrong, it is just a preference. If a man has this preference it doesn't mean he ISN'T a man or as much of a man as someone who prefers his wife to be a SAHM.
Right, I partially agree! That is his preference, but if a man feels being a working man to provide for his wife and kids makes him feel like a man who are we to judge? There are some women who feel there place is to be a stay-at-home mom which makes them feel more like a mother/woman. Do we call them female chauvinist or do we say that’s their preference?
Quote:
Originally Posted by sally4sara
And it should be accepted if a man chooses this role. He should be allowed to feel proud of himself for doing it. Just as proud as he might be of earning a paycheck because it is an important task. It wouldn't make him the "lesser" partner in the marriage. I don't feel a man wanting to be a SAHF is the result of feminism suppressing masculinity.I don't feel a woman being the bread winner to be feminism suppressing masculinity either.
If I thought that, it would be because I am overly mindful of gender and likely because I was being sexist.
Once again, that is not what I’m saying or what this topic is about. It’s not about him wanting to be a SAHF or a woman being the breadwinner suppresses his masculinity. What I’m say is if a man feels this or that makes him a man, who give a woman the right to derogate him for feeling that way, unless it’s afflicting.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sally4sara
I don't, however, believe there is any good in one spouse being "the head of the household". It sounds like a dictatorship. If the woman was a SAHM and said "I'm the head of the household because I run the household and therefore I get the final say in all matters" it would be counter productive to a marriage because it implies the she is above her husband. It would be just as counter productive for a woman to say the same thing if she was the one earning the bigger or only paycheck. So I don't see what good can come from either person trying to ursurp the other.
Because you’re thinking in a pessimistic matter with thoughts of usurpation. It could mean the protector or the one who does all of the heavy maintenance around the house, and not always being undermined for it. Every man has a different definition.
Think the only reason some men believe women should be more involved in a childs upbringing is because of natural instincts. Technology his altered that and is continuing to compensate (not change) that innate feeling.
Each time this board gets into a discussion about genders, it ends up to be a scenario of winning and losing, power and control over the other gender.
But what about individual happiness and control over one's own personal perceptions and lives?
bhweller and Taramere wrote some thoughtful posts I really felt inspired by, and wanted to respond to.
Yes, TBF - people can indeed write and share ideas, try to figure out why things happen, the way things tick, have curiousity about the world around them and people in it, with no judgment -- and have individual happiness and control over one's own personal perceptions and lives.
bhweller and Taramere wrote some thoughtful posts I really felt inspired by, and wanted to respond to.
Yes, TBF - people can indeed write and share ideas, try to figure out why things happen, the way things tick, have curiousity about the world around them and people in it, with no judgment -- and have individual happiness and control over one's own personal perceptions and lives.
Sorry deux ex machina. My intent wasn't to admonish you for your perspective or post.
It was just an observation on my part about the gender discussions that cause polarization, since extreme examples always come into play.
I guess overall, my attitude towards this is more individualized, where instead of looking to the other gender, to do what you want, to make your life easier, people need to do what they need to do, as they're in control of their own lives and destinies.
Each time this board gets into a discussion about genders, it ends up to be a scenario of winning and losing, power and control over the other gender.
But what about individual happiness and control over one's own personal perceptions and lives?
Well, that last part comes with someone being reasonably secure with who they are. I don't see it as a case of one gender being better than another. There are some men who I like and admire far more than I like and admire the majority of people I encounter. There are women I feel likewise about.
However, when you're reading a message board and you're constantly seeing this message drummed home that men are feeling emasculated by the way society is, then it makes you ask questions. I don't doubt that the OP here, and other men who have started similar threads, feel that way. The question for me is why? Is it because objectively society is becoming too feminine, or does he feel that way because he's questioning whether he personally is a manly enough man.
I agree with bhweller that a lot of influential institutions in society push an image of manliness that isn't the reality for most people. It happens with femininity too. To be a "proper woman" you should have, say, 34D boobs and a boyfriend who exudes testosterone. To be a proper man, you should be pumped up, aggressive and have a proper woman on each arm.
On another level, most reasonably mature and well adjusted people know that your gender is something you're born with. Realistically you don't become more of or less of a man/woman by spending time and money trying to conform to the images of manliness and femininity that are expounded in the media. Nor does what happens in politics and boardrooms, or what one person says to another, make any person more or less of whichever gender they were born into.
So when someone starts a thread that amounts to "society is making me feel like less of a man" they're not taking responsibility for their own psyche. And perhaps they can't take responsibility, because deep down they can't really figure out why they feel the way they do. They just know "this is how I feel. I don't want to feel this way - so there must be someone else out there who's forcing me to have these awful feelings about myself."
I don't want men to be wandering around like lost souls feeling as though they're not really men. I'm sure you don't either - and I'm sure most women generally don't want that. But neither do we want to be held to account as a gender (ie via claims that society is becoming too feminised), every time a man feels unmanly.
That book I mentioned is an example of someone trying to come up with answers for certain types of behaviour and attitudes which are, for want of a better word, femiphobic - when the common explanations for those attitudes don't seem to quite cut it, and seem designed to express anger and frustration rather than to seek truth. I don't think that's so much about anyone winning or anyone losing, as an attempt to make sense of that which can be hard to understand.
Last edited by Taramere; 25th September 2009 at 3:35 PM..
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I'm talking about love not trying to relive psychological and physical torment through your children. 
This is why I think some women will classify all men, who request this, as being chauvinist or sexist. They go right to thinking the extreme. Why can't it be 40/60? If he's just saying,"Hey Honey, you can have your career but you don't have to work as hard plus you can spend more time with the kids and I'll bring home most of the bacon"; because that makes him feel like a man, she shouldn't yell or think chauvinist/sexist so freely.
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