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A MM's story - really resonated with me


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Old 30th July 2017, 6:33 AM   #46
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Yes, the analogy is a particular low point. It drove me further from him. But, at least he was honest. I can't ask him for honesty and then be upset when he gives it to me. I know I should listen to him and realise I'm not special enough to him to have eclipsed his W in his affections. He said his feelings for me grow and they've exacerbated his marital problems. I think I deserve to be not one of two but just the one. He says it's not that binary...because there are children involved. If there weren't he might not be with her and to quote "there'd be a real chance we'd be together". A chance, not a definite. As someone else said he's told me he'd be able to sever ties with his W (if not kids) but he'd still fancy her...so even if I was his partner sounds like he'd be still sleeping with his W.

A while ago, I was fed up with what I perceived as his fence sitting (I love you both equally) and I said to him but what if you had to save just one of us and you could only save one...he said that he would choose himself because he couldn't pick between us. He wanted my takeaway to be 'so he must love us the same' but it wasn't, I thought, how characteristic of him...he'd choose himself. He always does. He even said to me if we were just friends still he'd warn me off guys like him because they're bad partners. He has some introspection.
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Old 30th July 2017, 6:40 AM   #47
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Elaine - I appreciate your advice. I am aware it all sounds terribly awful and it's never who I wanted to be, this weak doormat woman. I am just writing here to try and make some sense of my own feelings I guess and I thank you for your input. It's why I am here after all.

If I'm not around do you think he'll suddenly transform to become a better husband? He seems resigned to fact he's a 'bad husband'. He doesn't seem to want to work on the issues they face. He knows my presence in his life has exacerbated their problems 'accelerated fact they were heading to a stage of not getting on' (his words) but he always comes back. I walk away and he comes back. So he doesn't seem to have the appetite to work on it. I wonder if a d-day would force him to? Not that I'm suggesting I should be the one to reveal all.
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Old 30th July 2017, 6:46 AM   #48
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And no, I wouldn't want to expose my child to this man or for him to become her father. She needs strong and positive role models in men and although I have all these conflicting feelings for him, I know deep deep down, he has no boundaries and even if that doesn't make him intrinsically bad, he is almost certainly weak and cowardly, and she needs a strong man with integrity.
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Old 30th July 2017, 6:50 AM   #49
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So because he needs to cheat closer to home due to the small babes, that's him putting his kids' needs first? You're rationalizing.

I do think you writing this all out is good - the absurdity will be clearer. Please remember too that HES the problem. Not his wife, not the marriage. And wherever he is, he's going to be there with his big sack of problems.

Since your daughter is obvs the most important person in your life, what is this deceitful relationship teaching her? Please be a role model for her - one who has healthy relationships with kind men. He's insanely disrespectful to his own family - your mistake will be in thinking that he won't do the same to you - no one is soecial to him. This is how he treats his wife and kids, you have a front row seat to this train wreck. This guy is a loser. Being made to feel special by a cheater and a liar is NOT flattering. Being pursued by a married man doesn't mean you're super desirable or special to him, it means you're with a cheater. It also means you're shutting the door on meeting men who would adore you and your daughter, fully and authentically. And honestly.

He doesn't love you and his wife the way either of you deserves. He loves being the puppet master in this triangle, so he feels super cool. Sexy and attractive and manly is standing up for your family, not being a total tool to the people who love you and need you and trust you.
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Old 30th July 2017, 9:23 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BaileyB View Post
"One day, chocolate got thrown in..." like it was just a happy accident.

OMG - this just makes me laugh. This guy is something else...

I can't imagine telling my husband "I like vanilla, but why shouldn't I have chocolate too. I can't imagine not having both - chocolate and vanilla." That is such an entitled and arrogant statement to make - it's actually unbelievable to me that someone could feel that way.
It's ridiculous.

The chocolate didn't just get thrown in there. This guy drove to the store, bought the ice cream, drove home, carefully scooped it out, added it to the dish and stirred it all around until it ended up as a big sticky mess.

It's not an accident.
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Old 30th July 2017, 9:29 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by Serendipity55 View Post
Grammie - your post hit me hard. I know he chooses her and chose her (got married, has had another baby with her...on that he very recently said to be (after I said he has all he wants) "I have a wife, but I never said to you that's what I wanted. I said I wanted kids. I wanted a wife before we started". I don't know what he means but it is crazy talk as no-one forced him to marry).

I have no doubt he tells her how much he loves her - he's told me "I love her, I love you, I don't deny it".

In my rational mind is see him for what he is, the selfish (yet brutally honest with me at least - he tells me he loves us both the same, and also tells me how hard it is being with me) user of me and her. It's hard to admit he's not conflicted or confused but just fundamentally selfish. I'm seeing it more and more. He's happy because he's doing what he wants, getting all he wants. He's got a new baby (what he wants), a family/wife (what he wants), me (what he wants)...but he doesn't want to be a full-time husband because that doesn't make him happy so that's why he's not focussed fully on his family (when he has a newborn and a wife recovering from a c-section and a toddler).

He must justify it to himself because he says "i know I'm a bad husband but I am a great father because I'm there for my kids, providing, giving them what they need". He actually called me few days ago, on loudspeaker, with his older child in the back of the car. He'd just told me how the older child now has just started recounting things that have happened when out with him back to his mother who's at home. He was talking to me and was talking about us, in front of his son. Who apparently reports back to his mother. As soon as I realised the child could hear and possibly understand I said it wasn't appropriate and ended the call - but it was like it hadn't dawned on him, the risk.

For any WSs reading, when your As ended did it make you work on your marriage and did you become better spouses as a result or were just unhappily married? I wonder if I wasn't around in his life he'd be forced to be a better, full-time husband and father because he wouldn't have anywhere else to go.


I know we both deserve better (W and me) but she's in a state of blissful ignorance. At least I have choices. Maybe that's better (for her to be in the dark) but I do sometimes think "I wish she would find out somehow" so she could make informed choices about her life and so he's exposed for who he really is. As I'm already a cuckoo in her nest it seems like a new level of cruel to shatter her illusions but I do sometimes think it would be better long-term if somehow it all came to light.
He has a small baby and a wife who had a cesarian ( major surgery) less than a week ago and he is still trying to see you?

I had a cesarian, and was told that after the surgery, women need someone around the house to help out, if at all possible. That should be his first priority.

Look, I'm going to be blunt here.

You admit yourself that he isn't treating her well, and you also give the impression she doesn't deserve it.

If this was any other guy treating his wife that way, how would you feel? Would it be okay? If it's not okay if they do it, then the fact that you have a thing for her husband doesn't make it okay when he does it to his wife either.

Add to that the fact that you are helping him to hurt her.
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Old 30th July 2017, 9:38 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by Serendipity55 View Post
Yes, I do. Of course I do. I'm not without conscience.

I appreciate the honesty but I am also looking for support and not judgment. I don't know his W and my primary concern is my daughter and myself - doing what I need to do to not spiral and feel out of control and that's writing on here so I keep focussed on how the A is damaging primarily for me and my loved ones. I know I'm not a victim, I chose to have poor boundaries but although she's innocent she also doesn't know so all feels OK and normal in her world. Whereas in mine, whether I am the architect of my own pain or not, everything is not good and I am struggling with the sense of disappointment and rejection. Justified or not, I am where I am.

I am not meeting up with him and I am not giving him what he wants (to be back together). I am engaging with him but I'm not giving into him.

I would add from my own personal experience that having a newborn baby isn't the best days of your life. That's a romanticised view of it in my opinion. They're incredibly hard and I found it a very difficult and painful (physically) time. I was just trying to get through it to be honest. But hopefully that's not everyones experience.
I'm sorry, but he more you try and defend this guy, the worse you make him sound.

He has a newborn and a wife who just had a c-section, and he is trying to get in touch with you and meet with you?

dear god woman, take of those damned rose coloured glasses. You say yourself that the time when your child was a newborn was a tough one, and if she had a cesarian, hers was likely equally difficult. he can't even get his cr@p together for one measly week to care for his wife and child?

You say this guy loves you?

Madam, this man doesn't know the meaning of the word. If you need further proof, think on this.

A week ago, he sat with his wife, probably with tears on his face, while they admired and cooed over their new baby. He probably held her hand, told her he loved her, told her that she was amazing and that he was so happy with her.

meanwhile, he's got you and telling you he loves you, etc.

What a load of crap. If you love someone, you don't knowingly hurt them He's is doing that to both you and his wife, all the while probably smugly assuring himself that he is entitled to it all, because in his mind, the fact that he even exists indicates he deserves to be happy, no matter the cost to anyone else.
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Old 30th July 2017, 9:41 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by Serendipity55 View Post
Yes, the analogy is a particular low point. It drove me further from him. But, at least he was honest. I can't ask him for honesty and then be upset when he gives it to me. I know I should listen to him and realise I'm not special enough to him to have eclipsed his W in his affections. He said his feelings for me grow and they've exacerbated his marital problems. I think I deserve to be not one of two but just the one. He says it's not that binary...because there are children involved. If there weren't he might not be with her and to quote "there'd be a real chance we'd be together". A chance, not a definite. As someone else said he's told me he'd be able to sever ties with his W (if not kids) but he'd still fancy her...so even if I was his partner sounds like he'd be still sleeping with his W.

A while ago, I was fed up with what I perceived as his fence sitting (I love you both equally) and I said to him but what if you had to save just one of us and you could only save one...he said that he would choose himself because he couldn't pick between us. He wanted my takeaway to be 'so he must love us the same' but it wasn't, I thought, how characteristic of him...he'd choose himself. He always does. He even said to me if we were just friends still he'd warn me off guys like him because they're bad partners. He has some introspection.
So he would rather be with you, but for his children, e would be.

Then he gets his wife, who he has been married to for less than a year pregnant?

That makes no sense, except from the perspective that he is just where he wants to be.
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Old 30th July 2017, 9:51 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by Darren Steez View Post
When your value as a human being is reduced to an ice cream flavour.

So long as you perceive yourself to wallow in weakness and compare yourself in analogy to an ice cream flavour while your life drifts by, fair play.
My exMM compared me to a concert t-shirt. Tucked in a drawer to remember the good times. Ugh. Objectification, possession, depersonification. And he sees it as flattering. Like a robber saying thank you as they haul off with your things.

OP, you might appreciate this article https://lastsummerweekend.com/2016/0...they-use-them/

I dont agree with all of the bloggers views, but this helped me see how exmm and my views of love were different.

I disagree he loves you the same, he loves the ways in which you and his w each provide your respective service to him.

If he really loved both of you and was truly a polyamorous person, there would be the respect of letting his w know and the respect of not keeping you a secret. If he loved you the same, wouldnt he want to include you in important parts of his life? Whatever his "feelings" are, where are the corresponding actions? Holidays family gatherings doctor appointments plus one events, etc. He values her enough to reproduce with her, share living expenses with her etc and values you for...... what? emotional connection? which he also has with her at least to some degree.

What do YOU want to be valued for? The compartment he puts you in or who you ARE as a person? Even if he did find a backbone and want to live an authentic integrated life, is a poly situation really what you want or are you making exceptions for him? And if you are making exceptions, then you are dishonoring yourself by doing so.

This isnt a little thing like whether someone squeezes the toothpaste from the middle or not. This is a dealbreaker situation. Be intentional.

You really need to think about the end state of what you want and work backwards from there. Only make choices that will move you closer to that, not further.

It is really no benefit to speculate how he will be, or how their M will be without you. I know its hard. But it is really just another type of avoidance on your part IMO by spending mental energy directed externally on them instead of focusing on your reality and making the changes you want/need. FWIW my exmm and his w did have a dday. He admitted his affair to her and guess what, she admitted her affairs to him. You would think if he really loved me he would say ok great that's the perfect cue to exit. Nope. They did not reconcile but didnt divorce either. Last I knew they were still swirling in dysfunction, living together but free to do what each wanted.

Your mm isnt likely to initiate action. Especially as he's telling you he loves her. You're right that even if she kicked him out that wouldnt change. My exmm claimed to love two women. Then I was the only one he loved. Then he would always love his w. Then he hated her. It was ridiculous. I want a monogamous relationship with someone who is available physically and emotionally enough to make our relationship a priority or can state that as a goal and demonstrates it. That excludes living with a lover (former or current, I wont date men "living together separated" even if I CAN meet the other person), that excludes poly and open marriage situations, that excludes still having heartbroken or spiteful emotional attachment, that excludes still being the ex's go-to handyman or call for anything best friend, excludes single playboys just wanting hookups, excludes men with intimacy/anger/maturity issues, excludes 90 hour workweek schedules, etc. You see my point? It narrows the field significantly, but I'm not trying to force a square peg into a round hole wasting my time or risking my heart. It increases my chances of having room for the right fit with someone and I can rest at night at peace with my soul by living in my own integrity.

Heart and mind need to be in balance. Dont let him or your feelings for him skew who you are.
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Old 30th July 2017, 10:38 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by Serendipity55 View Post
Yes, the analogy is a particular low point. It drove me further from him. But, at least he was honest. I can't ask him for honesty and then be upset when he gives it to me. I know I should listen to him and realise I'm not special enough to him to have eclipsed his W in his affections. He said his feelings for me grow and they've exacerbated his marital problems. I think I deserve to be not one of two but just the one. He says it's not that binary...because there are children involved. If there weren't he might not be with her and to quote "there'd be a real chance we'd be together". A chance, not a definite. As someone else said he's told me he'd be able to sever ties with his W (if not kids) but he'd still fancy her...so even if I was his partner sounds like he'd be still sleeping with his W.

A while ago, I was fed up with what I perceived as his fence sitting (I love you both equally) and I said to him but what if you had to save just one of us and you could only save one...he said that he would choose himself because he couldn't pick between us. He wanted my takeaway to be 'so he must love us the same' but it wasn't, I thought, how characteristic of him...he'd choose himself. He always does. He even said to me if we were just friends still he'd warn me off guys like him because they're bad partners. He has some introspection.
Oh goodness. You sound like I did at one point...giving your MM "points" for "introspection" and honesty. Blech. I question that when still nothing fruitful comes of it. Beware.

His words sound confusing to you because they make NO SENSE. When someone contradicts themselves in the same sentence, it is naturally confusing. "I love you, but I also love my wife." "If it weren't for my children, I would be with you...but then again, I do have a connection with my wife." And did I read that he only recently got married? Are you the one who had an R with him before he got married? I can't recall, I get these stories mixed up sometimes. Because I am hearing that these are NEW children or at least very young. Why didn't he just have them with YOU? Then all of his problems would be solved. Well, except that he loves his wife too. So I guess not...right?

He is talking you around because he thinks he needs to say WHATEVER he can to keep you. He wants you both! He wants it all. It is not really about his kids. He wants what he has at home, and he wants you too. Period. Using "children" just makes things sound more noble, less painful, less about a comparison between the two women.

I am dumbfounded at his stupid answer to your question, but I'm not sure how much stock I would put into it. If someone put me in such an uncomfortable situation by asking me that, it would anger me and I might answer sarcastically just out of frustration (though probably not with that ridiculous response). It does make me question his level of EQ.

You asked earlier what happens to people after their affairs end, do they put more effort into their Ms. It all depends on the person, of course. Were they uncomfortable in the affair in the first place? Is it a relief to get out of it? Then yes, they might re-engage in their M. If they loved every bit of it and are returning to a lifeless, loveless M, then no, they will probably just go on to find another A. It is not perfectly black and white either. A person can care for their AP, even feel 'in love', and yet not feel like him/herself in the A. He/she can carry out the affair and yet all along feel at odds with herself or himself. And so, even if it appeared that there was lots of love and feeling, he/she can be quite relieved for it to be over...while at the same time requiring strong will to stay out of it. Crazy stuff indeed.

I hope some day, Serendipity, that you can take this man off the pedestal he currently resides on in your heart. It does not sound like he deserves it.
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Old 30th July 2017, 12:50 PM   #56
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Mine had just had his second child too when things became physical between us. I think there is something about the second child that makes men go crazy. Do they feel like it's the final nail in their coffin? That they're chained down for life now or something? Seems to me like having an A at this point is a desperate grab for an escape from real life.
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Old 30th July 2017, 1:01 PM   #57
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He's been with his W for 12 years. They got married a year ago. His children are 2.5 and 7 days old.

Before he got married, he said "I feel I should be with her...she's the love of my life". A few days ago, after the birth of his second child, he said "I think it's possible to have different loves of your life at different times. The man I am now feels that way about you and sometimes about her but recently we've not got on much at all and I question whether we'd be together if we didn't have the children now".

So I think when he got married he was fully into that life choice. The second child - I was always wanted a family, more than one child and I want my children to have siblings. It was always the plan i.e. so basically my presence and his growing feelings didn't budge him off that trajectory. Now I think he's feeling the strain having two young children and a tired wife puts on a relationship and looking for the lack of emotional connection with me.

He's cheated on his W before so I think, perhaps, he thinks he can get away with whatever. Further illustrated by his talking to me about our A in front of his child and also wanting me to be part of his main life by wanting me to spend time with him and his wife at their house, at parties, etc.

Even if I "got the spoils" I am aware they're very damaged and unattractive. I am in no doubt he'd treat me in the same way as his W (she has 12 years with him and 2 kids and he still cheats, I would be the old OW not the mother of his kids) if not worse. I need to work towards the future I always wanted. A family of my own with a man who has integrity. I know he's not that man. I just need to write here to sort out my very unruly mind.

Thanks for your patience and support - it's helping me.
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Old 30th July 2017, 1:05 PM   #58
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...wanting me to be part of his main life by wanting me to spend time with him and his wife at their house, at parties, etc.
I can't caution you enough against this. To a large degree I was already part of my x-MW's "main life" before the A started because we had been friends for years. But after the A started it was very difficult for me to be around family parties, join on vacation etc. because I constantly saw that yep, that's her REAL life, and I'm the secret. It messes even further with your already damaged sense of self-worth to incalculable degrees. Even now, she invites me over for dinner and wants me to hang out with her family just like nothing ever happened. Trust me, it's the worst feeling.
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Old 30th July 2017, 1:33 PM   #59
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Right now, I feel rising waves of anxiety, like I'm almost about to burst out of my skin. It feels like a loss of control. It's strange because there's been no d-day, he's not ended it (thus causing a sense of loss of control)...nothing has changed. So I don't know why I'm reacting this way.


We have a mutual friend. Her son is having his first birthday party in a few weeks. We're both invited. I think he's thinking about taking his W (as is his right) and I'm taking a friend (for support really). I am worried about the impact this will have on my already fragile self. I can't not go because my friend wouldn't understand - she'd think I was being flaky and I said i would go months ago. It's a big deal for her and to not show up for no apparent reason would hurt her. Equally, I don't feel it's 'fair' he gets to go and I don't - he looks like the good friend and I look a bit rubbish.

Maybe in a few weeks I will feel stronger. I'm not sure. Difficult to think calmly and rationally right now. Or to guess how I'll be then.
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Old 30th July 2017, 1:55 PM   #60
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I know I should listen to him and realise I'm not special enough to him to have eclipsed his W in his affections. I think I deserve to be not one of two but just the one. He said If there weren't he might not be with her and to quote "there'd be a real chance we'd be together". A chance, not a definite.

A while ago, I said to him but what if you had to save just one of us and you could only save one...he said that he would choose himself because he couldn't pick between us. He wanted my takeaway to be 'so he must love us the same' but it wasn't, I thought, how characteristic of him...he'd choose himself. He always does.

He even said to me if we were just friends still he'd warn me off guys like him because they're bad partners.
That is his disclaimer - he's warned you and if you chose to stay with him, what happens is not his fault and he has no reason be feel guilty. What a good guy

Dear girl, you are special. And you deserve to be special to someone - you deserve to be the chosen one, not one of two...

The fact that he tells you "there is a good chance we will be together" if he was not with his wife should say a lot... He is truly only looking out for his own self interest and although I'm sure he cares for you, he is not committed to you. You deserve someone who wants you above all else. I hope you are able to leave this man in your past and find that someday...
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