Friends: I Desperately Need <your advice on this former affair!>

[PachucaSunrise]

I hope you all got the Talking Heads reference... I wanted to lighten the mood as much as possible.

 

I'm having a really rough day and keep asking myself this question. Honestly, how in the hell did I ALLOW myself to get here? To have an A? To become the OW? To hurt and deceive a beautiful woman I never even knew? It continues to kill me inside.

 

I come from a great family... Parents have been married for 44 years (and I have an excellent relationship with them). I'm well-educated, extremely independent, witty, and have quite a few friends. I'm happy with my appearance and shape, and most importantly (to me, anyhow), I'm sensitive, empathetic, and very, very open-minded about the world around me.

 

What was I missing?? I just can't seem to understand it. Maybe I'm not supposed to understand, but I'd like to make some kind of sense of it, at the very least.

 

Why didn't I say no? I had other options, and I pushed them all aside.

 

I ignored his advances at first but eventually gave in. Why, OH WHY, did I ever do that?

 

Why was I so curious? I knew all the risks. I'm not an idiot. I know I can be a pushover at times, but I really thought I knew right from wrong.

 

Why did we continue when we knew we had crossed the line? I honestly didn't think it was fun or exciting. I fell hard. I think that while I was in the process of 'falling', he was riding high off of all the extra excitement in his life.

 

Why did I think I was passing up the opportunity of a lifetime?

 

I remember so clearly, the both of us saying time and time again, "If we never try, we're always going to wonder." I'm beginning to think that wondering would be better... We knew what would happen the first time we met - all the feelings would come to a head - and that's exactly what happened.

 

Why did we try to fool ourselves? We totally knew we were in trouble after spending 10 minutes together.

 

Was I really that much in the 'fog' thinking he was my prince charming?? I mean, I really did think that. Not only that, but in a twisted way, I thought I was 'saving' him from a loveless marriage. I REALLY did.

 

Where was my common sense?

 

Where was my compassion and altruism? My morals, which I try so carefully to live by?

 

Why was I okay with hearing, "WOW, I think I'm leaving my W for you." Hearing that always made me uneasy, but when I think about it now, it makes me sick to my stomach.

 

I've never understood A's and how people often find themselves in one. Never in a million years would I think that one day that would be me. Never. And yet here I am.

 

I guess this is more of a rant/vent. I don't expect answers to all of my questions - I pretty much know what the truth is. I'm just so incredibly disappointed in myself, and quite honestly, I don't know if I'll ever get over feeling this way.

 

It's been close to 2 months of NC, and I know that's for the best, but there hasn't been one day that has gone by in which I haven't mentally beat myself up in some way.

 

Counseling isn't going all that great. The guy I'm seeing does NOT want to talk about what's on my mind - the A - and I'm a therapist myself... I know how important it is to follow the client's lead. I'm still going to him, but I don't have the balls to tell him that I'd be more comfortable seeing someone else - someone who will actually listen to my thoughts IN THAT MOMENT. I know I REALLY need to do something about this, and SOON.

 

Thanks to all who took the time out to read this. Any feedback, good or bad, would definitely be appreciated, as always.

 

I just really want to know - when will I begin to truly forgive myself? Will I ever even be able to do that? I'm struggling here.

[HBIC]

PachucaSunrise, I've read a bunch of your posts on LS and you give outstanding advice to others.

 

Please be kind to yourself. I am in the same boat as you. I thought I had morals and was a kind person. Tons of options. But I fell in love with a MM too.

 

Why?

 

Well, that is the big question, right? For me: Lust? check. Compatibility? check. Vulnerability? check.

 

We HAVE to forgive ourselves. HAVE to. When I was really little, I stole something from the drugstore and my mom marched me back into the store and humiliated me in front of the cashier. Guess how many times I shoplifted after that? You live. You learn. Find a way to accept it as a lesson.

 

BTW, heard a great jazz interpretation of that song at a music festival recently.

[MayP]

PachucaSunrise, you write beautifully. I am sure you are a beautiful person My good friend has been drilling into me when I tell her all my sorrows/ missing of distance MM. She told me blunt and cold, YOU allow it. Even though he is away now, you allow him to pull you and manipulate you through emails. I can only nod in agreement.

[MayP]

The difference is you have taken your stand and you are clear of what you want or should do. You are up the shores on that already! Good girl!

 

I am still swimming struggling in the muddy pool.

[mercy]

And I May Ask Myself, Well...How Did I get Here?

 

This is the title of your thread. In reality you know exactly how you got 'here'. It was your choice, all along it was your choice. Sometimes it's better, more comfortable to distance oursefles from our choices, it absolves us from our 'sins'. Makes us sleep better at night. Always looking for a more difficult more complicated answer that just isn;t there.

 

Plain and simple you had an itch and no amount of you circumstance was going to change that. You put that itch first. Above your fsmily above what you knew to be right and wrong.

 

So what are you and your husband doing with this discovery?

[PachucaSunrise]

PachucaSunrise, I've read a bunch of your posts on LS and you give outstanding advice to others.

 

Thank you so much, HBIC! That really means a lot to me. I honestly love coming here, and I do my best to reach out to others in their time of need. I know, first hand, just how helpful and therapeutic that is - for both sides. Such a great community to be a part of and I'm so grateful to have found it. It's a 'pay it forward' type of place, you know? Everything seems to come full-circle.

 

When I wrote my first thread, I was completely overwhelmed by all the non-judgmental, selfless, and truly supportive words of wisdom I received. Like people on here often say, sometimes this place REALLY IS better than any kind of therapy. I couldn't agree more.

 

Please be kind to yourself. I am in the same boat as you. I thought I had morals and was a kind person. Tons of options. But I fell in love with a MM too.

 

Why?

 

Well, that is the big question, right? For me: Lust? check. Compatibility? check. Vulnerability? check.

 

Thank you. I'm trying, and I hope you are as well. If I don't become more proactive about my well-being, I know there will come a point in time where I will be so mentally and emotionally beat up that I simply will not have the energy to do it any further. I don't want to get to that point. I know I have to start fully accepting my mistakes NOW... It's just that I'm having a very difficult time doing that and I have no idea why. Acceptance? Probably. I take two steps forward and then fall back a bit. I just want to get myself to a good place and build on that.

 

Yep - everything you mentioned above rings true for me as well. I'm right with you - all the necessary ingredients for the perfect storm.

 

We HAVE to forgive ourselves. HAVE to. When I was really little, I stole something from the drugstore and my mom marched me back into the store and humiliated me in front of the cashier. Guess how many times I shoplifted after that? You live. You learn. Find a way to accept it as a lesson.

 

Ha!! I'll tell you what... That sounds EXACTLY like something my mom would have done with me when I was a kid. No doubt about that! Great story!

 

But, yeah, soooooo true about the living and learning part. I've been doing both; it's the forgiveness part I struggle with. I have very little difficulty forgiving others, but when it comes to myself, it's a completely different story.

 

BTW, heard a great jazz interpretation of that song at a music festival recently.

 

Awesome! Such a great tune. Must have sounded neat as a jazz interpretation.

 

PS. I just read through your thread and have quite a bit to say about it. Hopefully I'll be able to add some helpful points tomorrow. As I'm sure you already know, It's SO MUCH EASIER to see it from the 'outside'.

 

Thanks again for your kind words, HBIC!

[PachucaSunrise]

PachucaSunrise, you write beautifully. I am sure you are a beautiful person My good friend has been drilling into me when I tell her all my sorrows/ missing of distance MM. She told me blunt and cold, YOU allow it. Even though he is away now, you allow him to pull you and manipulate you through emails. I can only nod in agreement.

 

Awwww, thanks, May! I truly appreciate your kind words.

 

Sounds like you have a REALLY GOOD friend. Seriously. I know the truth cuts like a knife sometimes, but someone's gotta spill those beans, whether or not we wanna hear them. I'm sure it wasn't easy for her to tell you those things, but I bet all of what she's been saying is coming from a place of love. I'd keep her around.

 

The difference is you have taken your stand and you are clear of what you want or should do. You are up the shores on that already! Good girl!

 

I am still swimming struggling in the muddy pool.

 

I really appreciate your encouragement, May. Thank you for noticing that I have found my way through the 'muddy waters', so to speak. It's still a little mucky out there, but I'm slowly making my way, little by little.

 

You may not have found your way just yet, but if you keep swimming, you most certainly will. It's a difficult process, but not impossible. ALWAYS remember that.

 

Keep that chin up, remember what you deserve, and don't EVER settle for less. I'll be watching out for you on here.

[MayP]

She truly is a great friend. It cuts, always does. when she says it out to me, when I think about it. when I remind myself, he probably is only looking out for ego boost/ chance of sex, compartmentalizing sex with love (which I cannot do), he will hurt me if we ever meet again; leave and go back to his life of wife/kid.

 

You are like my friend. I ask her ever so often, will I be ok- forget him snap out of him shift him out of my thoughts?

Her reply will always be "yes dear, you will be fine."

 

I need that. thank you.

[PachucaSunrise]

And I May Ask Myself, Well...How Did I get Here?

 

This is the title of your thread. In reality you know exactly how you got 'here'. It was your choice, all along it was your choice. Sometimes it's better, more comfortable to distance oursefles from our choices, it absolves us from our 'sins'. Makes us sleep better at night. Always looking for a more difficult more complicated answer that just isn;t there.

 

Oh, I completely agree with you - I definitely made some questionable and free-willed choices to end up 'here', but I am certainly not comfortably distancing myself from these choices. And I'm clearly not sleeping all that well at night, as it's 4 AM where I live.

 

I'm also not trying to absolve myself from any 'sins'; I'm trying to accept my mistakes and forgive myself for my poor decisions. And I'm not looking for a more complicated answer than what I already know to be the truth - I screwed up - plain and simple.

 

Using poor judgment and simply moving on with my life, without exploring the why's of what got me there and the how's of how to avoid such behaviors and situations in the future is a form of self-reflection. That is what I choose to do. If I were distancing myself from my poor choices, I would not bat an eyelash and simply continue on with my life, 'sins' and all. I'm utilizing self-reflection as a way to understand what I was lacking within myself during my time of 'sinning', so I can better myself and therefore make more appropriate choices in the future.

 

Plain and simple you had an itch and no amount of you circumstance was going to change that. You put that itch first. Above your fsmily above what you knew to be right and wrong.

 

Yes, I put my itch above my personal morals and values - there's no doubt about that - and that is something I'm CLEARLY not at all proud of. However, I never put it before my family.

 

No well-adjusted person simply wakes up one day and decides to have an A. There's much, much more to it than that, and this is precisely what I'm trying to understand and reflect upon. I want to become a better person and learn from my mistakes, and this process of self-reflection is helping me do so, and so are most of the people here on LS.

 

So what are you and your husband doing with this discovery?

 

Nothing - you can read about this in my previous posts/threads if you wish.

 

Best of luck to you, Mercy!

[HBIC]

PachucaSunrise, though our situations were slightly different, it seems we are in similar stages in the recovery process. A big hug to you.

 

I re-read your old threads and I'm sorry that your xMM reached out to you on a dating site to poke at you, and that there was some false hope that it might lead to something meaningful if only for a moment. It seems like he was on dating sites just for that: to date other women. Men are verrrrrrry simple creatures. Us ladies are always twisting ourselves into knots trying to interpret them but men just do exactly what they want to do. If a guy wants to be with us? He is. If he doesn't? He isn't. Simple.

 

Generally speaking men going through a divorce or recently post-divorce are best left alone for a good chunk of time because it takes time for them to sort out their feelings. It's more fun to date guys that are thinking of you, not licking wounds. Let the guys dealing with the big D burn though other ladies who want to deal with that. Case in point, your xMM is having a ball playing the field. He's got the "just out of prison" mentality right now. I suggest a wide, wide berth. NC is fabulous for that.

 

I think both of us should tread lightly in the dating department. Now is a good time for us to focus on ourselves and rebuild. Have you been hitting the gym as you mentioned? Exercise is such an important part of wellness. You mentioned losing 20lbs. Did you have an extra 20lbs to lose? If not, you need to focus on nourishing yourself right now especially if you are also taking up exercise. Gotta have some curves

 

Thanks for looking at my thread. LS is a wonderful place and the folks here give such terrific advice. I've noticed that sometimes the really harsh, kinda mean advice (after the initial sting) is the best advice.

 

You and I can make a resolution never to go near another MM for the rest of our lives. This might be tough for the BSs (sorry) but some of the A was fun, I'm sure. As time passes, hopefully the A will turn into just a little blip of a memory. The pain will keep us from engaging in another affair, but there will be small moments of happiness that we can be grateful for too.

[Owl6118]

You remember Stop Making Sense? LOL. I somehow imagined you a generation younger than that. Or maybe you are and just have good taste in music.

 

Three thoughts, PS.

 

First, in my limited experience (and it is really limited) I have never seen someone who had an affair interrogate her decision making as clearly as you have, as quickly as you have, and with as much clarity about the degree of accountability that rests at your door. This is to your very great credit.

 

Second, on the question of changing therapists: make the change. When your inner voice is telling you you need something different, listen to it. And-- and this is the rub, isn't it, cause it's never the passive listening that's the hard part-- act on it. Knowledge that flows into action is the pattern of mental health. Weave it again for yourself. Ask yourself: if I were my patient, what would I advise?

 

Third, and here I am very hesitant, but maybe mull on it and see if you find any truth in it.... I have a theory that affairs are in large part failures of empathy. They happen when people have an undiscovered need/anxiety/inadequacy/flaw in themselves whose voice is so urgent and so insistent and so selfish that it overrides their ability to place themselves in the shoes of the other, feel the other's prospective pain that will result from the contemplated action, feel their own future pain that will result from betrayal of values. So I would suggest reflecting on the role of empathy in your life and your living of it in connection with other people. It seems to me your sense of empathy is very strong. All the more striking, then, that it was shouted down by other perceived needs or wants of yours when you came into contact with this man. There must be something missing there-- some pretty howling, hungry hole-- that the need for filling it (even if that need only came out from hiding when you met a particular man who promised to fill it) overrode completely your normal kindness and compassion and ability to value others' feelings as highly as your own.

 

That is a scary need. It is probably hiding now, as much as it can, and trying frantically to keep your attention fixed elsewhere-- on the MM, on guilt, on self-reproach, on anything but grabbing it and hauling it out into the sun.

 

Find it. Get it in the sun. Stare it down. Until it shrinks like the Witch of the West after Dorothy throws the bucket.

[skywriter]

PachuaSunrise,

 

Your post brings back so many emotions and questions that I struggled with a couple of years ago.

I'm 2 years and a month out of my A, now. Yay!

 

I'm in a relationship with a single man.

 

I questioned how I could compromise myself and doubted all my beliefs about how to treat others. I beat myself up and felt disgusted with myself and yet I continued for nearly 6 years.

 

It's exhausting and then I came to a crossroad and said regardless of the whys,I'm not cut out for this and I need to get back to my authentic self because my soul feels drained.

 

I think that Owl6118, makes some perceptive points as well. When we experience life changing events we do become very vulnerable to choices out of our normal if you will.

 

We may choose to do things self destructive to us, because we feel we are failures. So, when we are going through life altering changes, we aren't ourselves essentially.

 

So yes, taking responsibility is a vital part of healing and is forgiving yourself and allowing yourself to heal and move forward in life.

 

I have and I'm looking forward to reading that you are as well.

[HBIC]

I have a theory that affairs are in large part failures of empathy. They happen when people have an undiscovered need/anxiety/inadequacy/flaw in themselves whose voice is so urgent and so insistent and so selfish that it overrides their ability to place themselves in the shoes of the other...

 

There must be something missing there-- some pretty howling, hungry hole-- that the need for filling it (even if that need only came out from hiding when you met a particular man who promised to fill it) overrode completely your normal kindness and compassion and ability to value others' feelings as highly as your own.

 

I think that "need," the hungry, howling black pit, is for love. When we truly love ourselves we don't accept or allow others to treat us poorly. In an A, OW/OMs accept crumbs because they don't love themselves enough to turn down someone offering only crumbs. Sometimes you don't realize that you don't love yourself. Recovery from an A means you can look at yourself in the mirror and say, "Wow! Now I see that something is broken and I can fix it." And be grateful for the opportunity.

 

The funny thing is... there is no hole. We might behave as though there is a hole, but we are, in fact, whole. Fortunately, realizing you are whole only needs to take a second. Bam!

 

And with that, no more LS for me today. Life's going on and I gotta catch that train!

[snappytomcat]

dear Pachuca

you know how I feel about you,please don't beat yourself up,just keep moving forward,on my way to work so cant write more,just wanted you to know,that I wish the xow in my situation was more like you,thats a weird thing to say I know,i wish there wast an ow,but there was and I cant change that

[Hope Shimmers]

Pachuca....

 

Just the fact that you posted this - that you are asking yourself "How did I get here?" says volumes about the kind of person you are.

 

I wish I had a brilliant answer, but I don't. I will just say that perhaps we had to go through this to come out the other side and never do it again - to ourselves or anyone else. Maybe others will do it again, but we won't. Maybe we should forgive ourselves for giving in to our heart instead of using our heads. Maybe next time we will remember to engage not one but both.

[PachucaSunrise]

I just wanted to check in quick as I'm working right now. I wanted to let you guys know that I've read through all of your posts several times, and for a lack of a better term at the moment - you guys are awesome - plain and simple. THANK YOU for your thoughtful responses. It means the world to me.

 

I certainly have quite a bit to think about. So much of what all of you have written struck many, many chords within me - thank you for that - it's been very helpful.

 

I will definitely get back to all of you when I have the time to respond in a more thoughtful manner.

 

I just wanted to say thanks for now. As always, I am forever grateful for your kindness and willingness to lend your helpful hands.

[Owl6118]

PS, I just took a walk and as I was walking, I found myself thinking of you and your questions.

 

I feel I have the edges of thoughts for you, but can't quite get them to gel. I am going to try to write it out anyway and see if it will come together.

 

In my mind, these thoughts take the form of exercises you can try.

 

You seem to be fluctuating between two emotional states. Sometimes when you post, you are struggling with your continuing attachment to xMM. Other times, you self-reproach for acting against your sense of your best self in forming this attachment has the upper hand.

 

You need to work through and get past both these states, for in the long run, neither is a healthy place for you to stay.

 

I am now going to ask you to maybe try some exercises, that involve asking yourself questions that have very sharp elbows.

 

1. On seeing yourself

 

When you pine, what precisely are you pining for? Play back your internal monologue to yourself, but listen to it with your sharp clinicians' ear. What is the xMM in your mind saying that you are responding to? When you visualize him with lingering longing, what is he saying and doing?

 

I know your felt a connection right away. But what in you was he connecting with? Very specifically, very concretely, what did he say/do that caused you to think "this is what I have been needing."

 

Because here, right here, you will find a huge clue to help you define the hole you tried to fill with him during the affair, and your mind is trying to fill still with thoughts of him.

 

When you can find that need, that hole, I bet you can immediately begin to think of ways, or find a counselor to help you find ways, to acknowledge it and heal it rather than feed it. But it is going to take courage, real courage. You must look straight at yourself, find the thing that suddenly feels painful or shameful or secret and makes you want to flinch, and stare searchingly at exactly that place.

 

2. On seeing him

 

Imagine your situation as if a client were relating it to you. For example: you have a client who says to you "PS, my marriage has had terrible struggles. My wife is an alcoholic and she cheated on me with a guy she met in AA. I resent her sobriety. I associate it with her cheating. And I miss my 'old' life - the life where I am able to go out to dinner and have a glass of wine with with her, go to a baseball game and have a beer with her, go to concerts, etc. Ever since she became sober, I have my "drinking nights," where she goes to bed after attending a 'meeting', and I sit alone downstairs, caught a buzz, and watch some TV." As a therapist, what would your pen be writing on your notepad. I have some suspicions that it would write words like hurt, and betrayed, and harmed, but also would write co-dependent, and unsafe partner to his wife's recovery from addition. In short--not a guy ready for any intimate relationship. See him as a patient, not your lover-- and you will see him as he is.

 

3. On context

 

Take away the specialness and intensity of the epistolary romance followed by the affair. Put him on a timeline at the same level as your other intimate connections. How does he fit in the arc of your intimate relationships? More different, or more similar? Each-- difference and similarities-- might offer clues to what he did for you that led you to set aside what your clinician's head would have seen, and what your kind and empathetic heart would normally have felt.

 

4. On unfinished business.

 

I just re-read your first thread, and something lept out at me that I had missed before: "he began sharing things with me that he should have been sharing with his W, and I began sharing things with him that I should have been sharing with my BF." BF... that slipped right by me, because you have told us almost nothing of this relationship and this man. Nor do you need to. All I will ask is--are there amends that need to be made there? Is there something you need to say to him, whether he can hear it or accept it or not, that will help you be right with yourself? Have you done all you can to put him in a place to heal from hurt?

[still_an_Angel]

Oh Pachuca, your reflections always make me think of my situation. Please be kind to yourself, you are a good person who had a major bump in life and made a poor choice. But you have accepted what you have done and is taking responsibility for putting yourself on the right track again. That alone speaks volumes, I admire your courage for walking away from your MM. You are doing very well and one day, you will wake up and feel good like never before.

 

 

I've read your posts, watched your story unfold, and walked (in spirit) with you as you struggled with breaking up with MM. You have taken a lot from your strength/courage cupboard and just need to replenish. I hope you feel better in the coming days.

 

 

Hugs to you ... Angel

[MayP]

I see different people are at different stages of this treacherous journey, different points of this swim up-shore.

 

I am right at the start I suppose. Because I still have the hopes of letting myself deal with the crumbs from MOM. All because I think I love him, love him enough to hurt myself to some extent. Full of regret that we didn't start/ have much memories etc. and we are separated by distance. Circumstances made the decision.

For those whom turned, what are the turning points? The 'bam' moment. considering you still think he loves you.

[PachucaSunrise]

PachucaSunrise, though our situations were slightly different, it seems we are in similar stages in the recovery process. A big hug to you.

 

You're right - I do think we are in similar stages in the recovery process. I read through your thread again today but couldn't seem to gather my thoughts to write something substantial. Not to worry, though, it's coming, and as usual, I'm sure I'll have quite a bit to say, haha.

 

A BIG, FAT hug to you as well. Thank you!

 

I re-read your old threads and I'm sorry that your xMM reached out to you on a dating site to poke at you, and that there was some false hope that it might lead to something meaningful if only for a moment. It seems like he was on dating sites just for that: to date other women. Men are verrrrrrry simple creatures. Us ladies are always twisting ourselves into knots trying to interpret them but men just do exactly what they want to do. If a guy wants to be with us? He is. If he doesn't? He isn't. Simple.

 

Thanks, HBIC. That was a tough blow, but you know what? I'm still standing. And you are absolutely right about how we seem to twist and turn ourselves into knots when trying to understand men. My mom always says - when someone REALLY wants to be with you, get in touch with you, see you, etc... They will find a way, come hell or high water. Such a simple statement, but it works both ways and is completely true regardless of the excuses we may tend to make for either side.

 

Generally speaking men going through a divorce or recently post-divorce are best left alone for a good chunk of time because it takes time for them to sort out their feelings. It's more fun to date guys that are thinking of you, not licking wounds. Let the guys dealing with the big D burn though other ladies who want to deal with that. Case in point, your xMM is having a ball playing the field. He's got the "just out of prison" mentality right now. I suggest a wide, wide berth. NC is fabulous for that.

 

AGREED - 100%. Obviously, I've never been in a situation like this before... Come to think of it, I think I've dated ONE divorced man, EVER. And he was far along in his healing journey. But yes, men going through a divorce, or even recently divorced, are best left alone. A very tricky situation, indeed. I've promised myself that I will never end up 'here' again. And I'm going so far as to say that if I ever hear "I'm currently going through a divorce, or "I'm newly divorced", I'm running in the opposite direction and never looking back. I'm 35, and I realize that at this stage of the game, we all have our baggage, but I've learned the hard way when too much is just too much. Never, ever again.

 

I think both of us should tread lightly in the dating department. Now is a good time for us to focus on ourselves and rebuild. Have you been hitting the gym as you mentioned? Exercise is such an important part of wellness. You mentioned losing 20lbs. Did you have an extra 20lbs to lose? If not, you need to focus on nourishing yourself right now especially if you are also taking up exercise. Gotta have some curves

 

Absolutely! Just as you are, I'm learning, growing, and doing my best to rebuild. This is the perfect time for that.

 

I HAVE been hitting the gym, which has been a huge help. I definitely had the extra 20 pounds to lose; I just wish I had lost it in a more healthy manner. But now that it's gone, I'm trying to take advantage of it. Appetite is still pretty bad, so I've been trying to load up on vitamins and those Ensure drinks. Energy has also been very low, but I know that also relates to my eating and sleeping habits, as well as the constant stress.

 

Oh, heck no! I never wanna lose my curves, haha. I'm definitely on board with ya there!

 

Thanks for looking at my thread. LS is a wonderful place and the folks here give such terrific advice. I've noticed that sometimes the really harsh, kinda mean advice (after the initial sting) is the best advice.

 

Oh, you're more than welcome... I'm looking forward to reading through it again (as well as responding), once I get my A-game back. My head's been in the clouds these past few days and I don't want that to rub off on anyone, especially if I'm trying to lend a helping hand.

 

And yes, I also agree about the terrific advice on here - brutal or not - mostly all of it comes from a place of true honesty and you certainly can't beat that.

 

You and I can make a resolution never to go near another MM for the rest of our lives. This might be tough for the BSs (sorry) but some of the A was fun, I'm sure. As time passes, hopefully the A will turn into just a little blip of a memory. The pain will keep us from engaging in another affair, but there will be small moments of happiness that we can be grateful for too.

 

Count me in, girl!!!! NEVER, EVER again. EVER!

[PachucaSunrise]

You remember Stop Making Sense? LOL. I somehow imagined you a generation younger than that. Or maybe you are and just have good taste in music.

 

Heck yeah, I remember Stop Making Sense! I'm in my mid to late-thirties, my friend! Wow, did that sound weird to say as I read it to myself. Phew! But I gotta be honest with you, I think that's only because I have good taste in music, hahaaa! Obviously, you do as well. Rock on!

 

I apologize in advance if my words don't come out as pretty as I'd like them to right at the moment. My mind has been one big jumble, but I will do my best to express my thoughts as clearly as possible.

 

First and foremost - as always, Owl, your keen perceptiveness and insight blows my mind (hopefully I used those terms correctly). It never fails - every single time I read a post from you, on every thread, really - your attention to detail and ability to TRULY read between the lines is phenomenal. Nothing gets past you. What a gift you have, and I think that's just wonderful!

 

Three thoughts, PS.

 

First, in my limited experience (and it is really limited) I have never seen someone who had an affair interrogate her decision making as clearly as you have, as quickly as you have, and with as much clarity about the degree of accountability that rests at your door. This is to your very great credit.

 

This means a great deal to me, Owl. Thank you for noticing. I feel as though I've done my best to dissect my situation from every angle humanly possible. I've definitely done some ruminating, which hasn't been the healthiest of choices, but more than anything, I'm determined to get to the very bottom of my mess. I want to learn, accept, take accountability, grow, and do whatever else I can to better myself. This has been a HUGE mistake, there's no doubt about that, but I don't think I'll ever move on from it until I'm able to accept that I faltered on my quest to becoming the best possible version of myself. I'm beginning to realize that's my biggest issue at the moment - acceptance - such a difficult concept to fully digest. I believe that in some ways, I'm more or less trying to punish myself. And if I continue on this path, I will remain 'stuck', which will most likely lead to complete self-destruction. It's certainly been one hell of a struggle, and if I don't snap out of it soon, I will continue to miss out on all of the beautiful things life has to offer. Something's gotta give, and I know it's up to me to make that happen, and SOON.

 

Second, on the question of changing therapists: make the change. When your inner voice is telling you you need something different, listen to it. And-- and this is the rub, isn't it, cause it's never the passive listening that's the hard part-- act on it. Knowledge that flows into action is the pattern of mental health. Weave it again for yourself. Ask yourself: if I were my patient, what would I advise?

 

What a great way to look at it! I would advise to find a better match, no doubt about it. One of the most important aspects of the client-therapist relationship is the level of comfort between the two, and with that comes the willingness of the client to begin to trust and self-disclose with the therapist.

 

After several sessions, I don't feel ANY level of comfort with my therapist. And I always catch him looking at the clock above my head - a HUGE and obvious no-no. I wanted to call him out on it a few times, just to see his reaction, but figured that would only make things more awkward.

 

Yeah, it's definitely time to shop around. Thank you for the nudge.

 

Third, and here I am very hesitant, but maybe mull on it and see if you find any truth in it.... I have a theory that affairs are in large part failures of empathy. They happen when people have an undiscovered need/anxiety/inadequacy/flaw in themselves whose voice is so urgent and so insistent and so selfish that it overrides their ability to place themselves in the shoes of the other, feel the other's prospective pain that will result from the contemplated action, feel their own future pain that will result from betrayal of values. So I would suggest reflecting on the role of empathy in your life and your living of it in connection with other people. It seems to me your sense of empathy is very strong. All the more striking, then, that it was shouted down by other perceived needs or wants of yours when you came into contact with this man. There must be something missing there-- some pretty howling, hungry hole-- that the need for filling it (even if that need only came out from hiding when you met a particular man who promised to fill it) overrode completely your normal kindness and compassion and ability to value others' feelings as highly as your own.

 

That is a scary need. It is probably hiding now, as much as it can, and trying frantically to keep your attention fixed elsewhere-- on the MM, on guilt, on self-reproach, on anything but grabbing it and hauling it out into the sun.

 

Find it. Get it in the sun. Stare it down. Until it shrinks like the Witch of the West after Dorothy throws the bucket.

 

I'm glad you brought all of this up, Owl. I see quite a bit of truth to your theory. It really struck me when I first read it earlier today and I've been thinking about it ever since. It also relates to your other post (but I'd like to respond to that one separately as this one is only the tip of the iceberg).

 

This is kinda tough to do, but at this moment, I am fully admitting to myself that my 'hole' is that I NEED TO FEEL NEEDED - classic co-dependent - and yes, it is quite a scary 'need'. And as HBIC suggested, I also agree that this 'hunger' you speak of is indeed a hunger for love. It makes complete sense.

 

I do have a strong sense of empathy toward others, so much that I often put their wants and needs before mine. In my mind, I truly want to help... To listen... To care... To FIX. I honestly do! But in reality, giving myself to others in this way somehow selfishly satisfies my own need of feeling wanted. In a sort of warped way of thinking, I am really helping them, but I'm also helping myself fill that 'needy' void.

 

Wow! Truly, truly insightful of you, Owl. Was that your idea all along? The co-dependent thing? Was it something you were suspecting but wanted to help me discover on my own? Are you a psychologist, lol?! Cuz, DAMN, you are good!

 

Everyone I know would describe me as being fiercely independent, simply because that's exactly how I present myself. It's interesting too that XMM often said he was intimidated by that aspect of my personality. But in reality, this 'independent' and self-sufficient portrayal I give off is my defense mechanism, my way of protecting myself from being hurt or betrayed... When I let someone 'in' and allow them to focus on my wants and needs instead of the other way around, well, it puts me in a vulnerable position, and that's something I seem to avoid at all costs... Hence, the A, a situation that I (probably) subconsciously thought would never end up actually hurting me (or anyone else for that matter). Because really, having one was never my intention. It honestly never even crossed my mind. XMM was MARRIED, and I knew that. I was just his shoulder to lean on, and so it was a safe situation, or so I thought...

 

My whole relationship with XMM was pretty much based on his wants and needs. He was in a tough spot, and sure enough, I happened to cross paths with him at exactly the right time. I definitely didn't seek him out, but the situation was ripe for me to want to be his crying shoulder. And when he began telling me his sob story, I immediately got all geared up to be his little helper. Out of all the people in his life, he chose ME to confide in?! That must have made me feel exceptionally special!

 

So while XMM was being fulfilled by my understanding and empathetic nature, I was also being fulfilled by him 'needing' me to be there for him. A very messed up relationship, but we were both getting what we needed out of it. Makes all the sense in the world.

 

Eventually, I let my guard down and let XMM into my world, but by that time, we were in well over our heads. Oh, and so, so many times he would tell me how happy and privileged it made him feel that I allowed myself to feel vulnerable with him - I'm sure it did, just as it did the same for me in reverse. The lines between our wants and needs (and reality) became so blurred that we mistakenly believed what we had found was in fact true love, the 'Real Deal', when we were simply filling the empty spaces in each other's lives.

 

Wow, WHAT. A. REVELATION!

 

Writing this message back to you has been unbelievably therapeutic. Thank you for that, Owl. I look forward to tackling your next post tomorrow.

 

I hope all is fairing well in your neck of the woods.

[gettingstronger]

I always feel like the downer when I post honest experiences on here, please know thats not my intention-

 

We are 17 months post dday and my husband is still struggling with those questions- he has days when his self-hate is nearly paralyzing- for him, he says he can not undo it and so he must live everyday with who he allowed himself to become-

 

I think for me, my wish for him and for you is to understand the power of redemption- I speak of it a lot and its not in the religious sense-its in the human sense-

 

I would not be reconciling if I did not believe in redemption- for me, its not so much forgiving, forgetting or even understanding why-its a matter of believe one can be redeemed-

 

Well, thats me on a good day on a bad day- I am a stark raving lunatic-

 

It happens-!

[Owl6118]

I think for me, my wish for him and for you is to understand the power of redemption- I speak of it a lot and its not in the religious sense-its in the human sense-

 

I would not be reconciling if I did not believe in redemption- for me, its not so much forgiving, forgetting or even understanding why-its a matter of believe one can be redeemed-

 

I too believe in the transformative power of redemption with all my heart.

 

When I was a drinking alcoholic, I could not get through the day without a drink. Then, after months and months of self-loathing, the day came when the pain of being me was more than I could stand. I went to an AA meeting on a Thursday night, and for 364 more nights thereafter that first year. And I never had another drink.

 

How is it that on Wednesday I could not get through the day without drinking, and on Thursday I began what is now 20 years of days without drinking?

 

True Remorse. Road to Damascus moment. Conversion. Redemption.

 

I believe that people can be redeemed, and that behaviors that they were enslaved to for years can change in a night-- IF, IF, IF they have hit bottom. Real bottom. True, gut churning remorse. And commitment never to hurt others, and themselves, that way any longer.

 

Not everyone gets it. I knew many good people who never got a lasting hold of sobriety. I imagine there are also many people who have much good in them in other aspects of life, but who never find the bottom that lets them look unflinchingly at why they choose betrayal, and so continue to betray and cause harm and devastation to themselves and their intimate partners. Redemption is a grace undeserved, not an entitlement.

 

But hell yes -- I believe in redemption.

[ChuckS34]

I just read your post and it's compelling to me because I find myself on the other side of this. My wife is currently seeing someone, at first in secret, and now out it the open. She states he's just a friend. I don't believe her. She wants to do this right in front of me now... even asked me today if it's ok to hang out with him afterwork. Question: Should I just be ok with it or should I demand her to choose?

[PachucaSunrise]

PachuaSunrise,

Your post brings back so many emotions and questions that I struggled with a couple of years ago.

 

Sorry if it happened to rattle you a bit, but at the same time, I hope it rattled you in a GOOD way. I hope you're looking back on your situation with a totally different set of eyes, and it sounds as though you are.

 

I'm 2 years and a month out of my A, now. Yay!

 

This is FANTASTIC! Congrats! I'll second that YAY for you!

 

I'm in a relationship with a single man.

 

Now, this is EVEN better news! I'm really happy for you, and I hope he's all that you've been waiting for, and most importantly, DESERVING of all YOU have to offer!

 

I questioned how I could compromise myself and doubted all my beliefs about how to treat others. I beat myself up and felt disgusted with myself and yet I continued for nearly 6 years.

 

It's exhausting and then I came to a crossroad and said regardless of the whys,I'm not cut out for this and I need to get back to my authentic self because my soul feels drained.

 

Wow, 6 years is quite a long time. I can't even imagine. I can totally relate to how you compromised yourself and doubted all your beliefs about how to treat others - I'm at that exact point right now - and as you already know, it's a brutal experience.

 

However, I'm glad to hear that you ended up at that crossroad... And that you got yourself back to where you needed to be. That gives me hope, so thank you for sharing. Like you were at one time, I also feel drained, in every sense of the word, but deep down I know it's only uphill from this point forward. Once I accept that I royally screwed up, I think I'll be in a much better position to begin to TRULY forgive myself. The 'accepting' part is what I'm currently struggling with, but I'm also thankful that at the very least, I am aware of this... As they say, "Knowing is half the battle!"

 

I think that Owl6118, makes some perceptive points as well. When we experience life changing events we do become very vulnerable to choices out of our normal if you will.

 

We may choose to do things self destructive to us, because we feel we are failures. So, when we are going through life altering changes, we aren't ourselves essentially.

 

So yes, taking responsibility is a vital part of healing and is forgiving yourself and allowing yourself to heal and move forward in life.

 

Oh, absolutely. Owl never fails to come through with some incredibly insightful points of view. And just as you have, he expresses his thoughts in such a delicate manner... Firm but fair, always leaving me with many, many helpful ideas to further explore the roots of my inner turmoil.

 

And yes, taking responsibility is crucial - I completely agree with you. Accepting and forgiving are also huge aspects of this healing journey - the most difficult areas for me, personally.

 

I have and I'm looking forward to reading that you are as well.

 

This is really nice to hear. Thank you, Sky. And thank you for sharing your struggles... It puts a big smile on my face knowing that you have overcome such a life-altering experience. Good for you! It also gives me hope that one day I will be able to confidently say I did the same.

 

BIG hugs to you, and I wish you all the best with your guy - it seems as though he's a very lucky man.