The frustration of friendzoning myself.

[TalesoftheWireMonkey]

I've been growing closer to a married co-worker. Might be considered an emotional affair (that's sort of a new concept on me ?).

 

Anyway, I know better than to get physically involved with her.

I enjoy being her friend and being close and doing all the fun and cutesy things we do together (like we make the office coffee together). It's even moved to some outside of work contact.

 

The difficult part is dealing with my own feelings of wanting her. I'm feeling the all too familiar frustration for me of being friendzoned. I don't think she means to do that on purpose because I don't think she ever even thinks of me in that way.

 

I can't turn-up the heat because I don't want it to become something more than friendship despite my feelings and I certainly don't want to tell her how I feel and wreck the friendship. How can I continue but not drive myself crazy?

[RickFox]

You can't. You've moved past friendship by developing feelings and it will tear you apart the longer you try to be the "friend." All these cutesy things you do together and even outside of work, those are red flags things are progressing past just friends. Let's be honest here, you may know better, but that doesn't mean if the moment is right and she slips up and wants you that you won't be right there ready to take her in your arms. Things will happen just that fast and the stronger your feelings grow the less likely you'll refuse her if she wants you

[fellini]

That's precisely how my WS got things going with her co-worker AP. Friends. Walked together to the cafeteria talking about their day, sat together at lunches, then he would or she would buzz to go for a coffee (my WS does not even drink coffee, normally doesn't waste her time taking coffee breaks in the caf, but found herself doing this on a daily basis. Then there were the lets join the excursion to visit a school with all the rest (they work in a Faculty of Education together), then dinners, sitting together, always together, for "department socials", then coffess in coffee shops OUTSIDE of work/work hours... just the two of them. Little walks along the seaside...

A kiss on the lips for her birthday rather than the proper way on the check..

 

THEN he asked her for some "ratitios" which basically means a couple of hours together for sex.

 

BOOM. Long term EA becomes full blown PA. Next thing she knows he is telling her he loves her and trying to get her to leave the marriage...

 

Up to you man! But in my case the EA part went on for a year before anything physical happened. By then the two of them were thick as thieves and even a colleague commented on their "sexual tension" at the lunch table.

[TalesoftheWireMonkey]

I appreciate your warnings, I've been through that before and it happened just as you both described. I thought we were just friends, the next thing I know we were making out after work.

 

The thing that is different with this woman is I Don't sense any "sexual tension " on her part. On that level she seems quite oblivious to me. I don't receive side-long glances. Our eyes never meet. She can walk in the room where I am, never look at me, never acknowledge my presence, grab a stack of papers and off again like I'm furniture.

 

I remember a former co-worker who was quite smitten with me. I would talk with her, sometimes deep conversations and sometimes we would do something outside of work. I was already pretty close to her before I realized she wanted to be more than friends. We were both single but for the life of me I just couldn't find myself physically attracted to her despite our close friendship and conversational chemistry. Actually I found her a little repulsive. I doubt I could have performed even if she had thrown herself at me.

 

I think something similar could be going on here. My guess is my married friend has grown closer to me emotionally but is so un-attracted to me she doesn't even fathom me as a sexual being and that plus her commitment to her marriage has caused her to miss the clues that I'm crazy for her.

 

I've tried ignoring her all day but at some point actual work matters will start a conversation and next thing I know we a laughing and joking. Our office is a small work-team of a dozen people. There's no avoiding her. I've got to get past this somehow?

[RickFox]

I appreciate your warnings, I've been through that before and it happened just as you both described. I thought we were just friends, the next thing I know we were making out after work.

 

The thing that is different with this woman is I Don't sense any "sexual tension " on her part. On that level she seems quite oblivious to me. I don't receive side-long glances. Our eyes never meet. She can walk in the room where I am, never look at me, never acknowledge my presence, grab a stack of papers and off again like I'm furniture.

 

I remember a former co-worker who was quite smitten with me. I would talk with her, sometimes deep conversations and sometimes we would do something outside of work. I was already pretty close to her before I realized she wanted to be more than friends. We were both single but for the life of me I just couldn't find myself physically attracted to her despite our close friendship and conversational chemistry. Actually I found her a little repulsive. I doubt I could have performed even if she had thrown herself at me.

 

I think something similar could be going on here. My guess is my married friend has grown closer to me emotionally but is so un-attracted to me she doesn't even fathom me as a sexual being and that plus her commitment to her marriage has caused her to miss the clues that I'm crazy for her.

 

I've tried ignoring her all day but at some point actual work matters will start a conversation and next thing I know we a laughing and joking. Our office is a small work-team of a dozen people. There's no avoiding her. I've got to get past this somehow?

 

 

When a woman connects with you emotionally, that is where the danger lies. If you think she's not physically attracted to you then it shouldn't be hard to distance yourself from her, keep it strictly business

[TalesoftheWireMonkey]

When a woman connects with you emotionally, that is where the danger lies. If you think she's not physically attracted to you then it shouldn't be hard to distance yourself from her, keep it strictly business

 

There is no strictly business in our office. It's a touchy-feely place with lot's of insider joking and lax HR rules. I believe the leader once described us all like brothers and sisters.

If I tried to cut off contact with my friend it would lead to a lot of are you ok, is something wrong, have I done something to make you mad sorts of questioning. From her and everyone else.

 

I think my frustration is feeling like I'm being led on (unintentionally). I'd like her to acknowledge that she realizes I have feeling for her but we can't do anything about it. Then we could both agree that we need to not be so chummy and so intimate.

[RickFox]

There is no strictly business in our office. It's a touchy-feely place with lot's of insider joking and lax HR rules. I believe the leader once for the time being described us all like brothers and sisters.

If I tried to cut off contact with my friend it would lead to a lot of are you ok, is something wrong, have I done something to make you mad sorts of questioning. From her and everyone else.

 

I think my frustration is feeling like I'm being led on (unintentionally). I'd like her to acknowledge that she realizes I have feeling for her but we can't do anything about it. Then we could both agree that we need to not be so chummy and so intimate.

 

 

I'm not sure she truly realizes the connection she's building with you.....and may not until it gets too hot in the kitchen. You may just have to acknowledge it for the both of you

For the time being.

[Rig88]

I know that as a guy , being friend zoned is utterly frustrating but in this circumstance you've got to try and not take it so personally. With her being married , it's going to very difficult for her to treat you in any other way. Unless you're both willing to start a full blow affair , in which you'll be a dirty secret and she may never end her marriage you , damaging your self esteem even more. It could potentially be a very messy situation. Sit back and really think about out , do you really like her that much or is it a case of us guys always chasing what we can't have?

[johnpatric]

Sorry for negative opinion but I think you have to stop this, you can't continue this relationship, because its not good for both of you, you can't see the disadvantage of this relationship because you are now enjoying this relationship, but have you thought about that when her husband know about this what will happen that time, or when you will be in relationship with someone else that time your partner know about this relationship so it will create problems for you so its better to stay away..

[whatatangledweb]

There is no strictly business in our office. It's a touchy-feely place with lot's of insider joking and lax HR rules. I believe the leader once described us all like brothers and sisters.

If I tried to cut off contact with my friend it would lead to a lot of are you ok, is something wrong, have I done something to make you mad sorts of questioning. From her and everyone else.

 

I think my frustration is feeling like I'm being led on (unintentionally). I'd like her to acknowledge that she realizes I have feeling for her but we can't do anything about it. Then we could both agree that we need to not be so chummy and so intimate.

 

To me it appears she has no idea that you have feelings for her other than being friends. She is acting like she would with someone she is friendly with nothing more. You could tell her how you feel but I would think she would avoid you after that. A married person who has boundaries can be friendly with the opposite sex. That same person when told it was deeper for the other person, shuts down the friendly part.

[TalesoftheWireMonkey]

I'm not sure she truly realizes the connection she's building with you.....and may not until it gets too hot in the kitchen. You may just have to acknowledge it for the both of you

For the time being.

I've thought of this, Of telling her that we are getting too close at least while she is emotionally vulnerable. I know this will create an ill wind around the office though.

To me it appears she has no idea that you have feelings for her other than being friends.

That's the crux of the problem right there. Whether I should make it known there is a problem and destroy the friendship or keep it covered up and lose my mind.

 

Sorry for negative opinion but I think you have to stop this, you can't continue this relationship, because its not good for both of you, you can't see the disadvantage of this relationship because you are now enjoying this relationship, but have you thought about that when her husband know about this what will happen that time, or when you will be in relationship with someone else that time your partner know about this relationship so it will create problems for you so its better to stay away.

I don't find your reply negative at all. I appreciate the input. I don't know if her husband would even care at this point. She makes it sound like the marriage is on the rocks, which is I think one reason she has gotten closer to me. Still I'm only hearing her side of the story. who knows what goes on between a man and a woman under a roof.

Sit back and really think about out , do you really like her that much or is it a case of us guys always chasing what we can't have?

No doubt an element of that. Also, just the biological thing that happens when men and women are in close quarters. There's also the feeling that I'm having a better time with her loading the copy machine than I have had with the girls I've dated doing something "fun".

 

Thank you all for taking the time to offer your help .

[Owl]

Here's my suggestion. Back off. Stop LETTING YOURSELF fantasize about being with her in any capacity. When you start...stop. Stop spending ANY extra time with her. Cut your interactions with her back...stop investing in the fantasy, stop investing in the actual interactions with her...and your feelings will decrease over time.

 

This has grown bigger than it really is because you've fed it in your mind.

[MissBee]

I've been growing closer to a married co-worker. Might be considered an emotional affair (that's sort of a new concept on me ?).

 

Anyway, I know better than to get physically involved with her.

I enjoy being her friend and being close and doing all the fun and cutesy things we do together (like we make the office coffee together). It's even moved to some outside of work contact.

 

The difficult part is dealing with my own feelings of wanting her. I'm feeling the all too familiar frustration for me of being friendzoned. I don't think she means to do that on purpose because I don't think she ever even thinks of me in that way.

 

I can't turn-up the heat because I don't want it to become something more than friendship despite my feelings and I certainly don't want to tell her how I feel and wreck the friendship. How can I continue but not drive myself crazy?

 

You can't.

 

That's the cake-eating wish...to have two incompatible things work out well together. You can't though.

 

Keep it professional and cordial and put your emotional energies elsewhere as you will only continue to frustrate yourself or cross the line if you attempt to continue this "cutesy" friendship with this married woman.

[TalesoftheWireMonkey]

This has grown bigger than it really is because you've fed it in your mind.

Isn't this the truth of any and all relationships?

We never actually know our lovers, we fall in love with our mental construct of them.

We start of with a small sliver of a person usually their appearance but sometimes it's something more. His power, her sense of humor, his confidence, her grace and on and on. Still we never know the whole person.

 

Then we make compromises. " He's shorter than I like but it will be ok."" She's kind of flat-chested but that shouldn't matter. " "I wish they had the same religion as me but oh well."and we build a fantasy person in our mind to fulfill our needs and desires then we mold it around the reality of the person in our life.

 

Intoxicated with the rush of hormones and the ego strokes we fail to gather the complexities of a real human we are too busy being dazzled.

Like a simpleton who points at the sky and says "That's my favorite cloud, I'll always love it because I know it will never change shape or blow away." We fail to realize humans are ever evolving, new experiences, new learning, unexpected occurrences all contribute to who we are and who we become and our understanding of ourselves. Likewise our bodies grow and decline and alter.

 

Then there's the complicating factor of how much of the true self your lover ever lets you see. Some people live perpetually on the stage each person in their lives spouse,child parent, friend is an audience of one for the prepared and rehearsed performance of a lifetime.

 

The ones that make it to the end are either the ones that can accept that change is inevitable and deal with the disappointment and disillusion as it comes and accept their portion. That's how people used to live. Nowadays we all think that the perfect fantasy/need fulfiller is just waiting in line all we have to do is step away from this current poor decision.

 

The other that makes it are the ones that have a lover that is a master of sustaining their spell of enchantment. Bewitched and beguiled to the very end. These are the sweet old men who tells you that their wizened and tired old wife is just as beautiful as the day he married her 60 years ago.

 

We always feed love in our own minds that's the place it exists.

[Owl]

So now you know where you need to make the changes.

 

What are you going to change?

[TalesoftheWireMonkey]

So now you know where you need to make the changes.

 

What are you going to change?

 

As I wrote earlier, about all I can do is try to pull back on contact a little.

 

For discretion's sake I don't want to go into too much detail of our work situation but there is no real avoiding her. We are at times during the day cheek to jowl and reaching over each other.

 

Cutting off all but non-essential verbal contact would be too obvious that something is wrong. We have on-going projects together that I can't drop out of in the middle.

 

As far as how it's built-up in my mind - there's a lot of real world experience there to have to re-interpret as fantasy?

 

I think it's starting to be obvious. There's another co-worker that has made side-comments to me about repeating mistakes.

Since she's cryptic it could be she's alluding to something else but she witnessed my last workplace affair and I think I'm doing my job so this is probably what she means?

 

I've tried really hard to not think of her in a sexual or romantic way.

Part of the problem is I've sworn off dating all together. I hope to never be in a relationship again with her or with anyone.

 

As any dieter can tell you, the harder you concentrate on squelching cravings for something that's right in front of you the more that thing becomes the focus of your every waking thought.

[RickFox]

Curious, why have you sworn off dating?

[TalesoftheWireMonkey]

Curious, why have you sworn off dating?

That could start a thread all by itself or perhaps a new section.

 

I'm exhausted with drama and insincerity. I tried to be myself for years and was rejected,ridiculed even attacked. I learned to subterfuge and keep my true self hidden and had wild success. who needs that, it was ultimately a rejection of the true me anyway.

 

Divorce is becoming the norm and I've seen too many men lose their homes, access to their children and their earnings.

 

look around this website, it's full of confused, unhappy, frustrated and miserable people.

Mating is a natural process for every other species on the planet but we modern humans have turned it into this gommed-up mess.

 

I'm learned/learning to find contentment and validation without having to throw myself into the mire.

[fellini]

The difference between limerance and love is that limerance is not recriprocated, it's just imagined to be reciprocated. I can do all the things you say below fantasizing about say, Haley Berry. But none of it is going to get me any closer to her as a partner. Even if I worked in the film business, worked on the set for her next movie, none of this is love because it is my feeding my imagination and creating HER PART IN IT. In love, the mirror is of the OTHER, and that makes all the difference.

 

 

Isn't this the truth of any and all relationships?

We never actually know our lovers, we fall in love with our mental construct of them.

We start of with a small sliver of a person usually their appearance but sometimes it's something more. His power, her sense of humor, his confidence, her grace and on and on. Still we never know the whole person.

 

Then we make compromises. " He's shorter than I like but it will be ok."" She's kind of flat-chested but that shouldn't matter. " "I wish they had the same religion as me but oh well."and we build a fantasy person in our mind to fulfill our needs and desires then we mold it around the reality of the person in our life.

 

Intoxicated with the rush of hormones and the ego strokes we fail to gather the complexities of a real human we are too busy being dazzled.

Like a simpleton who points at the sky and says "That's my favorite cloud, I'll always love it because I know it will never change shape or blow away." We fail to realize humans are ever evolving, new experiences, new learning, unexpected occurrences all contribute to who we are and who we become and our understanding of ourselves. Likewise our bodies grow and decline and alter.

 

Then there's the complicating factor of how much of the true self your lover ever lets you see. Some people live perpetually on the stage each person in their lives spouse,child parent, friend is an audience of one for the prepared and rehearsed performance of a lifetime.

 

The ones that make it to the end are either the ones that can accept that change is inevitable and deal with the disappointment and disillusion as it comes and accept their portion. That's how people used to live. Nowadays we all think that the perfect fantasy/need fulfiller is just waiting in line all we have to do is step away from this current poor decision.

 

The other that makes it are the ones that have a lover that is a master of sustaining their spell of enchantment. Bewitched and beguiled to the very end. These are the sweet old men who tells you that their wizened and tired old wife is just as beautiful as the day he married her 60 years ago.

 

We always feed love in our own minds that's the place it exists.

Edited May 17, 2014 by fellini

[TalesoftheWireMonkey]

The difference between limerance and love is that limerance is not recriprocated, it's just imagined to be reciprocated. I can do all the things you say below fantasizing about say, Haley Berry. But none of it is going to get me any closer to her as a partner. Even if I worked in the film business, worked on the set for her next movie, none of this is love because it is my feeding my imagination and creating HER PART IN IT. In love, the mirror is of the OTHER, and that makes all the difference.

 

that's just my point fellini.

Anymore, I think so many of us just experience mutual limerance instead of real love.

 

You hear it in how people describe the aftermath.

He/she wasn't the person I thought they were.

The relationship wasn't what I thought it was going to be.

One day I woke-up and realized I didn't love them anymore.

I thought he she would be the one.

 

It's a narcissistic age we are living in.

[preraph]

Let me tell you an observation I've made over the years with married women. To male attention in the workplace, they respond a couple of ways. Some feel free to totally tease and encourage male attention because they know they have the automatic out of being married if things get out of hand to their detriment. "He knew I was married and just kept coming after me." Meanwhile before it reaches that stage, it may get her some favoritism from the male if he's above her, but it will eventually blow up if she doesn't put out, which is when she has that ironclad "He knew I was married" to fall back on.

 

Other married women in the workplace secretly grit their teeth about any unseemly male attention in the workplace because they know if they don't respond, it can negatively affect their career. They feel they are walking a tightrope of being nice and polite but not too nice as they try to keep a lid on the guy without insulting him. I think that may be what you have here.

 

The third scenario is she's married and open to screwing around. This is the only scenario in which you're going to get laid. And if she's like that, why would you bother? She might actually be in a bad marriage looking for a permanent way out, or she might just be unfaithful. You're probably not up for #1 and you shouldn't be up for #2 because then she'll do the same thing to you.

[Speakingofwhich]

I'm not so sure she doesn't realize what's going on. Especially since there's out-of-work contact. And also since she's been talking about her marriage not being solid, or was it that her husband isn't treating her well? Something like that.

 

From what I've observed mentioning a problem in one's marriage to a person of the opposite sex is often a way of getting closer with that person, even if the person dropping the hint is doing it subconsciously.

 

Of course, I have no way of knowing how she feels with the small amount of information you've posted but I really think she senses how you feel and enjoys it and either shares your feelings or is leading you on. But, I don't think she's as oblivious to your feelings as you may think she is.

 

Judging from the way you express yourself in your posts, I can't imagine that she wouldn't be drawn to you. Personally, I think the feelings between the two of you are very possibly mutual.

[fellini]

that's just my point fellini.

Anymore, I think so many of us just experience mutual limerance instead of real love.

 

You hear it in how people describe the aftermath.

He/she wasn't the person I thought they were.

The relationship wasn't what I thought it was going to be.

One day I woke-up and realized I didn't love them anymore.

I thought he she would be the one.

 

It's a narcissistic age we are living in.

 

But you're missing the point about reciprocity. In fantasy we do not need to engage the other. In love we do. So although limerance and love taken into consideration from one side might actually just resemble each other, they are not. Because when two people interact they are dancing, and although you rightly understand the imaginative aspects that are enacted, you fail to mention the deeper connections which begin to grow, which begin to form in memory, smell, taste, touch, sound, all that is also the "other". On one hand we can say, of course, love is only and utterly in our heads. But that's a neurological fact, because the brain just happens to be the emotional, intellectual, social motor and location of self.

 

But love is also a MAP. It has i's own geography.

Love is also a meal made by chefs. It is an act of construction between two people with specific ingredients

Love is also a game - there is physicality. Skin rubbing on skin. Fingers exploring and mapping the unknown into parts of the mind that you do not get to dismiss as "fantasy", "narcissism" or purely "illusion"

Love is also a strategy. One negotiates and makes one's moves in relation always to another's strategies and moves. So love always includes the complicity and cooperation and collaboration of another, and thus can never be relegated to some single zone in an MRC.

 

To see how this works one could take a close look at either/both of these excellent movies:

 

Pefect Sense: A romantic science fiction that explores what happens to people as one by one their senses are shut down.

 

Eternal Sunshine of the spotless mind: The attempt to erase love experiences in people who suffer a break up. We see how intertwined our love is with other experiences, senses, parts of self that cannot be reduced to narcissitic self-deception and ego.

[TalesoftheWireMonkey]

preraph,

I agree with your assessments but I think there is room for some more possibilities.

Sometimes a married woman is so secure in her marriage she simply makes very good friends with a male co-worker because they are spending five days a week together. Sometimes she may be so sexually satisfied that flirtatious statements from other males don't register with her.

 

No, I'm not looking to get laid and I don't think that's her interest. She is looking to leave her husband but I don't think she sees me as an avenue of change in that direction.

 

Speakingofwhich,

It's possible she has some feelings for me, maybe she is holding back. Let me say to you and peragh both, I've had many crushes throughout my life that when I revealed my feelings sometimes after a year or more, it was met by complete surprise and astonishment. I usually hear something like "I thought you were just being friendly, I never dreamed you actually liked me in that way."

 

I often find this happens with women who grew up the one girl in a house full of boys, as this woman in question has. She may even see me as an older brother figure or a father figure. So erotic thoughts of me would be as incestuously distateful to her as they would be of having them about her actual relations.

 

Judging from the way you express yourself in your posts, I can't imagine that she wouldn't be drawn to you.

Thanks, (Hey, are you coming on to me!?!) Ha,ha,ha

 

fellini,

I must apologize. I have read your post over several times and I can't grasp what you are getting at?

 

I will tell you I don't really care for the term limerance. It's not recognized in the DSM and I think it's a needlessly complicated term for a concept we've had for centuries.

 

Namely "romantic love", infatuation or simply a crush.

 

However, I have seen Eternal Sunshine several times but I think it backs up what I am saying.

You see the two main characters first drawn together by the lure of romantic exhilaration but after some months the thrill wears away and they find there are more things they don't like about each other than they do like.

In fact they found even the memory of the experience so unappealing they opt to have their memories erased.

There are many posts here by people that would like to have that same option. How do I get over...

[Speakingofwhich]

Speakingofwhich,

It's possible she has some feelings for me, maybe she is holding back. Let me say to you and peragh both, I've had many crushes throughout my life that when I revealed my feelings sometimes after a year or more, it was met by complete surprise and astonishment. I usually hear something like "I thought you were just being friendly, I never dreamed you actually liked

 

Probably you are in tune with the behaviors that would clue others in to your feelings so you are able to check those behaviors in yourself before you do them. Thus, no one ever knows. Generally men don't do this successfully, imho. Possibly, then, this woman in question truly doesn't realize your feelings if you are able to keep your feelings/behaviors under wraps.

 

I often find this happens with women who grew up the one girl in a house full of boys, as this woman in question has. She may even see me as an older brother figure or a father figure. So erotic thoughts of me would be as incestuously distateful to her as they would be of having them about her actual relations.

 

Thanks, (Hey, are you coming on to me!?!) Ha,ha,ha

Yeah, I know, , lol. I rewrote the comment several times trying to make it as bland as possible. I wanted to weigh in as to why I thought she probably had feelings for you. I do really like your posts but am involved in an R now so not trying to get anything else started. Your response was funny, though!

 

..........